Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
This seems to be a common complaint...I wonder if the devs are even looking into it...
Secure bases cost a WHOLE lot more than hidden ones. I can't justify the unrealistic expense in my VG. I don't know what is involved in a trial to acquire an IoP, but I expect it will be less than the time you have to spend to earn rent money on a secure base. As such, your time may be better spent just doing another IoP trial if you lose one, and sticking with a hidden base.
You might also consider creating or joining a mutual defense alliance. You promise not to raid your allies (by coordinating raid schedules), and to assist your allies if they are raided. If you get enough of the high-end SGs and VGs in the alliance, you can spank anyone on your server who gets out of line. Just put together a max sized group of HO loaded level 50 toons with min-maxed builds, and completely trash the base of anyone who raids you. Repeatedly if needed.
Sometimes, the social solutions are the easiest.
P.S. My VG is on Justice, and I expect we'll have a raidable base within a couple weeks. PM me if you wanna talk.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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If you do the math, 20 Million Prestige's rent is 1 Million Prestige every 2 weeks...."
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It's actually 400,000, but who's counting? 
I've got more bad news for you, the Turbine Generator you want to build is huge. It won't fit in a 2x2 energy terminal.
Yup - I believe Turbine Generator is a medium power item, which requires a 3x3 power room (600k? Something like that) which won't fit on the starter plot so you have to upgrade to the 12x12 which is another 3m...
@Mindshadow
Yeah I guess I don't mind high costs but I think the actual costs for building a base are higher than acceptable limits of fun for most people who just want to play a game and not make a game become work.
The best way I can illustrate this is like this...
Total Bonus for 1st 15 members: 300,000
Cost of 2x2 Energy Room: 150,000
Cost of Basic Generator: 225,000
Cost of 2x2 Control Room: 100,000
Cost of Basic Control (e.g., Mainframe): 150,000
Total Cost: 625000
In other words, with the bonus, all you can do is place the rooms, you can't actually get Basic Energy or Basic Control.
This means the bonus isn't even enough to be able to afford the basic core needs of a base (Energy + Control).
Now if those costs were 50% they'd look like:
Cost of 2x2 Energy Room: 75,000
Cost of Basic Generator: 112,500
Cost of 2x2 Control Room: 50,000
Cost of Basic Control (e.g., Mainframe): 75,000
Total Cost: 312500
That would put things so that the bonus was enough for the basic core base needs. From there everything else would be earned.
To me this just indicates that base items, rooms, plots, etc. all cost about twice what they should.
The real problem is that they've based the costs of everything as if we were earning Prestige at the same rate we're earning Influence. Which we're obviously not.
My biggest concern at this point is that folks want to do the crafting thing but prestige costs for items to craft cause nothing but headaches. If you've got 50 people in an SG and your only earning 100k per day if your lucky and even if only 10 members want to build things for the SG... your looking at MILLIONS of prestige needed to allow them to place what they've built.
The whole system is out of whack.
w00t Radio
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If you do the math, 20 Million Prestige's rent is 1 Million Prestige every 2 weeks...."
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It's actually 400,000, but who's counting?
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Where did you learn to do math? 5% of 20,000,000 is 1,000,000. Its really easy you open the windows Calculator and type in 20,000,000 and press the * button then type in .05, hit enter and boom you get your answer.
w00t Radio
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Where did you learn to do math? 5% of 20,000,000 is 1,000,000. Its really easy you open the windows Calculator and type in 20,000,000 and press the * button then type in .05, hit enter and boom you get your answer.
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From beta the actual scale of rent (I think poz posted this, I've only got it from a quote on my SG website):
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The corrected rate ramps from 0% at 0 prestige to 1% at 1,000,000 prestige. It then ramps to 2% at around 14,00,000 prestige and 3% at around 69,000,000 prestige. The maximum the rate is 3.8% at around 170,000,000 prestige. (These ramps are smooth and not linear.)
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So at 20mil you're around 2.2%ish figure (probably even less, but its hard to say since I figure its a exponential increase rather than a linear one on the ramps as indicated). So 440000.
Positron said this, which both assuages some of my fears and confirms others.
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Give it a couple weeks of play time. No one should be able to get the "base they want" in the first weekend. There need to be goals you play towards.
Let me know if a month from now you are still in the situation of never affording a base, or are nowhere near close enough. Then we may have a problem, but from the sound of it, your group plays enough that you will be able to get what you want in your base sooner than you'd think.
Keep in mind that prestige is NEVER consumed when building a base. Whatever you buy with it can be sold for 100% refund. The only "Prestige-sink" is base Rent. With the system like this, Prestige comes into the world in great amounts, and leaves it in only small chunks.
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That's great that we can sell everything and modify the base as much as we want/need, but my 4 person RL supergroup is having a [censored] of a time just putting together the basics. So while I see his point of a mostly 1 way cash flow, i do think the initial bonus/prices need to be high enought to get energy, control, and 1 worktable. The bigger stuff can be more expensive, fine. But I want to take advantage of the new crafting system and refuse to disband my small SG.
It does make me wonder that considering the DoIDD is probably the single largest and most organized SG in the entire game, if they're having such issues you can figure that even if they get to the point of having Items of Power in their base, who they heck are they going to have to raid against?
Ok about the base rent the last thing i'd seen was on the beta boards (I think it was Recluse) stating it was 5% of Cost of Base and 5% of bankroll.
The Problem with the quoted post about No one being able to get the base they want in the first weekend is moot.
The numbers they're charging NO ONE is ever going to be able to afford those largest sized bases.
Even if I had 75 people working 2 or 3 hours a night no nothing but the best possible prestige earning method (which they'd be bored ot of their minds on) there's no way we'd be able to raise the funds for it, pay the rent, and allow people to build things.
While they say that tecnically very little prestige is actually lost.. who wants to go selling off chunks of their base just b/c they can't afford the rent that month?
If I've got 6 people trying to build equipment and they want to place the fruits of their salvage labor they would use up a minimum of almost 600k prestige (most things I'm seeing cost 100k or more, those items below 100k are generally above 75k) All of a sudden the SG's prestige is gone from a weeks hard work and a fight ensues when the SG base designer decides to sell off those items to get back the prestige used b/c they had already earmarked it for something else.
Also what happens when someone else sells something out of a base that you built? Does it go back to your add personal item inventory? Is it broken back down into salvage or is it just gone?
The OTHER thing to take into consideration is that we're paying MILLIONS for things like a Generator that some jackass will simply destroy in pvp. Do we get the prestige back when they destroy it? How about the salvage?
Several of my players have practially bankrupted themselves influence wise just to buy us a generator, mainframe and two work tables. You mean to tell me that it should take an SG weeks just to get a working base of the smallest variety?
I think that sucks. Especially when the SG has been around for over a year.
w00t Radio
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While they say that tecnically very little prestige is actually lost.. who wants to go selling off chunks of their base just b/c they can't afford the rent that month?
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Yeah its a bit excessive in that regard. Though I think that if you can't meet rent your base is still around just the power gets turned off to it so nothing functions. You can still enter it in this state.
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Also what happens when someone else sells something out of a base that you built? Does it go back to your add personal item inventory? Is it broken back down into salvage or is it just gone?
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You get back the Prestige, but the item is gonzo. Not saying I like this, just the way it works. It should net sum into the "Place Item" window as normal if you ask me.
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The OTHER thing to take into consideration is that we're paying MILLIONS for things like a Generator that some jackass will simply destroy in pvp. Do we get the prestige back when they destroy it? How about the salvage?
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AFAIK you get nothing back when the item is destroyed.
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It does make me wonder that considering the DoIDD is probably the single largest and most organized SG in the entire game, if they're having such issues you can figure that even if they get to the point of having Items of Power in their base, who they heck are they going to have to raid against?
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They are not the only ones.... Phoenix Prime has been here since day one is also one of the largest SGs on Justice (next to DoIDD of course) and we are having a pretty hard time with this as well. We even have tons of resources at our disposal (aka 50s) that could transfer influence to prestige, and we still would not be able to build everything we need.
Is it me or does this just sound screwed up? Maybe in about 6 months base raids will actually be relevant in this game (if anyone is left).
lvl 50 Energy Blaster
Protecting the Galaxy, one planet at a time......
@Capt Omega
For reference: Last night, an SG with 14 players online at the time managed to accrue approximately 150,000 prestige in just around 2 hours. No exploits, no manipulations of missions, just working together as an SG at common goal. It IS possible to rake the stuff in pretty fast.
Couple things, if it helps: a split team of mentors and sidekicks will yield dramatically more prestige than a team of even levels. I'm guessing this is by design too, since mentoring also yields SG badges. The SK will get a bigger bonus than the mentor for all kills and completions, so it pays to have both high levels and low levels working together. Secondly, two seperate teams of the same sg are spilling into the same coffers, so using supergroup chat as giant team chat now has a real utility.
So far, it looks like the prestige and base system is intended to reward an SG not based at all on size, but rather based on how well and frequently that SG works together. If your group is composed mainly of people who solo or pickup a lot, it's not going to matter how big they are, prestige accumulation will probably be lower.
Anyway, these are just observations; I'm not intending to flame anyone. Just felt that the discussion deserved some honest counterpoint.
-M
Marut, 50 FF/Rad/Power Defender - Champion
Leader of The Earthguard
Leader of The Galactic Empire
While 150K is impressive in two hours and you are correct, that amount is certainly attainable it still took 28 player hours (14 players X 2 hours each) to get.
If a sweet base with an Item of Power and good defenses costs 20million then you are looking at 3,733 player hours to build your base.
If your SG does exactly what it did for 2 hours a day they will have to spend the next 133 days earning enough prestige to build their base.
And if rent is really 5% and rent on that base costs 1 million a week your SG will have to do exactly the same thing for 2hrs a day for a little under 7 days every week just to pay rent.
I am certainly on the bandwagon that it should take time to get bases and a super sweet base should be hard to keep, but at the same time these numbers seem a bit excessive.
I have no clue how a small SG with only 10 players could possibly have a base with an item of power. They couldn't build and maintain a base good enough to withstand any attacks, their IoP would be destroyed regularly.
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For reference: Last night, an SG with 14 players online at the time managed to accrue approximately 150,000 prestige in just around 2 hours. No exploits, no manipulations of missions, just working together as an SG at common goal. It IS possible to rake the stuff in pretty fast.
Couple things, if it helps: a split team of mentors and sidekicks will yield dramatically more prestige than a team of even levels. I'm guessing this is by design too, since mentoring also yields SG badges. The SK will get a bigger bonus than the mentor for all kills and completions, so it pays to have both high levels and low levels working together. Secondly, two seperate teams of the same sg are spilling into the same coffers, so using supergroup chat as giant team chat now has a real utility.
So far, it looks like the prestige and base system is intended to reward an SG not based at all on size, but rather based on how well and frequently that SG works together. If your group is composed mainly of people who solo or pickup a lot, it's not going to matter how big they are, prestige accumulation will probably be lower.
Anyway, these are just observations; I'm not intending to flame anyone. Just felt that the discussion deserved some honest counterpoint.
-M
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Our SG's entire point is to work together.. very rarely do we team outside the SG. I have a feeling I know how you made the 150,000 Prestige and I can say that DoIDD has been able to make 70k Per Hour using 10 members working together. However that method is only good for a couple hours then everyone gets bored and wants to go off and do missions, and play the rest of the game, or go work on their villains or they simply have to log out b/c they only get a couple hours a day to play.
That 150k you earned in 2 hours wouldn't buy a generator. Something that in a base raid can be destroyed in six hits by a high damage dealer.
If you have a base where the rent hasn't been paid, weather you can still go into it or not is usless to the SG. People want and need to be able to use the Teleporters, medical facilities, and worktables to use that salvage they've aquired.
I can't imagine a small SG trying to get what DoIDD"s managed to do so far.. If your in a small SG and have managed to get a working worktable or two I applaud you with great zeal. We've spent over 200 Million in Influence and worked 10 - 20 people's butts off for the last 4 days and have barely managed to get things setup to the point we'ere at. (3 rooms, Entrance, 1 Generator, 1 Mainframe, 1 Bugged Mission Computer, 1 Basic Work Table, 1 Advanced Worktable and 150k Prestige in the bank) thats it.. thats all we've got to me thats what a small SG should be able to aquire without much hard work. We're still using the smallest rooms onthe smallest plot of land. It'll be six months minimum before we can expand enough to even THINK about Items of Power.
w00t Radio
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That 150k you earned in 2 hours wouldn't buy a generator. Something that in a base raid can be destroyed in six hits by a high damage dealer.
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Wow. If anyone ever gets a raid capable base going, I think I might consider destroying someone else's generator griefing. I understand that it's a viable tactic, but at a quarter million for the bare bones version, 1.5 mil for a quality crafted one destroying it sets the SG back by a huge amount. I couldn't bring myself to do it, that's just harsh. And i would have to think long and hard about not "/petitioning griefing" it if someone did.
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That 150k you earned in 2 hours wouldn't buy a generator. Something that in a base raid can be destroyed in six hits by a high damage dealer.
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Wow. If anyone ever gets a raid capable base going, I think I might consider destroying someone else's generator griefing. I understand that it's a viable tactic, but at a quarter million for the bare bones version, 1.5 mil for a quality crafted one destroying it sets the SG back by a huge amount. I couldn't bring myself to do it, that's just harsh. And i would have to think long and hard about not "/petitioning griefing" it if someone did.
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Oh yeah and in base raids any smart group is going to take out the control and or the generators first.. take out one or the other and all the defenses stop working. Especially Control since there's no such thing as a back up control (that I've seen) like there is the backup capacitors.
A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
w00t Radio
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Is it confirmed that destroyed items need to be replaced at full cost?
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Oh yeah and in base raids any smart group is going to take out the control and or the generators first.. take out one or the other and all the defenses stop working. Especially Control since there's no such thing as a back up control (that I've seen) like there is the backup capacitors.
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Oh yes... this was my favorite thing to do in Tribes. Sneak in, destroy the gens, wait in a dark corner until someone came to repair them, kill the repair man, wait til he disappeared to respawn... then repair the gens just enough so that they would provide juice (this way, everyone *including the repairman* thought that "someone else" had fixed the gens and then NO ONE would come down there again). Then, just before my cappers came into the Flag room and it's automated defenses, I'd kill the gens again. ZOOM.. away goes my capper team and without power, the NME could not really give good chase.
Loveable stuff... and you should expect to see such evil tactics becoming popular in Base Raiding. I fully intend to use similar concepts if my SG ever goes PvP (doubtful, tho.. but a heads-up, nonetheless).
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Is it confirmed that destroyed items need to be replaced at full cost?
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I never did an IoP raid so I don't know. I know there are some items that are supposed to help increase the chance that an item is repaired after a raid so I would assume if it fails that chance you loose it lock stock and salvage.
w00t Radio
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Is it confirmed that destroyed items need to be replaced at full cost?
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I never did an IoP raid so I don't know. I know there are some items that are supposed to help increase the chance that an item is repaired after a raid so I would assume if it fails that chance you loose it lock stock and salvage.
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The more workshops you have the better chance you have of having a destroyed part restored. Partially damaged items are fully repaired with no loss. Salvage items destoyed are gone forever.
Considering I miss 3 times in a Row when combining lvl 51 + 50 SOs to got to 51+. I don't like chances in CoH/CoV.
Now this only applies to raids fighting over the items of power. Freindly raids restore everything IIRC.
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
If you lose the placement Prestige when an item is destroyed, then infrastructure attacks are a very effective way to completely neuter an opposing SG's ability to raid, possibly putting them out of the competition for days or even permanently. Take out that crafted generator and you've put them in a world of hurt.
If you only lose the salvage but keep the prestige (similar to if you'd sold the item) then it's only a brief inconvenience.
@Mindshadow
The Department of Inter-Dimensional Defense on Justice worked its tail off this weekend and managed to earn enough prestige to build:
Control Room, Energy Room, Workshop (cheapest of each)
Place a Mainframe, Basic Generator, Basic Worktable, and Advanced Worktable.
Using the salvage everyone collected poolled together I was able to build a Generator on the Advanced Worktable. Boy was I disappointed to find out its going to take more than a week or more of the remaining members who are playing CoH to farm the prestige required to place it (1.5 MILLION Prestige) to place an item that 8 people got enough salvage to build in a couple days. Our current rate of prestige earning is under 100k per day.
I know there's quite a few folks out there that believe that bases should be built slowly and over time. However this snails pace doesn't cut it. At this rate its going to be months before anyone gets near raidable bases with Items of Power and all this salvage their collecting is USELESS b/c the SG's not going to allow them to place the item when they're trying to just pay for the basic rooms they need to house things as they slowly get prestige.
What I'm seeing right now, my SG's goal is a base that has:
Secure Secret Location (smallest version)
2 IoP Vault
2 Workshops with Six total Workbenches
1 Medical Area with 1 Medical Teleporter
1 Transport bay for a raid teleporter and regular teleporters
1 Control room for Mission computer and basic control needs
1 Energy room with space for 2 generators.
-All the appropriate equipment for these rooms
Lowest cost in CoV beta I could get for this was 20 Million Prestige.
If you do the math, 20 Million Prestige's rent is 1 Million Prestige every 2 weeks.
Our rate of less than 100k per day will mean that we'll barely have enough prestige to maintain that once we get the items let alone be able to pay for anyone who builds something from salvage and wants to place it in our base.
If I want to place this generator i created I need 1.5 million prestige.. even if we had 2 generators I could sell off that were already in place thats only .5 million and the other million would be hard to come by.. not to mention it would up the value of the base significantly and suddenly we wouldn't be able to make our base payments at all.
We had about 10 people working all weekend and managed to get about 70k on Satudray and about 100k on Sunday... then some of us spent some inf on that pathetic conversion rate just to get the worktables functioning.
Honestly.. prestige needs to be bumped up by a decimal place per kill. If its going to be viable you need to earn 30 prestige when in a team of 8 per kill not 3.
w00t Radio