Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
I can't disagree with any of that Magpie. I'd say those calcs are good enough for me...
PvP zone missions are actually astonishingly good Prestige if you can solo them in good time. The problem is that you out-level them in short order because they're also astonishingly good XP.
During a "grind test" in Beta, I was able to make 2k Prestige or so per mission soloing PvP zone missions with my Brute, and clear a mission in 10 minutes if I was really on my toes. I did nothing but cycle these missions as fast as I possibly could.
This was pretty crazy however, and I'm not sure how sustainable it is, especially what with all the people trying to kill you now. 12k/hr is about the most Prestige/hr I can imagine anyone pulling in.
@Mindshadow
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Ah OK I see where you are coming from, I would not be shocked to hear that it is the Devs intent that a small 10-20 person SG should not be able to do raids. The system clearly prevents them from being able to...
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What a sad and scarey thought. I am not sure how many of you have seen super hero or villian bases in comic books and cartons, but lets think about how large some of those "Super Groups" where. Batman and Robin = 2 Small Hiden base would make sense, Superman = 1 (before the reset of the pets, family, kids, rodents, etc came in), The Super Friends and the Justice League of America...hmm sounds huge right? Ummm, nope Aquaman, Wonderwoman, Superman (it he didn't pay his rent so he lost the heat), the Wonder Orphans and their dancing monkey, Indian fellow that could grow big (little help), The flying Samuri / whirlwind chap (little help part 2), Batman and Robin (he was getting in trouble for having a secret club house with just a young boy I guess), The Flash (i think in a few) so that is 11 counting the Monkey, I don't think that "pets" count towards SG members. Too many times I see "look at the world we have created, where you can do anything, and everything like a super hero" Minus Solo. Minus be a SPECIALIZED support / nitch filling hero. Minus build a base as 1 person, let alone 10.
Magpie, I totally agree with the spirit of your post, but one point of clarity - aren't taxes due every two weeks instead of one?
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Magpie, I totally agree with the spirit of your post, but one point of clarity - aren't taxes due every two weeks instead of one?
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Bah he is right! I think it is every 2 weeks...double that base number then back up to the 100M range...I think
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Magpie, I totally agree with the spirit of your post, but one point of clarity - aren't taxes due every two weeks instead of one?
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I don't know quite honestly, as I'd mentioned my copy of CoV is yet to arrive so I don't have first hand experience. I'd assumed that it was every week, since no-one with the game had corrected me, and even Lord Recluse didn't correct what would be a quite major part error on my part.
From what I remember of the beta paying rent every 2 weeks could well be the case. Does anyone know for deffinate how often you have to pay rent?
Apparently it is two weeks, and I've got to say that I'm glad. Finding the value to be that low was pretty scary for the average group.
At least it's easy to correct my value for this (just need to double it), now we're back up at 113,333,333.3 MAPr (Max Accumulated Prestige)
This calls for new debate.
Assuming all the figures are good now, we learned from ***'s post that getting more Pr than the value I was using is quite possible (if you're willing to farm). We do still need to work out exactly what 110mil Pr will buy you, but the high end raid game does look better now, if still a bit far flung in places.
I'm all for bases taking awhile to build...god, leveling in this game is so fast sometimes, and there's nothing to do at 50 (well, for COH at least, can't speak for CoV.)
HOWEVER, having a super computer blown up...umm, can we just have "repair costs" to things that are destroyed instead of replacing them ? I mean 1.5 million to replace it ? Can we say there's a 10% repair cost on the item if destroyed. Sure, you don't want it destroyed, but....this is at least better.
I have no problem tho with how long bases are taking to be built. I don't see why it should be erected in a day and all the salvage gained at once. It's a goal of the game, like ONE DAY being 50...too many people wanna rush and make it to the end...for what ? I've been sitting on a lvl 50 for almost a year now in CoH...trust me, it's no fun at the top....with no where to go.
Served Cold: 50 Ice/Storm/Ice (retired)
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
Well Mag, we are up to 113M for max value....i think the largest secure plot costs 137M
Maybe I missed a decimal in my memory...
I played around recently with Prestige. Here were my findings...
Level 50 char fighting even con Min/Lt/Boss CoT in Portal Courtyard...
XP: 1852/4075/8151 (estimated)
Inf: 1297/4891/16303
Prestige: 10/35/125
You receive 70% of a Minion's XP in Influence, 120% of an Lt's, and 200% of a Boss'. (This is a constant throughout the game.) In this example, an Lt is worth 220% XP of a minion, and a boss is worth 440% XP. (This can vary depending on the capabilities of the mob.) It looks like Prestige follows the exact same proportions as Inf. Note however that Prestige is capped. My level 38 char earned 10/34/? Prestige fighting -1 Rikti. I'd guess that there's a curve from 1-35, then it's flat from 36 and on. Maybe I'll try some of my other chars later and find out what the curve is.
