I have actually noticed a slight increase in damage a few times with Defiance, but it was minor and I was on the run. When you compare Critical Hits with Defiance, there just is no comparison. You never know when Critical Hits are going to happen, but when they do go off they can be substantial, sometimes one shoting an enemy. Defiance on the other hand, only comes into play when you're on your deathbed, a place nobody wants to be. And the fact that Defiance starts to have an effect at that point isn't really useful, unless you are on a suicide mission. If the effect kicked in at 50% instead of 10% health, it might be worth something. As it is now, I simply ignore it.
"The problem is with the very concept of the inherent, so no amount of bug fixing will ever make this inherent acceptable.
No matter how "happy" you are with it, no matter how many times you go over the code to make it less buggy, many (more likely, most) Blasters aren't going to like a power that only exists when our HP are low. We do everything we can to avoid a state of low HP."
- I Agree...
"Why can we not simply have our PvP inherent ability (30% of our damage is unresistable, always), in PvE as well, instead of Defiance? Would that be gamebreaking? Would it be impossible to code? I guarentee that it would help us a LOT more, make a lot more of us happy with our inherent, and is far more thematically compatible with our concept ("we burn through enemy defenses better than anyone" makes more sense than "my damage output is based on my damage intake")."
- I Agree again...
This is a sincere problem for me as defiance makes no sense with a playstyle in which you try to keep from taking damage. If anything it makes more sense for the tanker types ((Brutes (who already have it) and Tanks) taking dmg = dealing more dmg). So what to do about it, swallow your pride Devs, the players don't like defiance, change it to somthing else.
Thanks
Elvnsword
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
i just wish it started building earlier. when i notice i'm dooin some real damage i'm way to close to death to continue fightin
From my own experiences with the subject-I think the problem with Defiance bars being wonky may have something to do with client-server latency.
That is, the server isn't getting the signal of "OMGBBQ HEALTH LOW!" in time to sync the Defiance buff with the actual status of the character, and regen tics are buggering this even further.
I, too have seen the "Hospital Buff" effect with Defiance. Until I took damage/zoned, it stayed that way.
The whole concept of Defiance use is brutally painful post 15-20 or so, however. Mobs tend to obliterate a blaster before the server realizes you're damaged enough to trigger Defiance, and again, latency issues seem to make Defiance triggers irregular at best.
This is a poorly coded, counter-intuitive AT power that seems to fail to function properly as total HP increases. I'd rather see something that scaled up as we used Blastery powers and "warmed up" properly for a single mega-blast. Our equivalent of an anime-style "final blast" power. Bonus points if it's a unique-by-powerset power that can ONLY be triggered by using your main powerset enough over time to "charge" it properly.
Something more along the lines of a "Domination" powerup for our AT power rather than the mishmash we have today.
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Doublechecked Defiance - and its working for us (internally and on live). Can anyone give more details about this issue?
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How about it's no help at all. That by the time you get any meaningful buff you're likely going to flaceplant anyway?
Honestly, this isn't anything that hasn't been brought up before. Please spare us the lip service if no action is going to be taken.
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Amen.
To all those who suddenly think "wow statesman actually reads the forums!", don't be ignorant. If he really read the forums, he wouldn't have to ask what the problem with defiance is. It's been talked about constantly since before it ever went live.
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Doublechecked Defiance - and its working for us (internally and on live). Can anyone give more details about this issue?
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For one thing I am sure it was said a while ago that you were gonna make it start kicking in sooner, instead of the 40% that it has always been.
This issue Defiance related, but more specifically this issue is about the player base and customer satisfaction.
It has been clearly and logically stated numerous times by the paying subscriber of the service that this specific inherent power does not meet our needs.
It is Buggy, and data has been provided to show this <Hard Numbers>
It is Flawed conceptually, and numerous complaints and explainations have been lodged.
It is not what the Blaster Community Wants, and we have offered proposed solutions.
In fact it is counter to the playing experiance we have come to enjoy as this specific AT.
Thats the BOTTOM LINE.
The Developers by and large do a solid job, in this instance they have come up with a flawed concept.
At the programming level it may work flawlessly in house, no argument.
Implementation wise, conceptually and "In-Use" it is falling flat amongst a segment of your paying customers.
Thats the cold hard reality.
Your in the entertainment business, this particular issue does not deliver the response from the player base that it should.
Develop something new for this AT (And Defenders who also do not like their Inherent) that enhances the "Fun" and entertainment value of the game.
Thats your goal as a business in the entertainment field isn't it?
Increasing the Fun value of your product?
We understand it is Working as you intend it.
Please understand that We, the people paying your bills, do not like it.
Thank You.
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Develop something new for this AT (And Defenders who also do not like their Inherent) that enhances the "Fun" and entertainment value of the game.
