Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
Post deleted by Solarfox
That is the thing about math you can prove anythign including that it can take a SG one month to get a small functional base. As long as you chose the number you want to use and ignore other facters such as aditional costs, (rent builds etc) time constaints, what game people are playing, what level they are (all 50s or just started playing so they are all less that 20) the actual time they play without getting bored with what they are doing etc.
Still the only thing matter that people are having problems with bases (such as maxing out salvage cause they don't have working tables and the Devs are suprised that they don't (Pos post))
And still there is no response from the Devs on the issue and what thier grand timeline and scheme for bases are and if things are working as they are meant to work for the general player base.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
Ok Hairsplitter, your point is moot as well as no one who's been speaking of this topic and providing facts has EVER said in this thread that small SG's wouldn't be able to get a base.
Will they be able to get a raidable base within a reasonable amount of time? No. They won't.
2k Per hour, 10 people, playing 10 hours each a week would be: 22.5 weeks. Nearly Six Months before that SG could participate in a base raid with a base that has no defensive capabilities other than their members.
That doesn't take into them wanting to be able to craft anything beyond the mission computer and a basic telepad.
We've been discussing in this thread how it is impossible for even the largest SG's to attain the largest plots of land and we've proved that quite thoroughly. Its impossible to afford the rent of just the larger plots of land let alone be able put anything on those plots.
w00t Radio
It seems my posts to this thread have caused people distress so I've deleted them.
[ QUOTE ]
Raidable? If that's the topic of discussion, then I guess I'll stay out, I don't really care one way or the other about raidable bases. If a small group is locked out of PvP base raids, that don't bother me any.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I always figured raiding was a function of a base...So when anyone said a "small functional base" I assumed that meant raid capable...because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be functional....
I'm not sure if you would call a car functional, if it only turned on and let you listen to music, but didn't actually drive anywhere.....
So anyway, yeah I think everyone is talking about raiding when they say functional...For someone who was a stickler about the term "mathematically impossible" I am suprised you were so loose with the term "functional."
The funny thing about a lot of the mathematical assumptions in this thread is the hours played variable. When you talk about average hours played per week, do you all mean specifically hours spent farming for prestige, or total play time? The way its phrased, I tend to think the latter, and if that's the case it causes more problems for the optimistic speculations. My SG is fairly small - the roster is probably close to 30, but really I only see about 10 people max on any kind of regular basis. That compares to the "average" numbers being dished out. However, most of those people have contributed 10k or less to prestige. The fact is, people want to do different things with their play experience. If everyone just wanted to try to rack up currency (prestige in this case) and build bases (although only a select few get to do the building for any given group), why wouldn't they just play the Sims? This is the main reason the costs are prohibitive. Over a long enough time frame, everyone's interest will drop, and sustained prestige gaining will become more and more difficult, making the rewards even more difficult to obtain, which reciprocally lowers interest even further.
[ QUOTE ]
When you talk about average hours played per week, do you all mean specifically hours spent farming for prestige, or total play time?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone farm for prestige? I earn 5k a night, playing for 2 hours or so a night, and I'm just doing my missions, not farming anything.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone farm for prestige? I earn 5k a night, playing for 2 hours or so a night, and I'm just doing my missions, not farming anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably to get more of it so they can build more stuff in their bases. That seems to be pretty obvious.
Plus farming prestige can get you upwards to 8K per hour and I would not be suprised to hear of someone doing more than that. Because if I can figure out a way to get 8K per hour then someone else certainly figured out a way to do probably 12k per hour...
[ QUOTE ]
Amidar wrote:
As I was testing in beta, I really felt like the bases were trying to ward off, or alienate, the casual gamer.
...
Now these bases come along and they suggest, if you want to participate in bases you must be part of a SG. So if you happen to buy CoH alone, that is not enough. No, you must buy CoV, too. Okay, now that you have both, let's really make you work...go join a SG, don't create one yourself, because it will take you many, many months to earn enough prestige to even stock your rooms (Just to turn the power on).
