Trolls - villain backgrounder!
By
Alzharade,
Posted on: 2005-12-21 10:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing. And really, when plumbing the depths of orders like the Templars, Golden Dawn, Lovecraftian cultists, and whatnot, my recollections are that they are pretty male-dominated.
The CoT are just bodiless wraiths, though, possessing any convenient body. Now, you could argue the original CoT, the ruling body of Oranbega, was male-dominated, but:
a) it is implied that the entire population of Oranbega was cursed, not just the Circle of Thorns proper;
b) it is hard to imagine that they would pass up the opportunity to possess a female body if that woman had money or power that would be useful to them;
c) there is at least one extant example of this: Crash Cage;
d) they are shown in game swiping women for possession.
The next rationalization would be that they polymorph any bodies they swipe to suit themselves, but really now. I think the lack of female CoT's has to be taken as a foible in the game's artwork and not indicative of the nature of the group.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing. And really, when plumbing the depths of orders like the Templars, Golden Dawn, Lovecraftian cultists, and whatnot, my recollections are that they are pretty male-dominated.
The CoT are just bodiless wraiths, though, possessing any convenient body. Now, you could argue the original CoT, the ruling body of Oranbega, was male-dominated, but:
a) it is implied that the entire population of Oranbega was cursed, not just the Circle of Thorns proper;
b) it is hard to imagine that they would pass up the opportunity to possess a female body if that woman had money or power that would be useful to them;
c) there is at least one extant example of this: Crash Cage;
d) they are shown in game swiping women for possession.
The next rationalization would be that they polymorph any bodies they swipe to suit themselves, but really now. I think the lack of female CoT's has to be taken as a foible in the game's artwork and not indicative of the nature of the group.
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or all the possessed woman are top side and look aren't dressed up like COT. Like a man's mind inside of a woman's body pretending to be a woman.
Fine. No beards and flat chested isn't plausible?
How does this grab you. The circle of thorns specialized long ago in diverse magics, but it was found that men had a talent for manipulating minds and the elements, while women had a talent for possessing spirits and summoning demons. Today, when a hero ventures into Orenbega nad confronts a Behemoth, he is confronting a female CoT member.
This explains the lack of external genitalia on the Behemoths.
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Fine. No beards and flat chested isn't plausible?
How does this grab you. The circle of thorns specialized long ago in diverse magics, but it was found that men had a talent for manipulating minds and the elements, while women had a talent for possessing spirits and summoning demons. Today, when a hero ventures into Orenbega nad confronts a Behemoth, he is confronting a female CoT member.
This explains the lack of external genitalia on the Behemoths.
[/ QUOTE ]Dude, I'd hit it.
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Fine. No beards and flat chested isn't plausible?
How does this grab you. The circle of thorns specialized long ago in diverse magics, but it was found that men had a talent for manipulating minds and the elements, while women had a talent for possessing spirits and summoning demons. Today, when a hero ventures into Orenbega nad confronts a Behemoth, he is confronting a female CoT member.
This explains the lack of external genitalia on the Behemoths.
[/ QUOTE ]Dude, I'd hit it.
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Do I work with you?
-Tsoo
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I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing.
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I just figured they had something worked out with the Coven, who appears to be all female. Then once or twice a year they can get together for a really big and strangely awkward mixer with all the guys standing on one side and all the girls standing on the other... 
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Hang about, how can you tell they're even male under those draping robes? All we can see are glowing eyes!
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This is true, but the thing is they all seem male nonetheless. DX
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
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379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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CoT. Succubi are female, but some of the mages ought to be too.
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... when you're using magic for a long time, you grow a beard and lose your bust. Arctic Sun is going to include that tidbit when he redoes the CoT background.
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Now, now ... be nice. 
I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing.[...]
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Well, since we see them stealing the bodies of women as well as men, I would imagine that a successful 'possession' transforms the victim's body into a duplicate of the body originally worn by the possessing spirit. Why they were originally all males? Sexism, power-madness, and perhaps a particular oddity of the pseudo-god(s) that they serve? Certainly there is no shortage of female magi in other groups. If there were female magi in their ancient civilization, perhaps they might show up as a different enemy group, or even ally group, in some future release.
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I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing.
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I just figured they had something worked out with the Coven, who appears to be all female. Then once or twice a year they can get together for a really big and strangely awkward mixer with all the guys standing on one side and all the girls standing on the other...
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SNORK!
As I recall from the remarks in Croatoa during its Beta test, the Coven were women who were trying to take revenge for the killing of their husbands and children. I haven't yet gotten back to see if that's still the case, but it makes more sense than them tolerating jerks like the Circle of Thorns.
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Now, now ... be nice.
I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing. And really, when plumbing the depths of orders like the Templars, Golden Dawn, Lovecraftian cultists, and whatnot, my recollections are that they are pretty male-dominated.
Not that we shouldn't have female mages ... but with the fiction I try to support the game, which in turn supports the CoH universe, which in turn leads to the fiction...
Something like that.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Here's the thing I don't get, they kidnap and hold female citizens hostage and threaten them in a very specific way that implies there should be female CoT members.
Let's Dance!
A lot of the victims the CoT takes I assume are used in their demon summoning rites. Some of those people become CoT mages, but a lot I think are just used for human sacrifice. One soul for one Spectral Demon Lord or Behemoth Master, for example.
So, my theory is the women are just used for human sacrifice, and some of the men they take become mages, because the CoT is sexist like that.
Or maybe all the female mages are elsewhere. The Rogue Isles branch of the Circle has some enemies that don't appear in Paragon City. Maybe for reasons unknown the female CoT hang out elsewhere.
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A lot of the victims the CoT takes I assume are used in their demon summoning rites. Some of those people become CoT mages, but a lot I think are just used for human sacrifice. One soul for one Spectral Demon Lord or Behemoth Master, for example.
So, my theory is the women are just used for human sacrifice, and some of the men they take become mages, because the CoT is sexist like that.
Or maybe all the female mages are elsewhere. The Rogue Isles branch of the Circle has some enemies that don't appear in Paragon City. Maybe for reasons unknown the female CoT hang out elsewhere.
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Well, except there are nice examples (some rather explicit ones mentioned earlier) of the Circle Thorning women.
Let's Dance!
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Certainly there is no shortage of female magi in other groups.
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Tsoo? Banished Pantheon? Hellions? The Cabal is the only magic-oriented group I can think of with female members, unless you count the Carnival (and I thought they mostly just had psychically-granted power....)
OK based on stuff that other people have written...
Let's say that somewhere along the way the female magicians of Uranbega had the sence to revolt against the demon summoning stuff that seems to be CoT mainstream hobby these days
Maybe some witch put a dying curse on Uranbega that prohibits females from being possesed?
Who knows, but yes we're waiting for some explanation (and while I'm at it I love the background pieces for the villain groups, just trying to throw some ideas into the kettle...)
Blessed be
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Despite that little mistake, it still was pretty interesting. I'm particularly interested in the Troll Arch-Villain that's hinted at in Atta's file. Could that be Grendel, who we've heard the Trolls talking about but have never seen?
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Actually, I bet Grendel faked his own death and went underground. He probably had some master plan to make Atta look like the leader of the trolls to draw attention away from himself - also, he may have had something to do with Julius the Troll sending you on a mission to stop Atta after he tired of the charade. Either way, Grendel is probably a ton smarter than Atta and the other trolls. Atta was just really strong - Grendel is probably fairly intelligent too, and knows all the secrets of superadine.
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Personally, I've always seen Grendal as smart- why? Well, partly because it makes sense- intellegence *and* strength are good qualities for leadership- and second, because its *funny*. Flagg depicted him that way in his hillarious Archvillians series. Imagine facing off against this big-bad leader of the Trolls, and you find him sipping tea and speaking in a british accent- and when you let your guard down, he kills you with the teacup.
as for what happened between Atta and Grendel?
Well, the way I see it, the Dyne-hyped Atta charged into Troll central like a bat out of hell, stronger than any Troll before, beating up or straight-out killing any Troll in his way- this was so sudden and overwhelming, even the normally unbeatable Grendel was beaten.
Grendel did *not* take this lying down. Badly injured, he fled to his secret hideaway, one he'd created to hide himself if somethign like this ever happened- a hideaway containing one of the largest stockpiles of Superadyne in the world- siphoned off shipments and horded for years.
In a rage at his defeat, even his better judgement was overwhelmed.
He took it *all*.
grendel nearly died as the sheer volume of the chemical surged through his system, and he was as death's door for months- only the regenerative properties the drug granted him keptit from killing him... as it changed him.
He became something else- a Troll unlike any troll ever seen, one more monsters than imagining, stronger than most beings on this planet- and a mind as razor sharp as ever- if, perhaps, even more monsterous.
Then one stormy night, he caught Atta out and about, and laid down the score:
Grendel was leader. Grendel would always would be leader- but Atta would be the front man, his daring and strength earned him that. As long as Atta did what Grendel said, Atta would get to live, and act like he led the Trolls.
And, of course, as Grendel failed to mention, be the first and most obvious target.
And that, in my perspective, is the current state and situation of Grendel- the monsterous shadow leader of the Trolls.
Tygara - 50 Claws/Regen/Power Scrapper, Virtue- Member of Kitties on the Prowl.
Shadeburn - Dark/Rad Defender, Virtue- Member of Catch 'Em Crew
Nature Boy' - Elec/Ice Blaster, Virtue - Member of Young Phalanx
I have doubts that the Coven is all female, have you seen some of the lieutenants up close? They're beefed up on steroid and have masculine faces!
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And two: ¿Why no mention about their feud with the Outcasts? Both gangs seem to hate each other for something more than simple territorial issues. Yet the origin of this hate has never been explained (at least to my knowledge)
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It's explained in a round about way in the game fiction. The Trolls work for the Family as part of the Superadine distribution ring. The Outcasts work for the Warriors as part of the magic artifacts black market. The Warriors and the Family encourage their subordinate gangs to fight each other in an effort to encroach on each others territory without risking their own men.
