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Why do people think throwing analogies at a discussion is a valid argument tactic?
Ugh.
Fine, I'll join in on this garbage too.
If someone tells me a week in advance that they're going to throw a hot, steamy bag of dog [censored] in my face, I don't have to actually wait until they do it to know that I'm not going to like it.
Therefore, debating the Pros/Cons of this system before it hits Test is perfectly valid.
There. There's another retarded analogy for this thread stream.
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Now someone will argue that your analogy is invalid and about six posts down the line everyone will forget what they were mad about in the first place! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Heh. I'll assume that wasn't really directed at me. 
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Opps... haha, no not you. 
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King Arthur had Excalibur on loan from the Lady of the Lake but that didn't make her the star of the show...?
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How many people associate the sword with the Lady? The thematic ideal of something like this has a life of its own, separate from the facts of the matter. The thematic ideal of Excalibur (a completely unique item as far as the legend tells us) has evolved such that it is associated with Arthur.
On the other hand, every Tom, Dick, and Destroyer associated with Captain Mako will have Spirit Sharks (unless the power sucks). The imagery of someone with that power will be "that's an associate of Mako's". This is reinforced not only by the fact that it will look like it's a "Mako power", but by the fact that anyone else who chooses the same affiliation will probably have that same power. By making a power with an association the common element, the characters with the power become less important to the imagery and the unifying element becomes Mako instead.
Compare this with hero EPPs. Anyone of a given AT might have a given EPP, and it might be readily recognized when used, but it has no clear association. It is easy to simply assume that the hero mastered/obtained/learened a new trick, lending credence to the notion of the hero as a self-contained entity. If anyone wants their backstory to be that they were "given" their EPPs or have them through a relationship with an Entity or a more mighty hero, they are free to do so. It's not required. PPP's require that relationship.
There was nothing about Excalibur that lent to an association with the Lady, and there was no other Excalibur floating around for people to compare and think "I wonder if those two swords are related."
Similarly, nearly every Stone Armor character probably gets Granite Armor, there is no common association to an external entity tied to that. Everyone knows Granite Armor when they see it. If Granite Armor was a power firmly associated with some patron character, everyone would immediately associate anyone using it with that (story) character.
Finally, the general populace did not meaningfully knew about the Lady and her issuance of Excalibur into Arthur's trust. Unlike this, everyone on the Rogue Isles knows about Recluse's lieutenants, and would likely immediately recognize any power that clearly suggests their influence. ("Spirit Sharks.")
So I think your analogy with Excalibur lacks strength.
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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
It might not be for you, but that's is personal preference.
I wonder if this is to foster some factionalism (for PvP and PvE content conflict) that might arise in the future?
Lord Recluse "disappears" in the future and his lackeys try to take over as head honcho?
Still here, even after all this time!
Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
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I'm not sure you grokked my point. The point was not that the Lady was irrelevant. The point is that the "power" of Excalibur was not associated primarily with the Lady in the popular gestalt. If you say "Excalibur is the sword of...?" to someone, how many people do you really think would reply "The Lady of the Lake!" Sure, some erudite respondants would, but I feel quite certain that most people would say "King Arthur".
The analogy is weak because:
a) Excalibur was unique, making it easy to associate its qualities with the wielder and not it's "source".
b) The true source of the sword was not known to many people.
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It might not be for you, but that's is personal preference.
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In light of the above, I very much fail to see how this is a matter of personal preference. I find it very much a matter of logic.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think many people might look at the Excalibur as the equivalent of getting a temp power at the end of a storyarc or perhaps an Accolade ability.
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I wonder if this is to foster some factionalism (for PvP and PvE content conflict) that might arise in the future?
Lord Recluse "disappears" in the future and his lackeys try to take over as head honcho?
[/ QUOTE ]
You might be right about the factionalism, but I'm thinking that Recluse is here to stay for the foreseeable future. It'd be narratively compelling for him to disappear and return months later in a narrative sense, but looking at the big picture, the company would probably be loathe in doing it because Recluse is so central to everything that goes on in the Rogue Isles. Almost everything ties back into a scheme of Recluse in some way and mucking around with that could lead to 5th Column-esque hiccups.
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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?
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Because I'd been told and I'd heard that this mythical woman of great magical power gave it to him?
Still here, even after all this time!
It is the Dev choice to make them permanant and while its kinda lame, everyone is making these purely skeptical assumptions and flipping there lids about something we know literally nothing about other then who you pick is permantant. For all we know every patron could have one single sig power and then a huge list of others that every other patron has as well.
Also the differance between patrons could be purley cosmetic. IDK just brainstorming here.
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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I'd been told and I'd heard that this mythical woman of great magical power gave it to him?
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OK, seriously. Lets compare two situations.
You live in late-Roman Britain and you see a guy in the woods, with a commanding aspect, mowing down attackers with a seemingly unstoppable sword. (For the sake of argument, since Arthur himself was a fairly epic personage, lets assume he's hard to recognize - no crown and muddied crest.)
You live in the Rogue Isles and you see a guy you've never seen before emit spectral sharks from his hands.
