Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
Apparently not 
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DJJester wrote:
Ed I suggest you pay attention to who's been leading the debate in this thread and not just reading one response to someone who initially posted ranting and raving semi-off topic talking about how things should have been done and attacking the devs for what they gave us instead of doing things his way.
It solves nothing and does nothing to further the conversation.
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Aha, you were "leading" the debate so people should listen to you instead.
It must kill you that I made better and more persuasive points that more people (read: everyone but you) agreed with. That must absolutely burn your britches, eh?
Sorry, but the whole SG peepee waving is complete immature bunk and it has no place at all in game development.
Every SG, no matter how small (even 1 person) should be able to put together a base, build things with salvage, etc. Even an SG of 10-20 people should be able to build a PvP capable base. There should not be obscene rent costs that make hard core play mandatory just to maintain what you have built.
These costs are crazy. The rent is crazy. The fact that you need a huge SG to do anything is crazy.
As I already said, the current system is inherently contradictory because it requires a SG so huge just to do a few things, that very few of the members will actually get to do anything. For every person who wants to build something, you'll need 10+ members supporting the stuff they built. Well, what if everyone wants to build stuff? Shouldn't they get to?
The system as designed is totally jacked up and poorly planned. It clearly caters to Uber Guilds, which is a very depressing trend to see by so many MMO developers. They cater to the Uber Guild weenies who rant and rave on the forums instead of designing content that can be enjoyed by EVERYONE who plays the game.
Everyone pays the same $15 a month. It doesn't matter if they are a casual player or a hardcore member of a huge SG that thinks they are the "Most Uber 3l33t d00ds EVAR!!!!!!!!" Content should be developed so everyone can enjoy it, not just a select, vocal, loudly whining few.
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it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it.
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once again, read.
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Your absolutly right.
*puts troll food away, puts Ed Anger on ignore*
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Why are you putting him on ignore when it was *YOU* that failed to read his post carefully enough to see the very important word "if"?
I see your "if" but I still do not see a Dev post that supports your statement.
And before anyone says anything . I'm a member of a 3 person VG. I don't expect to have a PVP base anytime soon .I should not have one . It should take time and work to get a basic functional base. But The current prices and rent make having anything function a long way off, if ever.
But What I do see is a total lack of response from the dev as to whether the system is working as design or what that design is.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
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Sorry, but the whole SG peepee waving is complete immature bunk and it has no place at all in game development.
Every SG, no matter how small (even 1 person) should be able to put together a base, build things with salvage, etc. Even an SG of 10-20 people should be able to build a PvP capable base. There should not be obscene rent costs that make hard core play mandatory just to maintain what you have built.
These costs are crazy. The rent is crazy. The fact that you need a huge SG to do anything is crazy.
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No one has said anything to that contrary, the examples provided were to show that NO ONE can achieve the largest stuff. If you had actually SAID THIS in the first place you would have gotten a respectable response.
Instead you opted to whine and not participate in the conversation. Hence my response.
To automatically assume I was saying that only large sg's should be able to do something is ludicrous.
Your "Everyone Pays the same amount" argument still holds no water b/c by that logic everyone should access to Peacebringers, Warhsades without having to work to get to 50. Everyone should be able to raid hamidon wihtout getting to level 45.
Its a tired old arguement that holds no value to anyone but those who want to whine.
The current system caters to NO one.. the "uber SGs" are finding it difficult to build a base just as the little SG's are.
Everyone's having a hard time with this system and there's no doubt about that. This entire thread was never bout Uber SG's, it was about doing the math to prove that no one would be able to use all the features which INHERITLY means that the small groups are screwed.
If you couldn't get that from the countless posts in this thread then you need to go back and reread the whole thing.
w00t Radio
so what youre saying is that you were also whining, but as long as there is math involved its ok.
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Should giant SG's have more nice things? Yes, they should, they have more people and therefore can accumulate the money for more nice things very quickly. But note the use of the word more. My SG can't afford barely ANY nice things. Really, all we have are two big, nice rooms with an awesome layout, but they are all decorative. So it's nice to look at, but I still have a huge amount of unusable salvage. I still yearn for base raids and the high points of having a secret lair in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ] *golf clap* I add a cookie to Bismarck's candy pile! I insist that after running his 100 miles, Bismarck be rewarded with no less than 300 calories of tastey treats! (hint: this is my Dev impression)
Anyway good luck getting a Dev response. I left CoH in march because they were affecting changes that would only significantly fix the game if some sort of ED system was in place. Now I come back to CoV and I read in the ED FAQ that ED was in the pipeline, with all changes having ED in mind since... MARCH! In summary: Cryptic lost out on about $100 of my cash because for weeks in march we couldn't get a statement on the possibility of ED. 