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And the Tsoo hate them all!
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But don't Tsoo negotiate with Outcasts?
And Skulls make Superadine trades with Trolls, gotta remember that.
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Hey, you know what I'd like to see? An organizational chart of who reports to who, the alliances and rivalries, etc, in order to get the bigger picture. We find this information out as we complete missions, but an overview would be nice reference.
Heck, if someone can post the connections, I'll put something graphic together and host it.
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Hmmm... I think I could do that.
However, one thing to keep in mind, though, some villian groups have "Ranges"- Meaning that they have no interaction with each oter, because they never really encounter each other- they run in different circles.
For example, the Nemesis Army won't really distinguish between a Hellion and a civillian- both are bugs to them.
So allot of the interactions would be "None"
Also, since I've not played all the way through CoV, I don't have much of an angle on the groups on *that* side's feelings towards one another, and its been a whiel since I played throguh CoH, so some of my memories might be innaccurate.
Tygara - 50 Claws/Regen/Power Scrapper, Virtue- Member of Kitties on the Prowl.
Shadeburn - Dark/Rad Defender, Virtue- Member of Catch 'Em Crew
Nature Boy' - Elec/Ice Blaster, Virtue - Member of Young Phalanx
Methinks that the female bodies and souls are given to the carnies while the men are used as hosts... It keeps the COT on good terms with another VERY POWERFUL cabal of evil, and it allows Vanessa Devore to work towards her goals with minimal effort to attain subjects. (after all you don't see the Carnies trying to posses people in the streets now do you?)
By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!
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they have horns, bulge with oversized muscles, and are relatively sexless.
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Awww! What about my favorite tanker, Trollkin Teen? She's a 15 year old troll, born from two trolls and forced to take Dyne as she grew up, until the point her dad became an Ogre class troll and was far more abusive towards her and her little brother. That's when she ran away and was able to become a Hero, which she daydreamed about being for years (because of their colorful costumes and shining armor).
Sure, she still takes a tiny amount of Dyne just to keep the withdraw symptoms away, but I don't want her to become a male-muscle-body when she gets stronger! ;_;
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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Sure, she still takes a tiny amount of Dyne just to keep the withdraw symptoms away, but I don't want her to become a male-muscle-body when she gets stronger! ;_;
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That's a neat concept, first off. I like how people intigrate the game so smoothly into characters sometimes.
However, I think you're missing the easy answer here. A Hero goes through a lot of rough times, and presumably the sexlessness only happens when you are exposed to large levels of Dyne. Assuming your origin is Science, the gasses, explosions, experiments, and what not that continue to improve your powers could easily meld with the Dyne in weird and wonderful ways, allowing your Hero to keep her gender traits. A stray blast of chemicals at Cray, a worried Professor St. James-Smythe applying his medical knowhow to the drug's effects, anything like that could preserve your character while still keeping her true to her origin.
Heck, if all else fails, do what Dr. Chernobyl'd do. Blame Positron. Who knows what radiation does to Trolls!
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Although as addicts they have an illness, it is hard to feel sympathetic to a rampaging, green-skinned, muscle-bound junkie.
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Addiction is not an illness, it's a choice.
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Really? Explain that to an infant born with a cocaine addiction because their mother was a crack addict.
Really? Explain that to an infant born with a cocaine addiction because their mother was a crack addict.
He wouldn't have to, because they don't exist -- they're an urban myth fostered by junk science.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Edit***
Ok, if you say so, Pal. This really isn't the place.
..Actually the COT not haveing females directly contradicts the in-game lore.
Those little green - stuff rings that have a trapped person in them who, if you watch long enough, actually BECOMES a cot? They are usually, if not always, female. Therefore the COT that are made from them should be female, but are not...
OMG!!!!! COX SUPPPORTS TRANSGENDERIFICATON!!!!Im telling PETA on you.
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CoT. Succubi are female, but some of the mages ought to be too.
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... when you're using magic for a long time, you grow a beard and lose your bust. Arctic Sun is going to include that tidbit when he redoes the CoT background.
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Now, now ... be nice.
I don't yet have a theory on why the Circle is male-only, unless it's a fraternity type of thing. And really, when plumbing the depths of orders like the Templars, Golden Dawn, Lovecraftian cultists, and whatnot, my recollections are that they are pretty male-dominated.
Not that we shouldn't have female mages ... but with the fiction I try to support the game, which in turn supports the CoH universe, which in turn leads to the fiction...
Something like that.
cheers,
Arctic Sun
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Well, the Circle of Thorns *DO* originate from a time when women were considered less capable then men. So it does make sense that the CoT would simply prefer male oriented hosts for their own souls, while using females for... Other uses.
Plus, the "elder" CoT probably still have that inherint sexism from the old days, and so only induct men into their society.