...
My point is, Cryptic is forcing us to fit into some vision of theirs. The CoV box says "Design your own Fortress of evil: Build a stronghold of villiany from the ground up using strategy and style. Construct bases with teleporters, hospitals and elaborate defenses in addition to an extensive set of furnishings." The box doesn't prepare you for the disappointment (even for the large or "uber" SGs) that come with an accounting system that is failed. I do not believe that a base shoudl be created overnight. But on the same note, I don't think it should take weeks to get the basics in place, just to turn around and pay rent on it. The larger supergroups do have an advantage here, simply because bases are not scaled in any way, and it is not right. I don;t expect an uber base if I am in a SG of 20, but and SG of 75 allows them to come up to speed much faster than a smaller SG can.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cryptic, are you listening?
Another non-hardcore player is trying to explain to you that this whole base design concept is outrageously flawed. He has 46 posts since he registered his account over a year ago. That's not a hardcore player. That is a casual player- in other words, the kind of player that makes up the majority of your customers and income.
Pay attention. The normally quiet masses are rumbling. I ask again: Are you listening?
[ QUOTE ]
Solarfox wrote:
Does the fact that most of these people are actually wrong, and a small (8-10 member) SG can pay for a base in 2-3 months time count for anything? A small functional base comes in at 1.2 million prestige BTW.
[/ QUOTE ]
2 to 3 *MONTHS* to build a small base is reasonable? Are you nuts? Oh wait, you are. You previously thought this was reasonable:
[ QUOTE ]
Solarfox wrote:
75 people, 40 hours a week, 2k prestige per hour.
[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that you actually think it is reasonable to base numbers on an entire maxed out SG generating 2k prestige per hour for 40 hours a week is just crazy.
Do you really think people should have to treat CoH/CoV as a second job?
Wake up, man. Sheesh!
DJJester actually provided a reasonable example:
[ QUOTE ]
2k Per hour, 10 people, playing 10 hours each a week would be: 22.5 weeks. Nearly Six Months before that SG could participate in a base raid with a base that has no defensive capabilities other than their members.
That doesn't take into them wanting to be able to craft anything beyond the mission computer and a basic telepad.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does that sound reasonable to anyone? Heck no it doesn't.
I would consider plowing through missions in SG mode faming prestige, mainly because of the reduced/removed influence gain at higher levels. I'm sure there are more efficient ways that involve a repeatable process which may be more appropriate to call "farming." That's more of a semantic issue. Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point is that very few people will be spending 100% of their online time collecting prestige for their SG, either now or in the future.
[ QUOTE ]
Plus farming prestige can get you upwards to 8K per hour and I would not be suprised to hear of someone doing more than that. Because if I can figure out a way to get 8K per hour then someone else certainly figured out a way to do probably 12k per hour...
[/ QUOTE ]
12k/hr is pretty close to the effective maximum. That was with soloing the "buff your side" missions in PvP zones at about 2k per mission, 10 minutes to complete. It may be possible to exceed that, but it would be hard to keep it going for long.
@Mindshadow
Ok now that many of you have done the math & theory. Let's get to the real part.... the reality.
1 SG- 10 players (not toons.. players)
The basic base (PvE not PvP):
Entry
Energy Room 2x2 - 150k
Generator- 225k
Control Room 2x2 100k
Mainframe- 150k
Control Terminal - 30k
Workshop 2x2 - 100k
workbench 25k
My SG currently has all of that, except the workbench, today. As in right this very moment. We will have the workbench tonight. This is what I deem a barebones base. Something to start using the salvage. The medical room and reclamators aren't a rpiority for us because you always have the hospital. We will be building a zone teleporter and all that other good stuff, but that comes with time.