And don't expect the situation to improve. Mr. Emmert has been notoriously confused regarding cause and effect - on as many as a half-dozen cases - so when he got burned on the ill-fated "talents" expansion, he probably decided to be LESS forthcoming, rather then more so; i.e. not mention talents at all rather than admit that it's still in the conceptual phase, and the same for ED.
In summary... Cryptic doesn't mention changes until it's too late to rabble-rouse about problems. They think that this saves grief since we should "give it a few weeks" anyway... Yeah right.
I've come up with 3 or 4 great ways to get prestige so far, but since they all involve scamming/griefing, I'm just going to keep them to myself and hope no one tries one on me. But I've tested the methods in small doses with some account-laundering and trust me, they work. 
So, at least for villains, the prestige system kind of makes sense. Maybe they're trying to dull the hero side's head-start by makin prestige scam-friendly... Though I very much doubt that. LOL
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I see your "if" but I still do not see a Dev post that supports your statement.
And before anyone says anything . I'm a member of a 3 person VG. I don't expect to have a PVP base anytime soon .I should not have one . It should take time and work to get a basic functional base. But The current prices and rent make having anything function a long way off, if ever.
But What I do see is a total lack of response from the dev as to whether the system is working as design or what that design is.
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Actually... I believe the post that Ed_Anger is referring to was on the Beta Boards, which can no longer be accessed. I remember it also.
I'm some what suprised that this is the only point in this thread worth responding to.
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I'm some what suprised that this is the only point in this thread worth responding to.
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I'm going to hope that its b/c they're forumlating a solution and instead of just telling us they're looking into it they're going to start doing something to improve it.
In the meantime lets keep providing fact based evidence of how the system doesn't work.
w00t Radio
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In the meantime lets keep providing fact based evidence of how the system doesn't work.
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It doesn't work according to whom? You or the Dev's. Yes that was a retorical question... I know who doesn't consider the system to be working.
But based on everything seen so far, the Dev's do in fact seem to think the system works as is. Considering the effect the ton of posts had on ED, well... yeah.
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In the meantime lets keep providing fact based evidence of how the system doesn't work.
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It doesn't work according to whom? You or the Dev's. Yes that was a retorical question... I know who doesn't consider the system to be working.
But based on everything seen so far, the Dev's do in fact seem to think the system works as is. Considering the effect the ton of posts had on ED, well... yeah.
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Mathematically its not possible for anyone not even the largest SG's to ever afford the largest plots of land let alone be able to outfit them. Thats where the system currently and most obviously fails.
ED wasn't going to be stopped, somethings will be changed to account for ED. However its an entirely seperate situation. With ED the change dramatically changes gameplay but does not prevent everyone from being able to use the features of the game. The problems many of us are seeing with Prestige numbers as they are is that NO ONE will be able to afford the upper teir options that have been put into the game. That is where the difference lies.
Posting about issues in the game does effect change. Boss XP/HP Changes of Issue 3 were a good example of this as were countless changes that were reversed or drastically adjusted to several power sets (regen one of the most noteable).
w00t Radio
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If a base had both a Robotic Fabricator and a Flames of Hephaestus, would the effects stack? Can a base purchase multiple Robots/Flames? And can the Robots/Flames themselves be destroyed?
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Question reposted due to ... well ... not being answered.
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I do not believe the devs have given any direction on this. And since nobody has enough prestige to build this stuff yet and do a raid nobody can test it out.
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Each table can hold 2 aux items ...more tables more items to help repair your base.. sucks that we won't have numbers... are they 1%? 5%? 15?
I have 4 work tables going in our base (Basic Worktable, Basic Forge, Advanced WT, Advanced Forge) so I will have up to 8 of these Aux items. We have the prestege to lay these items down but I'm concerned about control since we are 20 away from going over board (Control room is maxed ATM) and since we aren't an IOP base anytime soon I've forgone crafting them.
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
As you can see I haven't posted often on the boards, but feel the need to say something. This may not be the best forum for it but alas. Me and my gf have been avid fans of CoH since August of last year and we've been eagerly awaiting bases and CoV. We have a small 10+ player hero/villain super group. We are completely overwhelmed and disappointed with how we are unable to build bases and would need more hours than we care to consider to do so. Throw in rent on top of it all and we'd rather not. It's wrong to hype an expansion game to Hero players and make them unable to use bases. Couple this with ED and we are both about to hang up our accounts with the rest of our SG friends until the next "fix" comes along and hopefully changes things for the better. Up until this point we'd had unwavering faith and support for the dev team. All we feel now is disappointed. Not to sound like another Im leaving until X or because of Y post, just wanted to say somewhere how dejected and let down we feel about the recent trends.
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DJJester babbled:
Instead you opted to whine and not participate in the conversation. Hence my response.
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Translation: I provided better arguments and better points that you, which everyone else in the thread agreed with, and felt were more important than your points, but since you don't like it, you are going to label it whining.
I participated in the conversation. I just made points that mattered to more people than yours. You seem to consider yourself some kind of Forum King and any thread you participate in has to proceed precisely the way you want it to.
Wake up and grow up. That isn't how forums work.
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DJJester drooled:
Your "Everyone Pays the same amount" argument still holds no water b/c by that logic everyone should access to Peacebringers, Warhsades without having to work to get to 50. Everyone should be able to raid hamidon wihtout getting to level 45.
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Apples and oranges. Everyone who wants to can level up to 50. Everyone who wants to can level up and join a Hamidon raid. Both of those things involve basic playing of the game (leveling up). Not everyone who wants to be in a huge SG... EVER. Developing a base system that effectively REQUIRES you to join a huge SG is why it is indeed something that caters to a minority of the player base. That is why the "everyone pays the same to play the game" argument is absolutely, 100% valid and applicable.
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DJJester erred:
The current system caters to NO one.. the "uber SGs" are finding it difficult to build a base just as the little SG's are.
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Wrong. Uber SGs are finding it difficult. Small SGs are aware that it is *impossible*. Impossible and difficult are not the same thing. You are attempting to draw an equivalency that is erroneous.
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DJJester cried:
This entire thread was never bout Uber SG's, it was about doing the math to prove that no one would be able to use all the features which INHERITLY means that the small groups are screwed.
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Here is a news flash: the things you think are important are not necessarily the same things that other people think are important. Just because you want to talk about one flawed aspect of the overall system does not mean other people cannot discuss OTHER flawed aspects of the system. The title of the thread is: "Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs." There is no stipulation that discussions can ONLY include issues related to large SGs or for the mathematical absurdities of rent.
I actually agree with many of the points raised on those issues, and as I already mentioned, I *am* in a huge SG. But there are OTHER issues that are even more important that need to be raised as well- so I raised them.
You mostly care about issues that will affect large SGs. Guess what: that is not what matters to the majority of players. The overwhelming majority of players of ANY MMO are not the hardcore, uber gamers in the big guilds.
That is why you are getting so frustrated that people find MY points to be more important than yours. My points affect more people and are therefore more important to them. Your points only affect people in large SGs. The fact that large SG members make up an unrepresentatively large percentage of forum posters would usually result in your point getting more attention. This is all the more reason to take notice when mine are the ones striking more of a chord.
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As you can see I haven't posted often on the boards, but feel the need to say something. This may not be the best forum for it but alas. Me and my gf have been avid fans of CoH since August of last year and we've been eagerly awaiting bases and CoV. We have a small 10+ player hero/villain super group. We are completely overwhelmed and disappointed with how we are unable to build bases and would need more hours than we care to consider to do so.
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This is precisely the kind of sentiment that is overwhelmingly pervasive right now in CoH/CoV.
Most players are NOT huge SG power gamers. Most players are in smaller SGs with a few friends and play casually. These are the types of folks that usually don't bother with game forums because that is just too hardcore for them. If you don't believe me, do some research and look for interviews and press releases from every commercial MMO to date.
The fact that we are seeing so many of these types of folks "coming out of the woodwork" to post about the inaccessibility of bases to small SGs and individuals should REALLY make the developers stand up and take notice.
The groundswell is growing fast. Do something sooner rather than later.
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If you get enough of the high-end SGs and VGs in the alliance, you can spank anyone on your server who gets out of line. Just put together a max sized group of HO loaded level 50 toons with min-maxed builds, and completely trash the base of anyone who raids you. Repeatedly if needed.
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And people wonder why there are nerfs to exploited areas of the game. Very heroic :/ The low rate of conversion and slow pace of earning prestige is because of this mentality.
Not that I agree with the pathetic rate we earn prestige, but I can see why the Devs did it that way. Why do so many people want to make the Devs justified in their nerfs?
The above was posted before I read though 14 pages of some good discussion (prolly more like 10 pages of good stuff and 4 pages of a big waste of my time). Now that I made it to the end, whew, I want to thank those that provided the calculations. It's very funny, IMO, that YOU have to do this and that Crypitc won't do this for us. Even after reviewing the calculations and the back-and-forth, this plan does not even look good on paper.
As I was testing in beta, I really felt like the bases were trying to ward off, or alienate, the casual gamer. I have been around since CoH beta and I remember the quote from Stateman telling us we should all be able to solo missions. That post was lost in the fire, but was restated by Statesmantelling us he never said that. Well maybe not in "this" forum, but it happened in beta. So that means we HAVE to team with others, ok no biggie. Now these bases come along and they suggest, if you want to participate in bases you must be part of a SG. So if you happen to buy CoH alone, that is not enough. No, you must buy CoV, too. Okay, now that you have both, let's really make you work...go join a SG, don't create one yourself, because it will take you many, many months to earn enough prestige to even stock your rooms (Just to turn the power on).
My point is, Cryptic is forcing us to fit into some vision of theirs. The CoV box says "Design your own Fortress of evil: Build a stronghold of villiany from the ground up using strategy and style. Construct bases with teleporters, hospitals and elaborate defenses in addition to an extensive set of furnishings." The box doesn't prepare you for the disappointment (even for the large or "uber" SGs) that come with an accounting system that is failed. I do not believe that a base shoudl be created overnight. But on the same note, I don't think it should take weeks to get the basics in place, just to turn around and pay rent on it. The larger supergroups do have an advantage here, simply because bases are not scaled in any way, and it is not right. I don;t expect an uber base if I am in a SG of 20, but and SG of 75 allows them to come up to speed much faster than a smaller SG can.
That said, the rate at which ALL players earn prestige is poor. Either that, or things are far too expensive. I would not expect top of the line right off the bat, but at least give me something to start a basic base once the SG is formed. And don't even suggest that 300,000 is enough to do that, since it allows a control room and an energy room without the ability to buy the items make them useful (turn power on). That poor "bonus" is just a slap in our face.
Hi all. For all you regular people that post, wow, you know your stuff, no matter what side you take.
Some observations:
-Do the devs ever respond in the forums anymore, or do they wait for players to come up with answers for people to debate.
-The few old dev answers I see want small posts because they are busy. Ok, to the point, when an SG/VG starts, give them 1.5 million prestige at creation (or some other big number). Yeah, COH will have more prestige to spend due to trade in, but big deal, we can adapt to working with something if we have something to work with! I like the amount I received in Beta for testing, it was perfect. Go with it!
-Ive seen a lot of SGs fragment in COV due to base construction. People see the huge monetary amounts needed and are not letting everyone base edit. Reason? Who wants to work weeks (months?) to build something someone could erase in minutes. Maybe more up front money could fix this, maybe not.
Last, have a DEV, not a player, answer yes or no on if anything is going to change. It would save so much time reading all these pages if we knew. Even if we knew that base cost was being looked at would tell us something.
Thanks.
Post deleted by Solarfox
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The fact that we are seeing so many of these types of folks "coming out of the woodwork" to post about the inaccessibility of bases to small SGs and individuals should REALLY make the developers stand up and take notice.
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Does the fact that most of these people are actually wrong, and a small (8-10 member) SG can pay for a base in 2-3 months time count for anything? A small functional base comes in at 1.2 million prestige BTW.
Most of these people are simply buying the exaggerated prices people are ranting about, and have no idea how much a base truly costs. A lot of people don't also have a good feel for how much prestige they can make a day...
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Mathematically its not possible for anyone not even the largest SG's to ever afford the largest plots of land let alone be able to outfit them.
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Hmm no that's not true...
75 people, 40 hours a week, 2k prestige per hour.
That works out to be 6 million prestige per week. 25.8 million prestige per month. That means the above group could buy the largest plot of land in 5 months and 2 weeks.
Rent on that would run them around 2 million/week, at 3.5%.
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Maybe you can find those 75 people that can do that and hopefully they will rent themseleves out to help the others in the game.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
My little SG is making 30K per week . Based on a base of 1.5 million /30K = 50 weeks to make that base.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
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Maybe you can find those 75 people that can do that and hopefully they will rent themseleves out to help the others in the game.
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I don't want that plot, and my point was the post said it was mathmatically impossible which is not true. It maybe impossible to do realisticly, but not mathmatically.
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My little SG is making 30K per week.
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How big is your SG? What level's are people? How many hours a week do you play?
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I have not seen anywhere that the Dev's have posted that there is a problem with the Prestige and base system. None in the Dev Digest or elsewhere in the forum. If you have proof of such post please post a link to it so the rest of us can see it.
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Peg, don't even bother, I have no clue what this persons last two posts said but they are here to simply start arguments.
They claim I was insulting when I was simply stating fact that ranting and raving about what the devs should have done and that just b/c one person pays the same amount as someone else means that everyone should be able to access all the content equally is pointless. They're a troll and nothing more.
w00t Radio