How come we have no red servers yet???
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-11-01 20:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I would so hate to see Statesman and the other developers so wearied by what happens here that they lose their creativity and start worrying about catering to the lowest common denominator and thinking in terms of PR and press release mentality.
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So it's not okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to PR but it is okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to gameplay changes and balance decisions? Seems a bit backwards to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.
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If I may, what is your presumably "higher standard" in gameplay changes and balance decisions? I'm interested to know...
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I would so hate to see Statesman and the other developers so wearied by what happens here that they lose their creativity and start worrying about catering to the lowest common denominator and thinking in terms of PR and press release mentality.
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So it's not okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to PR but it is okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to gameplay changes and balance decisions? Seems a bit backwards to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.
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By catering to the lowest common denominator I did not mean specific design decisions made in this game. I meant being so concerned about minimizing the reactions to changes that they stop being bold and creative in their development of the game.
I mean that at design meetings, it would be awful if they think "yeah but think how people would scream" every time they had a creative idea or a new way of taking the game, rather than letting the creativity flow like it obviously used to, in order for them to have come up with the ideas they've come up with.
It would be sad if they let the people who hate change determine the design decisions that are made.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
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If I may, what is your presumably "higher standard" in gameplay changes and balance decisions? I'm interested to know...
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The move provided by all of these "balance changes" has had one prevailing effect. To remove consequences from the choices players make. To make the difference between what one player slots and another slots ineffectual. To make the choice of chosing one power over another irrelevant.
Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.
Did the top end of builds need to be tuned down? Sure did, there was (and still are) some things capable in this game that are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. But hammering everyone down to the point that my choices as a player have such an insignificant effect as to be pointless makes for an even more boring game.
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If I may, what is your presumably "higher standard" in gameplay changes and balance decisions? I'm interested to know...
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The move provided by all of these "balance changes" has had one prevailing effect. To remove consequences from the choices players make. To make the difference between what one player slots and another slots ineffectual. To make the choice of chosing one power over another irrelevant.
Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.
Did the top end of builds need to be tuned down? Sure did, there was (and still are) some things capable in this game that are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. But hammering everyone down to the point that my choices as a player have such an insignificant effect as to be pointless makes for an even more boring game.
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Water under the bridge, lad. Get over it. Move on. If you can't find a way to enjoy the changes, perhaps it is time for you to take a break from this game and try another.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
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You're a funny guy.
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thanks
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Everything a Nerf in the last 10 months?
Hyeprbole
Some big things added
Striga (maybe not sure on timing)
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Was here when I got here... looks like last November.
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That is why I was specifically saying I wasn't sure on the timing. I dont recall the exact times and dates of the issues.
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ADDED new mission types (ie escorts missions, and wave attacks)
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Yes, you got one.
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thanks
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Sleected power boosts:
Added healing to INT
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A boost followed by 6 nerfs is not a boost:
1. Lowered from 400% to 200%
2. Made only half enhanceable
3. (indirect) HO heal reduced from 50% to 33%
4. Lowered from 200% to 150%
5. Made only 1/3 enhanceable
6. (indirect) can only use 3 SOs to enhance.
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From where I started (at zero +regen in INT) it is still a boost, and I for one am glad of said boost
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threw in -regen as concepts to help AV fights
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You do realize that one worked both ways? regen scrappers were especially hurt by mobs that now do -regen also.
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Yep. I know a little about playing a regen scrapepr at the high levels. -regen is a bigger boost for us in PvE, than against us. (us being teams of course).
-regen is quite quite deadly in PvP, on more than just regen scrappers.
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Altered pool and FF defenses so they will always stack with everyones defenses in some manner.
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I consider this one a bug fix, not a boost. It was absurd that they did not stack before... all those useless bubbles being casted.
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call it what you will it was a power change, that was not a nerf.
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Personally, I know of more people who left because the game was too easy, than over the nerfs.
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Tankers were too easy. Other than that though, I don't think the game needed more than a few tweaks rather than the gutting that has happened.
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When abouve the mid 20's, most teams I would join with any charctcer, were running on invincible as the effective default setting.
Hardest setting as the default is showing that things are broken.
The broad brush of ED has caught a few powers and concepts that do need looking at (Empath Auras for one example).
On the whole the game will be IMHO better in 6 months because of ED than it is now.
Currently, it is a better (more balanced and more fun) game now than before I5 and I6.
All IMHO of course.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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ED and I5 haven't created a ghost town out of City of Heroes.
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Yet. City of Villains caused (is still causing) a lot of people to stick around despite the changes - first for the beta after I5, and now for the live game after ED. Once the newness of CoV wears off, that's when you'll really see what effect ED and I5 had.
Skip
My Char. List and Market Transactions
HeroStats Developer
Legion of Valor
Iron Eagles
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And it's a phenomenal game!
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Boo! Hiss!
<-- Not a WoW fan, (heck not a Lineage 2 fan either).
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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ED and I5 haven't created a ghost town out of City of Heroes.
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Yet. City of Villains caused (is still causing) a lot of people to stick around despite the changes - first for the beta after I5, and now for the live game after ED. Once the newness of CoV wears off, that's when you'll really see what effect ED and I5 had.
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I love this. So CoH doesn't die off just to prove that you were right about I5 and ED, the way it should have, so you could show us all that you were right. Maybe you were wrong then.
Oh no! I wasn't wrong! CoV masked the effect and it will still happen.
So we have to wait months to see that you were right. By then though the game will have changed some more, and you'll forget about I5 and ED and move onto the next changes, complaining about those and how they will wreck the game.
And the whole time you'll be pissed off.
I mean "you" collectively, btw, not any particular you.
Nice way to live, dude.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
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Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.
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You've never been in any kind of entertainment mass marketing, have you? Harrys the Chimp have a far greater amount of income they're willing to spend on entertainment than all the Evil Geckos.
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*sigh*
Let's see if I can lay this thing to rest.
At I5 - and now again with ED - some claim that the game is "dying" and that thousands of players are leaving. This isn't true. We're actually gaining customers. Not hundreds of thousands, but we're gaining nevertheless.
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It's arrogant and snarky comments like this that makes me wonder why I play this game.
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Not really snarky, especially if you take it IN CONTEXT. Nice try though.
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My gray friends list and gray SG list say otherwise. And yes you may be gaining customers, but they are CoV customers, not CoH customers. Last night when I looked it was about 80% on CoV and 20% CoH on Infinity. CoH is dying. You've got more customers because of CoV, because CoV is new content. My friends list on CoH is gray because you could not retain those customers, because you nerfed them to the point that they left, rather than spending those resources to add new content to CoH.
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I get constant blind invites in both CoH and CoV. My friends list varies from all grey to 1/2 lit. Ummm...how can you tell what % is playing which game? CoH is definitely not dying.
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Just do a search on CoH, pick all CoH archetypes, check the total at the bottom. Watch how low the number goes when you are only looking at CoH players.
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But as far as CoH is concerned... what is new? Everything added to CoH since I've started playing 10 months ago has been a nerf save Croatoa. And by the time Croatoa hit, I was way past that and couldn't do any of it's content except for the TF.
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Woah. It sounds like you need to take a break from CoH (and maybe CoV), man, if that's all you can see as being added in the past 10 months. Nuff said.
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Telling people to quit is against the forum rules. I am allowed to state may opinion here just as much as you are.
OK yes, they've added a couple new mission types as mentioned by catwhoorg. They've added a couple new zone events. And? (don't bother saying Arena, Warburg, Siren's Call, and Bloody Bay... not interested in PvP, tried it, died everytime, not fun).
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I have a level 50 regen scrapper that needs YET ANOTHER respec, and I'm finding that I just don't care. Too many large changes in too short a time has left me tired of trying to figure it out. Part of the fun of CoH was building the character, learning about it's powers as you go, and using respecs to "tweak" things as you learn. But now we are using respecs to try to salvage things. And yeah, they are free respecs, but you don't have all the playtime experience to guide you since nothing works like it did before.
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If there's no end game content then why do you need to respec your toon until there is? Hmmm...since I started playing most things seem to work the same or better.
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Well... I never did finish the Hero's Hero arc. Just couldn't get a team together to do it. I'm glad your toons are better, but I can say for a fact that mine is about 25% of what he was in issue 3.
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Change is an integral part of MMORPGs be they buffs, nerfs, additions, whatever.
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Tweaking things here and there, be they buffs or nerfs is one thing, especially if it is to correct an exploit or adjust the balance.... but they have been going way beyond that to the point where there is no continuity with your toons from one issue to the next. That's fine if all you are doing is catering to new players... not fine for trying to retain your installed base.
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not fine for trying to retain your installed base.
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I think some people have taken this to an unfortunate extreme.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
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Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.
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So what could have been, or could still be, done differently to find this balance you speak of?
Personally, I think that there is a good amount of challenge and spark in the game now and that "random" builders of characters will find it very hard, but not impossible, to play on heroic, while more experienced players can turn up the difficulty meter and find more of a challenge. Some things still need to be tweaked, yes, especially things like ED's impact on Hover and other power pool powers that only accept one type of enhancement, but I don't see them as so game breaking as to remove all strategy or thinking when it comes to character building and effectiveness.
It's the difference between communism, where everyone is the same by design, and a balanced economy where a man who sells his own artwork on the street and a man who designs computer programs that sell millions can both live happily and have what they need to survive.
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The move provided by all of these "balance changes" has had one prevailing effect. To remove consequences from the choices players make. To make the difference between what one player slots and another slots ineffectual. To make the choice of chosing one power over another irrelevant.
Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.
Did the top end of builds need to be tuned down? Sure did, there was (and still are) some things capable in this game that are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. But hammering everyone down to the point that my choices as a player have such an insignificant effect as to be pointless makes for an even more boring game.
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You failed to enumerate your standards for balance and gameplay decisionmaking. I didn't ask for your rationale.
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OK yes, they've added a couple new mission types as mentioned by catwhoorg. They've added a couple new zone events. And? (don't bother saying Arena, Warburg, Siren's Call, and Bloody Bay... not interested in PvP, tried it, died everytime, not fun).
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Just because it is of no interest to you, doesn't make it not new content.
This game has (as of September) 150 000 active players, that is 150 000 different opinions on fun, and what is interesting.
Catering some areas of the game to a proportion of this playerbase is good business practice.
TF's are considered 'non-casual' freindly by some. Doesn that mean the devs should not invest time and effort in making new TF's ?
No it doesn't
What they are doing is making TF's more accessible (shorter in time) for the casual gamer.
The PvP interested people had ZERO zones before I6, now they have 3 of different feels and levels.
PvP content in this game seems to be the most 'accesible' of any current MMORPG to the non-hardcore PvP person.
Does it require different tactics and a chnage in thinking, yes it does.
Besdies, there are still over 40 PvE exclusive zones in CoH/CoV (If I counted right)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Sleected power boosts:
Added healing to INT
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A boost followed by 6 nerfs is not a boost:
1. Lowered from 400% to 200%
2. Made only half enhanceable
3. (indirect) HO heal reduced from 50% to 33%
4. Lowered from 200% to 150%
5. Made only 1/3 enhanceable
6. (indirect) can only use 3 SOs to enhance.
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From where I started (at zero +regen in INT) it is still a boost, and I for one am glad of said boost
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But iirc the 400% you got from integration initially you lost from instant healing, so there was no boost at all for 28+ heroes.
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Tankers were too easy. Other than that though, I don't think the game needed more than a few tweaks rather than the gutting that has happened.
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When abouve the mid 20's, most teams I would join with any charctcer, were running on invincible as the effective default setting.
Hardest setting as the default is showing that things are broken.
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That was a direct result of tankers being way out of whack compared to the rest of the ATs. But now they have things so screwed up it will never be balanced. Melee ATs are rapidly becoming useless in CoH. The defenses of all of them were gutted and that makes their lives much more binary because mobs hit much harder in melee.
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Currently, it is a better (more balanced and more fun) game now than before I5 and I6.
All IMHO of course.
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I don't think it's balanced any better than it was before I4. It's just unbalanced in different ways.
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Yet. City of Villains caused (is still causing) a lot of people to stick around despite the changes - first for the beta after I5, and now for the live game after ED. Once the newness of CoV wears off, that's when you'll really see what effect ED and I5 had.