In the first case do you think "wow, that guy must have gotten that sword from the Lady off the Lake!" I don't think so. I think you associate the sword with the warrior, and maybe use that connection to realize that this is your king.
In the second case, I think anyone who knows anything about Sharkhead Isle is going to wonder if that has anything to do with Mako. More suggestively, eventually he's going to see someone else use that power.
Pehaps I'm mistaken, but I don't remember Arthur or his knights telling folks that the sword was issued by the Lady of the Lake. In contrast, I find it perfectly reasonable to imagine that eventually one of those Spirit Shark users will let on that it's a power obtained through Mako's patronage, forever marking anyone who hears about that as someone with that affiliation.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For all we know every patron could have one single sig power and then a huge list of others that every other patron has as well.
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Honestly dude, we do understand that. But it seems equally ludicrous to assume that the mechanic for them is radicaly different from that for hero EPPs. Especially since we were told that PPPs were CoV's equivalent to EPPs, I think that assumiong direct mechanical comparisons between them very reasonable.
To be specific, those comparisons would work out to:
***SUPPOSITION***
a) Each patron offers a Patron Pool for each of the five ATs.
b) Each Patron Pool offers four powers.
c) Each Patron Pool Power requires the same selection progression as EPPs.
***SUPPOSITION***
We have had a forum mod suggest that a) and b) were the case, but he wasn't sure.
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Also the differance between patrons could be purley cosmetic. IDK just brainstorming here.
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Honestly, I think that would be the basis for an entirely different line of complaint.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
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For all we know every patron could have one single sig power and then a huge list of others that every other patron has as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly dude, we do understand that. But it seems equally ludicrous to assume that the mechanic for them is radicaly different from that for hero EPPs. Especially since we were told that PPPs were CoV's equivalent to EPPs, I think that assumiong direct mechanical comparisons between them very reasonable.
To be specific, those comparisons would work out to:
***SUPPOSITION***
a) Each patron offers a Patron Pool for each of the five ATs.
b) Each Patron Pool offers four powers.
c) Each Patron Pool Power requires the same selection progression as EPPs.
***SUPPOSITION***
We have had a forum mod suggest that a) and b) were the case, but he wasn't sure.
[ QUOTE ]
Also the differance between patrons could be purley cosmetic. IDK just brainstorming here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think that would be the basis for an entirely different line of complaint.
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I read somewhere that each patron DID have seperate sets for each AT.
From a Boomtown interview:
http://rpg.boomtown.net/en_uk/articl...w.php?id=10730
BT: Can you give us details on the nature of the Patron power sets?
MM: Each powerset is flavored towards the Patron Villain it represents. So if you choose Black Scorpion as your Patron, you will get a Nullifer Mace, the signature weapon of a Bane Spider Commando. With this mace comes different powers (each suited towards your Archetype).
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Nonetheless, running around whipping off some power with a visual manifestation unique or characteristic of, say, Ghost Widow or Captain Mako still makes clear a distinct association with those persons/beings. ("Spirit Sharks" comes to mind.) To me it smacks of the idea that they "gave" me that power. I've disliked that aspect of the Patron Powers from the moment they were first revealed to us. For someone like me, finding out the plot tie-in additionally fixes the pool choice just abrades an already sore spot.
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Admittedly, the Patron-flavoured powers puts a slight damper on things. Not to assume you like anime, but it's easy to soften the blow, having watched a lot of it in my lifetime. A more recent example would be Naruto, in which each clan has their own special power and it's passed down to multiple members within. Therefore, you can usually tell who belongs to what clan by their abilities (not including those who try copying techniques). Same happened in other big name cartoons like Dragonball Z, where a majority of the Z Fighters learned the Kamehameha while studying under Roshi.
I'll restate that I'm not saying this is okay. Just listing a way to soften the blow to personal style/concept. While your powers may be flavoured to the Patron, it's more like a signature power passed down from Teacher to Student. I know that my half-dragon character flinging Spirit Sharks will be a bit odd... but I'll manage.
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Here's a question.
I have characters with the Clan of the Black Scorpion Badge, back when the Strike Forces were all giving out bugged badges.
Am I screwed/forced to take Black Scorpion now?
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Whiner. 
[/ QUOTE ]
No no.
WINNER!
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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Hmm. The Lady in the Lake is very important to the Excaliber and Arthurian mythos, so it's pretty valid, IMO.
Even if you knew the Lady of the Lake existed, if you saw King Arthur with Excalibur how would you know she gave him the sword?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I'd been told and I'd heard that this mythical woman of great magical power gave it to him?
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, seriously. Lets compare two situations.
You live in late-Roman Britain and you see a guy in the woods, with a commanding aspect, mowing down attackers with a seemingly unstoppable sword. (For the sake of argument, since Arthur himself was a fairly epic personage, lets assume he's hard to recognize - no crown and muddied crest.)
You live in the Rogue Isles and you see a guy you've never seen before emit spectral sharks from his hands.