Thats your goal as a business in the entertainment field isn't it?
Increasing the Fun value of your product?
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If I could just clarify?
In this case, Shadbolt is talking about "fun". We understand the dev team is a little tunnel-visioned but I think it safe to assume that when Shadbolt says "fun" in this case that he's not actually looking for something harder. Again, say it with me now... "Fun does not necessarily have to mean hard"
That's right, States... while one does not necessarily preclude the other, the two things are actaully mutually exclusive.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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In this case, Shadbolt is talking about "fun". We understand the dev team is a little tunnel-visioned but I think it safe to assume that when Shadbolt says "fun" in this case that he's not actually looking for something harder. Again, say it with me now... "Fun does not necessarily have to mean hard"
That's right, States... while one does not necessarily preclude the other, the two things are actaully mutually exclusive.
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Oh he went there! 
As far as stateman's reply, I'm sure he's more worried about Defiance actually "working" than anything else. He isn't looking for input on how Defiance is currently implemented (at this time).
The Devs have indicated multiple times that they are happy with defiance, despite the valid arguments brought up by many players. It's just sad.
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Instead of wasting time and energy arguing about how bad defiance is, someone please go test it and post your results (maybe some screen shots).
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It's been done.
Many times.
They don't care.
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Doublechecked Defiance - and its working for us (internally and on live). Can anyone give more details about this issue?
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My experience is that there is a lag in updating defiance. It is not noticable when taking damage gradually However when gattinng a large damage (such as the OP) or healing (which is where I noticed it) It does not seem to update immediatly. I always put it off to the normal lag of an online game. I have not tried to time it exactly but I would say that it is a few seconds. I will ususally get 2 attacks still boosted after being healed.
Since I thinks this is due to lag is it possible you (the devs) are not seeing it? and that some players are seeing it more than others?
Hope this help you find what is wonky with defiance
Proud Member Of the Paragons of Justice
Kidraid, Golden Guard, War Emblem, Eridani, Greymist, BabyTank and more many more.
My Gallery (There I am KidRaid since Greymist was already taken)
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As others have said the most I have is anecdotal. Defiance, is not very easy to measure in combat.
The big thing is how little benefit you see in when your health bar is hanging in the middle between full and empty. Usually this is when defiance is just not kicking in. Other times in a big fight with several mobs (more than 10) I may get hit by a Tank Swiper for a large amount of damage and it takes awhile for my defiance to kick in. Realize that I am hovering at death. There is no time to wait the couple of seconds that it takes for it at times.
Which is what really makes defiance a frustration to even consider useing in the higher level game. It's bonus would be much more usefull if the bonus were seen sooner and on a more gradual scale. The massive scale up when a person is below 5% health is meaningless with the current coding because of how rare it is for a blaster to survive long enough to use the bonus when they are that low on health. Hell, at that health level an auto-hit damage aura will kill off the blaster.
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How come Brute FURY works so well and seems fairly instant?
What difference is there in the coding that makes defiance markably weaker.
I'd rather have a blaster version of fury that works more reliably than weak defiance that is buggy.
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
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http://www.openmindcreations.com/j5/coh/defiance.jpg
Note: level 50 blaster
At 1/3 or so life I had .1 defiance, it wasn't until I was almost dead that the bar actually went up.
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*Working as intended*
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It's supposed to kick in at 50% health, not 33%. Which is what I see when I play my blaster. It doesn't begin to kick in until my health is at 1/3rd or less of max. If it's that low, I'm already bugging out unless I have support healing me.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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It's supposed to kick in at 50% health, not 33%. Which is what I see when I play my blaster. It doesn't begin to kick in until my health is at 1/3rd or less of max. If it's that low, I'm already bugging out unless I have support healing me.
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Yes... but 0.1/1.0 defiance is roughly equal to +40% damage on that scale. That corresponds pretty well to 33% health, although it's a little lower than the chart given here would suggest.
You get a benefit long before that, just the bar doesn't show it.
To be exact, you get an average benefit equal to Scrapper crits at roughly 50% health; that still shows up as less than 0.1/1.0 Defiance (scale recently changed, would now show up as ~4/100).
Honestly, just changing the scale the defiance meter works on would cause a huge boost in how much people liked it. Even better - turn it into a single reported number.
Even if it's supposed to work that way... it's extremely counter-intuitive. Most blasters I know tend to have an eye on an escape route as they approach 1/3rd health. I'm not hanging around for a damage & Accuracy boost when I've reached my "Get the H E double hockey sticks out of Dodge" point.
The power should be useful to me under normal play or reward intelligent gameplay. All the CoV inherent powers meet this metric. Containment, Gauntlet, Criticals, and to some extent Vigilance all meet this metric. Why should Blasters be left out in the cold?
Besides, Defiance was supposed to kick in at 50%. I've yet to see it do so before I reach 33%. It's not working as advertised/described regardless of what the Devs & QA are saying.
I used to the admin for an online game an old ISP used to run. I seldom saw the problems the players did. As it so happened, I was over at a player gathering for dinner one night and she showed me what problems she had been having. The kicker? She was performing a set of actions in the same order & manner that I would and was running into problems. That got me thinking. The problem? I was testing from INSIDE the ISP network rather than as someone connecting TO the network. On the inside, I had little to no latency of any kind (20ms ping or less). Connecting to the network like our customers showed me a different story, one fraught with lag, packet loss, and slow speeds.
Yet everything was working fine from an admin view.
It makes one wonder if they truly play their game like we do. It's one thing to log on and create a character. It's another to see how we do and try to imitate / learn it.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
I never said no one posted test results in this thread. I never said many people before didn't post test results in other threads. I know this has been a problem for a long time, and many people have already tested and tried their best to get results. Obviously it's not an issue that has garnered any concern from the devs upto this point.
What I'm hoping for is this reply from Statesman is indicating a willingness to look into the problem. Could I be wrong? Sure. I hope I'm not though. The thing is, if it is our opportunity, then why waste it.
If the Devs tell us they don't see the same problem we do, and ask us to elaborate, why is our response 'We already told you before and you didn't care then, we're not gonna tell you again.'
It seems to me like we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
Since Stateman's response, not one person (including myself) has posted any type of information that would enable to developers to see the bugs in the current form of Defiance. The closest people have come is pointing out that they told us it would start kicking in above 40% and I don't think it currently does (Heck, I'm not even sure the accuracy bonus is really there either).
I'm not saying you guys don't have valid points about how bad defiance is. I'm saying if you want it "fixed" at all, then instead of complaining about it, post some specific tests showing its bugs.
Edit: Missed your post Greymist, good constructive comments. That's what happens when you have a meeting in the middle of a reply.
Dude, I just came back from a break of a few months, but before that I've been playing this thing since beta and despite their protestations I have yet to see any evidence that any single developer has experienced this game from 1-50 the way you and I do. If they did this would be a very different game.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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Instead of wasting time and energy arguing about how bad defiance is, someone please go test it and post your results (maybe some screen shots).
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It's been done.
Many times.
They don't care.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm sure someone said that about AVs before the Elite Boss change was announced.
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Instead of wasting time and energy arguing about how bad defiance is, someone please go test it and post your results (maybe some screen shots).
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It's been done.
Many times.
They don't care.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm sure someone said that about AVs before the Elite Boss change was announced.
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So? Doesn't make what he said about this issue any less true.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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Instead of wasting time and energy arguing about how bad defiance is, someone please go test it and post your results (maybe some screen shots).
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It's been done.
Many times.
They don't care.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm sure someone said that about AVs before the Elite Boss change was announced.
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So? Doesn't make what he said about this issue any less true.
[/ QUOTE ]Ok. Prove to me that they suddenly don't care, because I don't see it. It just sounds jaded to me, and frankly that kind of stuff has gotten on my nerves ever since that whole suppression crap came in last year.
The proof is in the pudding. The fact is that this has been going on since they instituted it, they keep saying "it's working fine" and we keep saying "Yah, but it still sucks".
That's the indication that they don't care. I think the onus should be on them and their defenders to prove that they do care on this one. Fact of the matter is, if that can't be proven then it can be argued, by extension, that they don't actually care about anything we say and any changes that they make that correspond to our complaints are actually just coincidence.
Jaded, maybe, sure, yah, okay. Unfortunately, the saying is "It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you" and the same logic applies to being jaded.
Whatever, we're both off topic, we should probably keep this discussion for another time.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
I really don't think Defiance is useful....at all.
I have used it maybe ONCE...for one attack...and that was it. Typically I never get low enough in health that it's really active to any degree....
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that they don't actually care about anything we say and any changes that they make that correspond to our complaints are actually just coincidence.
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Unfortunately, the saying is "It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you" and the same logic applies to being jaded.
[/ QUOTE ]I find these to be kinda far-fetched, but I'm glad I could get a point of view from you, Hellfire.
In any case, from the data shown it looks like Defiance ain't working right in the first place (lag of the effect taking place, to be precise). To say: "Why bother? They'll just throw it out anyway." is just an exercise in pessimism and really gets us all nowhere.
I'd like to encourage the productivity here, because there are people contributing to this with helpful feedback and data. We just have to keep the thread like that, simply.
I have NEVER had defiance kick in when I had more than 10-15% of my HP. If my bar isn't red, there is no defiance.