You need to defeat about 28,000 even con Minions to get from level 1 to 36, and 41,300 more to get to 50. I'm not sure about the scaling factor at low levels, but I'll give half credit for the minions below level 36. That means you get Prestige credit for roughly 55,300 even con Minions going from level 1 to 50. Note that if you fight higher or lower level mobs, it doesn't matter. You get more or less XP per mob, but the Influence and Prestige are proportional. Fighting only Minions at 10 per, you would earn about 553,000 Prestige.
There is a big difference fighting Minions, Lts, and Bosses. Fighting only Lts, you could level from 1-50 and get Prestige credit for about 25,000 Lts, which is about 875,000 Prestige. With bosses, it's 12,500 of them for 1,562,500 Prestige. Solo, you fight more Minions than anything else, and bosses are rare. But I believe the following number is a good generalization...
You earn about 750,000 Prestige going from level 1 to 50 in SG mode all the time. An entire SG worth of characters (75) going from 1 to 50 would earn 56 million Prestige. That 56 Million will be eaten away a bit by taxes, but not much. Assuming the SG levels from 1 to 75 over the course of 3 months, you'll still have over 50 million. Going from level 1 to 50 in 3 months assuming an average of 300 hours total for experienced people means an average of 3.3 hours/day and 2.5k Prestige/hour.
At the end of 3 months, what sort of base will you have? Remember, this is a max size SG with dedicated players who have gone from level 1 to 50. They can have a fairly large hidden base with lots of bells and whistles, or they can have a very small Secure base. This doesn't take into account craftable objects, and I hear they are expensive.
Realistically, this isn't gonna happen often. There may be a few SGs with enough active people to shuffle around into a single SG that they could earn Prestige like this. But for a majority of SGs, they're going to be stuck with a really small hidden base. I expect the only SGs that build a Secure base will be those that PL and farm massively for Prestige.
All that said, it doesn't take much for a small hidden raidable base, even with 5 IoPs and some extra stuff. Note that I don't know what else is required for a raidable base (Mission Computer? Raid Teleporter?).
Mil Room/Item
3.3 Hidden Spot (12x12) with space for 16 rooms at 2x2
0.0 Entry room (2x2)
0.4 Energy Terminal 1 (2x2) with Basic Generator (makes 1000 E)
0.6 Control 1 (2x2) with Mainframe & 3 Databases (makes 200 C, uses 350 E)
1.3 5 Vaults for IoPs (2x2), 6 Anchors scattered around
0.3 Workshop (2x2) with 3 tables (uses 135 C, 270 E)
0.2 Infirmary (2x2) with Basic Reclaimator & Rez Chamber (uses 50 C, 100 E)
0.2 Transport (2x2) with Teleport (uses 15 C, 80 E)
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6.3 million Prestige total
The huge dedicated SG above could make this base in about 10 days. It would take a SG of 20 people closer to 40 days, and a SG of 6 people 4 months. Cut down to 3 Vaults and you can stay with a Tiny Hidden Spot at only 2.8 million total for the base.
Can anyone post exact details about the items you need for a raidable base? I'm talking Prestige cost for mission computers or whatever.
Does anyone know of faster ways to earn Prestige? Exemping doesn't appear to make a difference. I haven't tried PvP zones to see if they make a difference. The mission completion bonus is 100% of XP in Inf, and the Prestige is scaled and capped as usual.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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If 1,530,000 = 2.7%
then 56,666,666.7 = 100%
( 1,530,000 / 2.7 = 566,666.7 )
( 566,666.7 * 100 = 56,666,666.7 )
56,666,666.7 is our sg's Max Accumulated Prestige (prestige banked and in the base).
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I could be wrong, but I think your calculations are off by 2 decimal places. 2.7% = 0.027, so shouldn't your numbers be:
If 1,530,000 = 2.7%
then 5,666,666,700 = 100%
( 1,530,000 / 0.027 = 56,666,667 )
( 56,666,667, * 100 = 5,666,666,700)
So that 5.6 Billion is the max sustainable base with a 1,530,000 rent payment every other week?
Yes you are wrong 
2.7% is 0.027, but your calculations are as if you are using 0.027% - which is 0.00027!
You calculate the percentage *either* by dividing by 2.7 and then multiplying the answer by 100, *or* you just divide by 0.027 in the first place.
Nice one Doc 
I believe that on top of what you have there, all you need to raid is the mission computer and raid teleporter, as you thought. Or that's what I've heard anyway. I'm not sure about the mission computer, but the raid tper is hellishly large, and I believe that it uses a fair whack of control and eng. Sticking that and the mission computer in might mean you have to upgrade power or energy. Which would also probably mean a room size upgrade.
Also, does anyone else remember hearing that to keep an IoP you needed 6 anchors, but you could only have 1 anchor per room? And then you couldn't put anchors in vaults, or something like that....I'm not sure, but I know there was some talk in beta about the minimum number of rooms you needed in a base to actually keep an IoP.
Also, thanks Brev
6 Anchors are required, one per room and they are not allowed in the vault or the entry room. This makes for a minimum of 8 rooms to hold an IOP.
Also for future reference, rent rate = 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596
Or, Rent = Prestige * ( 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596)
Or to get the maximum sustainable Prestige: MPre = (3596.5 * Rent) ^ 0.793903
where rent = the rate at which your sg gains prestige
so, if we assume a large SG can make 3,000,000 prestige every 2 weeks, then their max prestige would be 92,305,432 prestige.
This formula has a near perfect for the rent info provided so far.
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Also for future reference, rent rate = 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596
Or, Rent = Prestige * ( 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596)
This formula has a near perfect for the rent info provided so far.
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Does this formula approach 3.8% as its upper limit? Or does that need to be artificially established by a domain?
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Also for future reference, rent rate = 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596
Or, Rent = Prestige * ( 0.000278049 * Prestige ^ 0.2596)
This formula has a near perfect for the rent info provided so far.
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Does this formula approach 3.8% as its upper limit? Or does that need to be artificially established by a domain?
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Argh math, head, pain, owwwww..
lol moving on. I can't answer the mathematics behind it but the basic concept is that while we can have a raidable base eventually... there's a lot of this whole system that won't be attainable or used by the majority of SG's out of sheer difficulties around initially earning, replacing destroyed items, and placing crafted upgrades that SG members have total control over even when they're not allowed to modify the base.
w00t Radio
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Keep in mind that you can't put defenses in energy and control rooms with the hidden plots.
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Not true. If you buy the "secure" version of the room (that allows defenses), you can put as many turrets in there as the room allows. Secure plots do not change this situation at all (the number of turrets allowed is restricted by the room type only, and all room types are available in either plot type).
Of course the turrets proved mostly useless in beta, so this is small consolation.
The 3.8% upper limit on the rent would have to be artificially enforced, but its unlikely that anyone will ever get there. To reach the 3.8% cap, you would need to be taking in 6.5M prestige every 2 weeks. For an sg with 75 active members, each earning 3000 prestige an hour, they would all have to be farming prestige 14 hours a week.
Deleted so I don't come off as a smart [censored].
Nice Katin. Which on a more realistic level for active members (say 15 people who play everyday)...
15 Members would have to play 70 hours a week earning 3000 prestige per hour. Now I used to play a lot.. and I mean A LOT... but I never hit the 70 hour mark in a week.
w00t Radio
The funny thing is, the devs must assume that at some point, some group would exceed the upper limit. Else, why put it in? From what we're stating here, that seems highly improbable, and to me, that indicates that they should re-examine prestige gain, costs, or both.
Ack, so much math!
This to me is becomming more of a headache then fun. How is anyone not associated with a massive SG/VG all playing in SG mode all the time supposed to afford all of this?
We have about 50 people, all in VG mode and have done well for ourselves this first six days of COV, but if you were a small new VG, it seems it could be years before you could actualy utalize this function of the game.
Well back to farming ore and fletching arrows, or maybe fishing for hours on end.
Cheers!
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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If a base had both a Robotic Fabricator and a Flames of Hephaestus, would the effects stack? Can a base purchase multiple Robots/Flames? And can the Robots/Flames themselves be destroyed?
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Question reposted due to ... well ... not being answered.
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
Firstly, thanks to everyone for the replies, it's all really helping (and a Recluse reply, damn this thread is sexy now).
I've not had a chance to work much with the base value numbers that Jester provided, but that's mainly as I've been trying to rework my original calculations. In particular I've been trying to work out a new value for Pr / Hour. Here's what I've been thinking.
M'k, well Dainter87 estimated 2,200 Pr / Hour. Darthmord posted that he was getting 817 Pr in 15-20min. Other people generally posted that I was aiming WaaaaY too high with 5,357. I've got to agree. I did some limited testing today (read - did missions) myself, and here's what I figured I was doing.
OK, well it was me on my kinetics/energy def, examplared down to lv40 to fight with a friend on a lv40 stone/kinetics cont. We were doing his lv40 (rugged I think) carnie mission. It was an outside instance and I believe that we may have cleared it. All the mobs spawned at lv41, and they each gave 6 PR / Kill. Each group had 6 carnies in it, and apart from the named mission boss all the spawns were minions (if luits or bosses had spawned the average rate of Pr gain would have increased, they take longer but the Pr is generally more than worth the time).
6 (carnies) * 6 (Pr) = 36 Pr /group
(we were both on the same sg, so I could double the Pr here, but that would just mean halving it later, so I won't)
I estimate that we were going through about 1 group every 40 seconds. We're both old hands at the game so I know that we were going pretty damn efficiently, plus dual kinetics rocks your face. Admittedly we could kill faster with more dedicated damage dealing archetypes, but then most groups also have downtime. We didn't even slow down for the mission, so I know that our Pr / min is pretty constant.
1 group / 40 seconds -> 3 groups / 2 min -> 1.5 groups / 1 min
36 (Pr / group) * 1.5 = 54 Pr / min
60 (minutes) * 54 Pr = 3240 Pr / hour
Now 3240 isn't the full story. Firstly the mission Pr reward would add to the Pr gain. Then you've got going to contacts, finding teams, chatting to people, waiting on people that are away and all the other good stuff that slows teams down. Plus you have to take into acount less expreienced players going at different rates. And soloing, people don't always team, and teaming is generally faster.
The two estimates people had given me that I mentioned earlier were 2200 Pr / hour and ~2500 Pr / hour. Now my value clearly has to be lowered if it's going to represent an average amount of time (to take into account all the factors I listed above), but I'm still not going to lower it to ~2,000-2,500. This is as I'm still going for a generous value, even if the generous value isn't as generous as in my original post.
I'm going to set the new Prestige per Player Hour as 3,000. Let's hope that value works.
Now, for the amount of time people play.
When thinking about my sg/vg I do want to be using an active and large group as my example. So I'm going to mostly keep the values from my original calculations (a slight decrease in average play times was the only change). I had debated lowering these values further but I wanted to represent active groups, and as always I want a generous value.
So the values I'm using now for weekdays are an sg having 25 people online doing missions or hunting in sg mode (above lv25 or equivalent longer time) for 2 hours each. For weekends the values are an sg having 40 people online doing missions or hunting in sg mode (above lv25 or equivalent longer time) for 3.5 hours each.
Part of the factoring for my new timings was PVP. In full PVP people gain little xp, and I can see fairly hardcore raiding groups ploughing a lot of time into PVP, aswell as the time they'll spend actually being raided / raiding. This kept the time values down.
OK, now onto the calculations.
Weekdays:
25 * 2 = 50 PH
50 * 5 (weekdays) = 250 PH for weekdays
Weekends:
40 * 3.5 = 140 PH
140 * 2 (weekend days) 280 PH for weekends
Total PH's:
Total PH for a week = 250 + 280 = 510 PH
Total Pr for a week = 510 * 3,000 (the average player prestige constant) = 1,530,000 Pr
1,530,000 Pr / week. Now that's a hell of a lot lower than the value from last time. It's less than half of the value from last time in fact. If we halve the end value we achieved last time then we get ~50millon Pr. I'm going to use 50mill Pr to estimate the value of rent our sg would be paying. Since the rent is 2% at around 14,00,000 prestige and 3% at around 69,000,000 prestige then I'm going to say.......2.7% rent. Why? Sevens are luckly. We've been through this already.
OK, now if 1,530,000 Pr is the max amount my example sg can make per week, then this group can support a base where 1,530,000 is the amount of rent per week.
If 1,530,000 = 2.7%
then 56,666,666.7 = 100%
( 1,530,000 / 2.7 = 566,666.7 )
( 566,666.7 * 100 = 56,666,666.7 )
56,666,666.7 is our sg's Max Accumulated Prestige (prestige banked and in the base).
This value is quite close to the 50mill Pr I was using to estimate the rate of rent, so the rate of rent is probably quite close to being correct. So I'm going to take this as our final value (a hell of an improvement over the 3 times it took me last time).
Now 56,666,666.7 Pr is getting quite small. In fact that is quite very small, compared to the value of some base items and plots. As I said I am still yet to work fully through the values of base items, but the value does seem....low. That's all I'm saying for now.
*end math and rent calculations*
I've also been thinking about small sgs/vgs today. Now I never assumed that my 4 person sg would be able to go raiding, but at least before the beta I'd been thinking that a 20 man sg would be able to raid to a reasonable degree. Thinking about this now I'd still like smallish groups to be able to raid, however in reality, small groups being raid capable may be less of a want and more of a nessecity.
I say this as if my example sg is the smallest group able to provide for a reasonably well stocked raid base, then who will be raiding them? My thinking is, how many groups of that size will there actually be on each server? And more essentially how many of them will bother with raiding? We NEED 20-30 man groups to be raid capable, and not just if they are 20-30 powerlevelers. We need groups of 20-30 fairly casual players to at least be able to get the most basic of raid bases set up within a month or two, and then those bases need to be sustainable.
CoHs has always had the reputation of being one of the most accessable MMOs, a game you could pick up for half an hour and actually accomplish something in. The truely casual player will never be able to maintain a massive, secure base full of sapper turrets but they need to be able to do something in the raid system.
At the moment they have nothing, and we have no opponents.