In the first case do you think "wow, that guy must have gotten that sword from the Lady off the Lake!" I don't think so. I think you associate the sword with the warrior, and maybe use that connection to realize that this is your king.
In the second case, I think anyone who knows anything about Sharkhead Isle is going to wonder if that has anything to do with Mako. More suggestively, eventually he's going to see someone else use that power.
Pehaps I'm mistaken, but I don't remember Arthur or his knights telling folks that the sword was issued by the Lady of the Lake. In contrast, I find it perfectly reasonable to imagine that eventually one of those Spirit Shark users will let on that it's a power obtained through Mako's patronage, forever marking anyone who hears about that as someone with that affiliation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the lady of the lake was more famous (as a witch and all-around scary person) before Arthur, she just happened to be the generation from before that gave him his sword.
(Technically, the Arthurian legend is an incredible mutt of many previous legends that different locals added. Lancelot was added by some people in the French area, and the three witches were in the same vein. But the witches were famous in and of themselves before Arthur, they just didn't drive the Romans off with their armies.)
Still here, even after all this time!
what about the knights who say nie?
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King Arthur had Excalibur on loan from the Lady of the Lake but that didn't make her the star of the show...?
[/ QUOTE ]
How many people associate the sword with the Lady? The thematic ideal of something like this has a life of its own, separate from the facts of the matter. The thematic ideal of Excalibur (a completely unique item as far as the legend tells us) has evolved such that it is associated with Arthur.
[/ QUOTE ]
** sighs **
Fine.
Green Lanterns get their rings from the vastly more powerful Guardians on Oa.
This is common knowledge throughout the cosmos.
The rings are not unique. Every Green Lantern except one gets his ring from the exact same place.
Green Lanterns still manage to be the center of the story.
On the other side of things, Sinestro gets his yellow power ring from the powerful Weaponeers of the Anti-Matter Universe of Qward.
This is also common knowledge.
Qward is famous and widely feared.
Sinestro still somehow manages to be more than a bootpolishing lickspittle.
Okay 100 posts later and the I7:Patron Arcs thread turns into the Arthurian legends thread.. how did this happend?
(I'm not about to read 50 pages)
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Why do people think throwing analogies at a discussion is a valid argument tactic?
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Because it is?
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(I'm not about to read 50 pages)
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Then change your forum settings to show more posts per page? 
Seriously, why read the forum in the same limited, cumbersome fashion as unregistered viewers have to? 50 posts per page, 50 thread headers per index page, babee!
Many posts to page for large wins!
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
Green Lanterns get their rings from the vastly more powerful Guardians on Oa.
This is common knowledge throughout the cosmos.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is? Common Joe Smith on the streets of Coast City knows this? That was never my impression.
[ QUOTE ]
The rings are not unique. Every Green Lantern except one gets his ring from the exact same place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, we as readers know this. Spacfaring people out in various parts of the universe where the Lantern Corps literally act as police know this.
On Earth, where Green Lantern is one of several hundred super-powered beings, I do not think most citizens know this. Some heroes and some villains know it. Everyone does not.
[ QUOTE ]
On the other side of things, Sinestro gets his yellow power ring from the powerful Weaponeers of the Anti-Matter Universe of Qward.
This is also common knowledge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, I really don't think most Earth people know this. I mean really I don't think that at all.
Now I'll grant, I consider Earth the GL's "setting". Most of the DC stories are Earth-centric. Going out into the wider galaxy where more people know about Kryptonians and other whatnot is, IMO, an excursion into unusual territory.
So basically I'm drawing a distinction in the full, cononical arcana of a setting (or myth) and the perceptions of common persons within it. One set of people is the supers themselves, and then there's the wider subset of the populace. Given their level of exposure to supers, my personal opinion is that even ordinary citizens of the RI would come to recognize patron powers for their association to the patron in question.
If there were 40 Green Lanterns on Earth as a matter of course, the same sort of thing would happen there. People would see the theme, probably assume an association, and possibly find out what it was. From then on all GLs would be known as agents of Oa. That isn't going to bother most GL's. Except maybe Guy Gardener...
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
[/ QUOTE ]
Four of the five characters I got to 50th level were regen scrappers. As such, I am painfully aware that the devs are liable to change anything at a drop of a hat. So I take a patron pool because there are some powers that fill some holes I have. Then I8 hits, and either those powers are changed so they no longer fill the holes, or my primary and secondary powers change and I've now got big gaping holes that another patron power pool could close.
Appreciate giving us numbers...but so long as the powers are subject to change, the pool should be subject to change.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I guess I have 2 questions regarding the "hard wiring" of making patron powers permanent.
1.) how will this effect when hero to villian and vice versa happens?
Will the powers still be avalibale to a villian turned hero?
2.) How will epic power pools be handled for heroes who become villians? will they also get to chose patron powers? will they lose thier epic pools?
Seems kinda confusing when one set is permanet and the other isn't.
Thanks
Nemsis lv50 Inv/SS
Arch-Nemsis lv 50 SS/Inv
Heh. I'll assume that wasn't really directed at me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA