[ QUOTE ]
Just because you having heard of Freedom Corps fighting any of these other factions doesnt mean it hasnt happened.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but to me it does. I have six heroes in the 40s. Some have done content the others have not. None have ever experienced anyone but their teammates fighting the threats to Paragon City.
That fact that it is not presented to me makes it not so for all practical purposes. Because it has not been there in the presentation made my heroes feel more independant - more meaningful in my eyes.
To say it was always there when it was never presented this way is, to me, a serious "retcon". Even if it was on paper somewhere.
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot on the hero side that hadnt been mentioned until COV came out. Take for example the Wyvern or the Legacy Chain. Not one mention in COH but they are fully fleshed out organizations helping to fight the evil forces in the Rogue Isles.
[/ QUOTE ]
The key is that they focus on the RI. And, honestly, neither has the scope of Longbow. They don't have "real" heroes among their ranks. Like most villain groups in CoH, they are mostly schmucks with advanced training and nice toys/powers. The backstory of Longbow bosses makes clear that they are approximates of full-blown heroes of Paragon City. And honestly, some of them hit about as hard.
In a previous post Longbow was being presented as a reason that Arachnos must exist, and that most villains must bend to Arachnos' will in some lesser or greater extent. I contend that this notion is overly restrictive to our freedom of character development. And I think the "laser cyborg" analogy in a fantasy setting is overboard. All we want is to not be lackeys.
[ QUOTE ]
Something else that is bothering me about all of this is that just because it says the choice is permanent when it is made doesnt mean down the road you cant make ANOTHER choice!!!
I mean I really hope for more content past level 50 and who knows maybe then you can tell ALL the patrons to kiss your "you know what" and punk out Lord Recluse himself!! I really think everyone just needs to sit back and let the Devs play this one out because I believe we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Getting something like that is exactly what we're asking for. Because we have been told, in plain white text, that it's permanent. Permanent: "Lasting or remaining without essential change. Not expected to change in status, condition, or place."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
There has to be some sort of code for taking out and replacing a badge. At least, the Croatoa Task Force mission against the Respawning Witch gives the impression of (each defeat changes/replaces the previous badge).
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to say that if they made it work like this I'd be perfectly happy. The respec badges also (appear) to work this way - pre respec you have one badge; post respec you have a different one.
I would consider this an odd interpretation of "permanent," but it'd make me happy.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
It could be that was just my impression. The way the city is set up with government services for all the heroes and Freedom Corps personnel guiding the new heroes and the level ranks and such forth, I'd always thought we were supposed to be FC.
In any case, even if the heroes aren't FC, the original point was that they're still organized through the city government, so a completely disorganized villain "civilization" out on the Isles would get plastered unless there was some sort of unifying element.
[/ QUOTE ]
In contrast, I have always taken that as nothing more than a legalized document of deputization. For all that it is a modern city, the conditions in Paragon (and possibly many parts of the post-invasion world) are not really comparable to a real world city. Essentially, to stem the tide of chaos and destruction, the city is deputizing superpowered beings of any stripe. There are clearly implied rules of such deputization, and abusing the power granted would almost certainly cause investigation and possible arrest by other supers. (See the original CoH comic.) However, it's always been apparent to me that such deputized supers are free to pursue justice in the way and times they see fit, without reporting up to anyone except to "turn in" "suspects" they have "arrested".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: And, regardless, don't you think it's reasonable to assume they could get a decent number of heroes to organize together long enough to sponge clean the Rogue Isles if the villains were living in complete anarchy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, given Heroes tendancy to fight amongst themselves. Heck, the city won't even let them congregate in groups bigger than 75. 
But seriously, no. They have no jurisdiction in the Rogue Isles, so alot of the organisations wouldn't join in, and may indeed be obligated to stop the heoroes that did agree. Also, all the heroes in paragon can't wipe out various street gangs, bits of their own city are entirely overrun with alien invaders, genetically modified plants and space facists. If they can't get their own house in order, what chance would they have in hostile territory.
The thing is this: The patron thing does make sense, given the background of the Rogue Isles and the role the Devs seems to want to put the players into. Its just that, I really don't like that role and setting much.
City of Heroes wasn't about an idylic paradise where everyone is a heroes. Its a den of scum and villainy, with evil everywhere you look. And you are a lone champion, fighting against it to save people.
City of Villains really is a city full of villains. Its a den of scum and villainy, with evil everywhere you look. And you are just a little cog in the machinery of evil that runs the place. You get paid in non-existtant money, and are entirely at the will of Arachnos
That is, in my opinion of course, one of the major problems with CoV, and why I consider CoH to be the better game (in terms of making you feel like the thing in the title).
EDIT: extended up descriptions of both games
Always remember, we were Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
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It could be that was just my impression. The way the city is set up with government services for all the heroes and Freedom Corps personnel guiding the new heroes and the level ranks and such forth, I'd always thought we were supposed to be FC.
In any case, even if the heroes aren't FC, the original point was that they're still organized through the city government, so a completely disorganized villain "civilization" out on the Isles would get plastered unless there was some sort of unifying element.
[/ QUOTE ]
In contrast, I have always taken that as nothing more than a legalized document of deputization. For all that it is a modern city, the conditions in Paragon (and possibly many parts of the post-invasion world) are not really comparable to a real world city. Essentially, to stem the tide of chaos and destruction, the city is deputizing superpowered beings of any stripe. There are clearly implied rules of such deputization, and abusing the power granted would almost certainly cause investigation and possible arrest by other supers. (See the original CoH comic.) However, it's always been apparent to me that such deputized supers are free to pursue justice in the way and times they see fit, without reporting up to anyone except to "turn in" "suspects" they have "arrested".
[/ QUOTE ]
However, Statesman (Marcus Cole) has been known to look with disapproval and seek policy changes from City Hall when heroes get a little too enthusiatic about villain destruction.
Witness the 2005 Portal Closing Ordinance, where heroes received no further points towards their security level for continuously fighting the demons that spawned from the Circle of Thorns portals. As Statesman famously said at the time, "The heroes of Paragon must close these infernal portals, not become bounty hunters in search of prestige and influence with the City."
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Something else that is bothering me about all of this is that just because it says the choice is permanent when it is made doesnt mean down the road you cant make ANOTHER choice!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean besides that fact that Positron stated it was permanent as is primary, secondary, origin, etc. and you could not respec out of it?
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: Some sets will be better than others, for various subjective reasons.
[/ QUOTE ]
I still think this is the assumption. If all the sets are the same except for one "signature power", which is the same power for all sets with different names (think Assassin's <insert whatever here>
, then they are all exactly the same.
Now then, if you decide you hate the way Mako's shark looks, well...you'd need to decide that on test, and fairly quickly. And that would kind of suck. But it wouldn't make one set better than another.
The hero org. vs. villain org. argument is an interesting one....maybe someone should start a different thread for it.
In case no one does, here's my initial thoughts on it:
Heroes belonging to an overarching organization is really no big deal. Casually aligning yourself with said organization is perfectly acceptable, since basically, all hero organizations have the same goal: fighting evil.
So, whether Superman stops a robbery for the good of the citizenry, or in the name of the JLA, doesn't really matter, since he's performing the duties of a hero either way.
Villain groups are different, IMO, since the goal of the organizations are usually not as simple as "fighting good". Instead, villain organizations goal's are personal happiness though any means(evil means being the easiest). Following this philosophy, any villain that joins an organization with a villainous head, *should* be looking to promote the goals of the organization OVER their personal ones. If not, then they shouldn't join up.
So, if Destro joins COBRA, then robs banks for his own personal gain, while letting COBRA'S coffers dry up, he's not fulfilling his duty, and should be thrown out!
Back to CoH/CoV: As heroes, whether we work for Freedom Corps or not, our actions are fine, as they live up to the ideals of that org. As villains, if we're working for Arachnos, or any of its main lts., and our actions aren't primarily in their interest, we probably shouldn't be joining them, and they shouldn't have us.
Interesting tangent on this topic.....nice job to whoever started it. 
I like that the choices are permanent. I like that they come with story content geared towards the choice you make. I like that they will allow you to make an educated choice in-game without ever taking a look at the forums or Test Server if you don't want to.
You just have to consider your choice before you make it. Shocking concept, I know. Kudos to the design guys who came up with this, I'm dying to get my grubby little paws on it!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In City of Villains, we're being relegated to be lackeys of the lackeys. How fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can look at it that way. You could also look at it as one of the handful of villains who sit at the top of the Arachnos hierarchy taking a personal interest in you, as you've come to their attention to the point where they are trying to recruit you into their own camps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, we're the middle managers of evil.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In City of Villains, we're being relegated to be lackeys of the lackeys. How fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can look at it that way. You could also look at it as one of the handful of villains who sit at the top of the Arachnos hierarchy taking a personal interest in you, as you've come to their attention to the point where they are trying to recruit you into their own camps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, we're the middle managers of evil.
[/ QUOTE ]
First ones to go when the organization downsizes!
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
You just have to consider your choice before you make it. Shocking concept, I know. Kudos to the design guys who came up with this, I'm dying to get my grubby little paws on it!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. You stick with the permanent choice when either they change either your PPPs or some other power that synergized well with your choice of PPP (thus driving that choice). I'll stick with keeping my choices reversible - just like heroes can, and just like both heroes and villains can for every other pool choice in the game.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In City of Villains, we're being relegated to be lackeys of the lackeys. How fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can look at it that way. You could also look at it as one of the handful of villains who sit at the top of the Arachnos hierarchy taking a personal interest in you, as you've come to their attention to the point where they are trying to recruit you into their own camps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, we're the middle managers of evil.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, someone has to fill out Major Bludd's travel vouchers.
Let us not forget the Federal Bureau of Superpowered Affairs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just have to consider your choice before you make it. Shocking concept, I know. Kudos to the design guys who came up with this, I'm dying to get my grubby little paws on it!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. You stick with the permanent choice when either they change either your PPPs or some other power that synergized well with your choice of PPP (thus driving that choice). I'll stick with keeping my choices reversible - just like heroes can, and just like both heroes and villains can for every other pool choice in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said. Consider your choices carefully.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just have to consider your choice before you make it. Shocking concept, I know. Kudos to the design guys who came up with this, I'm dying to get my grubby little paws on it!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. You stick with the permanent choice when either they change either your PPPs or some other power that synergized well with your choice of PPP (thus driving that choice). I'll stick with keeping my choices reversible - just like heroes can, and just like both heroes and villains can for every other pool choice in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said. Consider your choices carefully.
[/ QUOTE ]
Choices can be considered as carefully as possible, none of us know what's going to be changed down the line.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just have to consider your choice before you make it. Shocking concept, I know. Kudos to the design guys who came up with this, I'm dying to get my grubby little paws on it!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. You stick with the permanent choice when either they change either your PPPs or some other power that synergized well with your choice of PPP (thus driving that choice). I'll stick with keeping my choices reversible - just like heroes can, and just like both heroes and villains can for every other pool choice in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said. Consider your choices carefully.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but your outlook really bugs me as immensely selfish. "I get what you want, so tough for you." Nor do I think my own perspective is just the same selfishness from the other side. Your preference actively removes choice from my character process, while my preference removes a story-based restriction from yours. It may be a canon-based restriction you feel is appropriate, but I can't see your "loss" if you didn't get this as equivalent to my own. After all, you could always imagine this was the backstory for your power choices. I, on the other hand, am disallowed from imagining anything else.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question.
I have characters with the Clan of the Black Scorpion Badge, back when the Strike Forces were all giving out bugged badges.
Am I screwed/forced to take Black Scorpion now?
[/ QUOTE ]
Whiner.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love this game. I almost never complain. But this time I feel I need to.
Patron choice being permanent? Bad, but perhaps necessary.
Having to chose a patron? Very bad. I'm sorry, but my Mastermind is an evil genius with plans of world-domination and an ego the size of a galaxy. In-character, he would never, NEVER take a patron. From the sound of it, I'm going to have to break character. I want to play an archvillain who's trying to take over, not an apprentice of a bigger villain!
[/ QUOTE ]
You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.
[/ QUOTE ]
You would think some villains never heard of Back Stabbing.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
[ QUOTE ]
It's Cobra, a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world. It's Hydra. It's AIM
[/ QUOTE ]
I KNEW IT! AOL Instant Messenger is an evil organization bent on destruction and world domination!
On a side note (and not made in reference to the poster I'm replying to): I love how, on these boards, the Student/Teacher or Partner relationships are automatically seen as becoming someone's lackey.
If anyone really needs a real example of what I'm saying to grasp the concept, I'll be happy to present a couple.
- If you're mowing someone's lawn for cash, does this make you the landowner's lackey?
- If you're in a self-defense class, learning techniques to better defend/empower yourself, are you the teacher's lackey?
- If you merge your group of friends with a friend's group of friends, does that make you your friend's lackey?
I'm not defending the permanence of the Patron Pools, but I AM against the slinging of the term Lackey for no reason. After all, noone stated that you have to SERVE these people.
I do agree. You'll notice I've stuck to the term "patronage". I am not so down on the "story devs" that I think they can't make it something other than a true master/lackey relationship.
Nonetheless, running around whipping off some power with a visual manifestation unique or characteristic of, say, Ghost Widow or Captain Mako still makes clear a distinct association with those persons/beings. ("Spirit Sharks" comes to mind.) To me it smacks of the idea that they "gave" me that power. I've disliked that aspect of the Patron Powers from the moment they were first revealed to us. For someone like me, finding out the plot tie-in additionally fixes the pool choice just abrades an already sore spot.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
King Arthur had Excalibur on loan from the Lady of the Lake but that didn't make her the star of the show...?
[ QUOTE ]
King Arthur had Excalibur on loan from the Lady of the Lake but that didn't make her the star of the show...?
[/ QUOTE ]
How many people associate the sword with the Lady? The thematic ideal of something like this has a life of its own, separate from the facts of the matter. The thematic ideal of Excalibur (a completely unique item as far as the legend tells us) has evolved such that it is associated with Arthur.
On the other hand, every Tom, Dick, and Destroyer associated with Captain Mako will have Spirit Sharks (unless the power sucks). The imagery of someone with that power will be "that's an associate of Mako's". This is reinforced not only by the fact that it will look like it's a "Mako power", but by the fact that anyone else who chooses the same affiliation will probably have that same power. By making a power with an association the common element, the characters with the power become less important to the imagery and the unifying element becomes Mako instead.
Compare this with hero EPPs. Anyone of a given AT might have a given EPP, and it might be readily recognized when used, but it has no clear association. It is easy to simply assume that the hero mastered/obtained/learened a new trick, lending credence to the notion of the hero as a self-contained entity. If anyone wants their backstory to be that they were "given" their EPPs or have them through a relationship with an Entity or a more mighty hero, they are free to do so. It's not required. PPP's require that relationship.
There was nothing about Excalibur that lent to an association with the Lady, and there was no other Excalibur floating around for people to compare and think "I wonder if those two swords are related."
Similarly, nearly every Stone Armor character probably gets Granite Armor, there is no common association to an external entity tied to that. Everyone knows Granite Armor when they see it. If Granite Armor was a power firmly associated with some patron character, everyone would immediately associate anyone using it with that (story) character.
Finally, the general populace did not meaningfully knew about the Lady and her issuance of Excalibur into Arthur's trust. Unlike this, everyone on the Rogue Isles knows about Recluse's lieutenants, and would likely immediately recognize any power that clearly suggests their influence. ("Spirit Sharks.")
So I think your analogy with Excalibur lacks strength.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Why do people think throwing analogies at a discussion is a valid argument tactic?
Ugh.
Fine, I'll join in on this garbage too.
If someone tells me a week in advance that they're going to throw a hot, steamy bag of dog [censored] in my face, I don't have to actually wait until they do it to know that I'm not going to like it.
Therefore, debating the Pros/Cons of this system before it hits Test is perfectly valid.
There. There's another retarded analogy for this thread stream.
[ QUOTE ]
Not really, theres very little organisation within CoH. They help get new heroes on their feet, but after that they are left pretty much to themselves, to do as they see fit. theres certainly no indication that you work for any particular organisation (other than the Rule of Law), nor are you beholden to any organisation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno 'bout that. It seems to me the heroes have ties to the city. As examples, supergroups are regulated through City Hall, capes are an honor bestowed by the city rep and you respec with Jack Wolfe at the Freedom Corps building in Galaxy City.
EDIT: And, regardless, don't you think it's reasonable to assume they could get a decent number of heroes to organize together long enough to sponge clean the Rogue Isles if the villains were living in complete anarchy?