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I highly doubt that. Even if as many people as you claim were upset about these changes, by the time this so-called newness of CoV wears off most players will have adapted and will have grown to, in the very least, accept the changes. It's not different than anything that has come before.
While I'm not particularly crazy about ED I have to admit it has made me consider slotting in ways I hadn't tried before. So I suppose it's done it's job, whether I like it or not.
CoH/CoV has a key advantage in being a niche genre in the MMORPG market. While it makes it difficult for this game achieve the numbers of games like WoW because of the popularity of the fantasy genre, it also ensures that CoH/CoV will maintain a loyal fanbase.
If CoH/CoV had been perceived to be the failure some claim it to be we wouldn't have Marvel and DC actively looking to develop their own MMOs. I'm sure they studied this game quite closely and are convinced there's a market for the genre. Of course it also helps that the market is over-saturated with fantasy RPGs.
WoW has the advantage that Blizzard has a lot of experience. They know how to take an existing genre and refine and streamline it into something enjoyable. They also have a very distinct style of art which has also drawn countless fans. I'm sure the game has countless flaws, but many fans are willing to overlook those because of their love for the Blizzard brand. It's not all that different from people who are still committed to SWG.
As for Lineage and Lineage 2, having been produced in Asia there's that association with anime, even if these games aren't Japanese. Many anime fans adore anything coming from Asia, regardless of what it is. I think this is why FFIX has maintained it's popularity.
That said, I don't particularly trust subscription numbers in Asia. I tend to think they use a bit of creative accounting out there. Also, it's hard to know how many of these numbers are from real subscribers and not internet cafes. If it's anything like what I've seen in Taiwan, the vast majority of these gamers are playing in at those gaming centers.
Asia certainly has the potential for huge subscription numbers, mainly thanks to China. However, I think that's still a long way off. Contrary to the overly positive news we see in the US regarding China they're a long way from having the lifestyle of Japanese, Taiwanese or Koreans.
There's also the fact that a lot of young people out there are willing to spend their time and money even more frivolously than their American counterparts, for a variety of reasons. Although, I guess that is a good thing for business. The ultimate consumers live in Asia; it's one of the big reasons the Japanese economy has remained afloat despite a weak economy these past 10 or 15 years. However, that's a completely different discussion.
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*sigh*
Let's see if I can lay this thing to rest.
At I5 - and now again with ED - some claim that the game is "dying" and that thousands of players are leaving. This isn't true. We're actually gaining customers. Not hundreds of thousands, but we're gaining nevertheless.
>>at least to a degree. As SirBruce will tell you, it's really difficult to get numbers out of publishers. NCSoft posts ours.
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Is there any chance we can see the numbers of cancellations of people that subscribed for 3 months or more, post the ED announcement? It would also be nice to see the number of new subscriptions. I don't really think that showing a "net gain" means that ED wasn't a public relations nightmare. Most of your new subscribers came for COV and the hype surrounding it, they really don't know or care what ED is.
I remember a study I read once that said retaining customers costs 10% of gaining new ones. I think that ED came as a suprise following all the other changes, and many of your customers felt it was a slap in the face pretty much.
Anyway, on a personal note, I don't find ED all that bad. I miss my non S/L resists on my Inv tanks and the ability to have powers for "flavor", but if you think I should have to have tough and all my Inv powers - so be it.
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*sigh*
Let's see if I can lay this thing to rest.
At I5 - and now again with ED - some claim that the game is "dying" and that thousands of players are leaving. This isn't true. We're actually gaining customers. Not hundreds of thousands, but we're gaining nevertheless.
Then all of a sudden I read Armsman's post where he talks about our original launch subscription numbers - which isn't really the point. My entire response on this thread has been focused to I5 and ED reaction - so the more pertinent number to look at would be what our numbers were just previous to I5...not our numbers just after launch. Never did I make a claim that we have more subscribers now than we did last year. My point continues to be: ED and I5 haven't created a ghost town out of City of Heroes.
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*sigh*
Now remove that little variable in the equation called "City of Villains". Where would your subscription numbers be if ED had gone live without the launch of a hugely hyped expansion? Your mastery at the prestidigitation of facts is astounding. Had ED gone live sans CoV, then we would be looking at an entirely different scenario.
while(!sleep()){sheep++}
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but if you think I should have to have tough and all my Inv powers
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Whatever makes you effective. Personally I'm just fine without Tough on any of my characters, including my INV/SS Tank.
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What's great is that people have been saying we're ddddoooommmeeedd since launch, and yet surprisingly, here we are.
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When I buy a non MMO game, I play it for a week or two. Most MMO games I buy I play once or twice and discard. A few I've played for several months. But CoH I've been playing since it launched and don't plan to stop.
Cryptic has done a phenomenal job. They started with a great game and they've worked hard to keep it alive and even expand it in dramatic and different ways. CoV will breathe another year of robust life into the game.
After that, will they come up with yet more amazing work to keep us hooked? Dunno. Someday they're engine will be outdated and they'll all move on to other projects.
But I5, ED, or any of the other changes didn't break this game. They kept it alive. For every player that was disgusted that their character was now "broken" because it couldn't do what it once could, there was a player like me who was happy that there was a challenge again.
It can be a painful process, but I applaud Statesman and Cryptic for having the guts to change a good thing to try to keep it going and make it better.
CoV is awesome!
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Also - another comment on discounted games - currently, City of Heroes is $29.99. Certain stores can run sales - like Lineage 2 is free with a Guild Wars purchase at a local chain.
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What's this Bootleg Edition thing that BestBuy has for free?
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Where would your subscription numbers be if ED had gone live without the launch of a hugely hyped expansion?
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Since it didn't go down that way, who would know?
You mastery of the inclusion of theorems into an argument in a completely pointless manner is impressive. And while it's an intriguing question, the fact that it's not an answerable one makes it rather useless to ask in context with this argument.
Short version: Could have, should have, would have. We'd all be rich.
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What's great is that people have been saying we're ddddoooommmeeedd since launch, and yet surprisingly, here we are.
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True story; over a year ago, one of my co-workers who was in Beta told me that nobody would be playing this game in a year.
Today, CoH is still here. I'm still playing. He, however, is no longer employed here.
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Where would your subscription numbers be if ED had gone live without the launch of a hugely hyped expansion?
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Since it didn't go down that way, who would know?
You mastery of the inclusion of theorems into an argument in a completely pointless manner is impressive. And while it's an intriguing question, the fact that it's not an answerable one makes it rather useless to ask in context with this argument.
Short version: Could have, should have, would have. We'd all be rich.
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It's just sour grapes really. This wave of harbingers of DOOOOOOOMMMM are getting their "I'm always right" illusion popped, and for some it takes a while to come back into the real world.
Never fear though: there'll be another troupe of them next time to beeatch and moan.
Hell is other people.
[b]Virtue[/b]
Lady Mantis, Dark/empathy defender
Woman in Purdah, DM/regen scrapper
Gravity Monkey, Grav/kin controller
Stone Woman, Stone/stone tanker
Freyja Incarnate, Fire/invuln. tanker
Head Shrinker, Ill/FF controller
Blowup Doll, AR/dev blaster
Geek of Darkness, Dark/dark defender
You're a funny guy.
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Everything a Nerf in the last 10 months?
Hyeprbole
Some big things added
Striga (maybe not sure on timing)
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Was here when I got here... looks like last November.
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ADDED new mission types (ie escorts missions, and wave attacks)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you got one.
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Sleected power boosts:
Added healing to INT
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A boost followed by 6 nerfs is not a boost:
1. Lowered from 400% to 200%
2. Made only half enhanceable
3. (indirect) HO heal reduced from 50% to 33%
4. Lowered from 200% to 150%
5. Made only 1/3 enhanceable
6. (indirect) can only use 3 SOs to enhance.
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threw in -regen as concepts to help AV fights
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You do realize that one worked both ways? regen scrappers were especially hurt by mobs that now do -regen also.
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Altered pool and FF defenses so they will always stack with everyones defenses in some manner.
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I consider this one a bug fix, not a boost. It was absurd that they did not stack before... all those useless bubbles being casted.
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Personally, I know of more people who left because the game was too easy, than over the nerfs.
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Tankers were too easy. Other than that though, I don't think the game needed more than a few tweaks rather than the gutting that has happened.