Gaining prestige takes time. I really don't care that a larger SG can build that stuff faster. They have more manpower and should be able to do that. There should be benefits just like there are consequences. IMO, nobody should be able to instantly construct a NORAD sized facilty. The pricing of the items could be scaled down slightly (5- 10% maybe)..... but it needs to be a challenge to earn it. No instant gratification.
I agree that a base should take time and grow with time. One should not have a uber base right off just like no one should start at lvl 50 . The problem is the time vs preceive rewards. Yes you can show with math that a VG/SG with 10 people playing 10 hours per week can get a base in 2 months. And that is good but some basic assumsions are made in that caculations. IE they are constantly preforming at that rate. In real life there are variables (What lvls are the players, How are they playing, what else is going on that may affect the progression).
And while in the long scheme of things, 2 months may not really be bad in getting a base. The player really are have a hard time seeing that goal. I mean in character leveling they can see a progression as they level up to 50 from the moment they start. In base building there is nothing but seeing how little balance they have in relationship to where they want to be. And that where I see part of the problem is.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok now that many of you have done the math & theory. Let's get to the real part.... the reality.
1 SG- 10 players (not toons.. players)
The basic base (PvE not PvP):
Entry
Energy Room 2x2 - 150k
Generator- 225k
Control Room 2x2 100k
Mainframe- 150k
Control Terminal - 30k
Workshop 2x2 - 100k
workbench 25k
My SG currently has all of that, except the workbench, today. As in right this very moment. We will have the workbench tonight. This is what I deem a barebones base. Something to start using the salvage. The medical room and reclamators aren't a rpiority for us because you always have the hospital. We will be building a zone teleporter and all that other good stuff, but that comes with time.
Gaining prestige takes time. I really don't care that a larger SG can build that stuff faster. They have more manpower and should be able to do that. There should be benefits just like there are consequences. IMO, nobody should be able to instantly construct a NORAD sized facilty. The pricing of the items could be scaled down slightly (5- 10% maybe)..... but it needs to be a challenge to earn it. No instant gratification.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rubber I can't disagree with everything, but the problem comes in that they've implemented prices for the larger stuff that are unattainable. Thats what we've been discussing.
It should take time to earn a base, however taking months just to get to a raidable base for those SG's who can't afford to conver hundreds of millions of inf should be the case either.
75% of the point of bases was to provide base raiding. Right now its going to be a long time before that happens. Even with a 5-10% reduction the costs of replacing lost items during a raid that don't regen will bankrupt an SG. Let alone worry about the rent.
The real problem is the pricing structure scales up but the prestige coming in doesn't fit the scale. Its not even close.
The problem is you can't look at this as just base building. Its the crafting system too. All the little goodies you unlock from SG badges, build at the worktables, etc, costs lots of prestige to place. It shouldn't take an SG 2 weeks to make enough influence to place one piece of equipment that one person built from salvage that they got in one day.
w00t Radio
to add to my previuos post. When a person can go from lvl 1 to lvl 10 create a SG/VG and the enterance room all with in one weekend. Two months can be seen as a very long time with the idea of not seeing any benifiet until that time.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
Has anyone realized that it isn't possible to base raid yet, and it probably won't be possible until I7 when they add the 40-50 content?
Consider how long it will be until then, and how long you guys are hypothesizing it will take to build a raidable base... hmm..
[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone realized that it isn't possible to base raid yet, and it probably won't be possible until I7 when they add the 40-50 content?
Consider how long it will be until then, and how long you guys are hypothesizing it will take to build a raidable base... hmm..
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? Its possible to raid people now. Its just that no one has an item of power yet.
ITs still 100% possible to do an instant raid.
Base Raids are set to put everyone at level 40, no matter who's involved.
w00t Radio
[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone realized that it isn't possible to base raid yet, and it probably won't be possible until I7 when they add the 40-50 content?
Consider how long it will be until then, and how long you guys are hypothesizing it will take to build a raidable base... hmm..
[/ QUOTE ]
It is possible...Instant raids are operational right now, and theoretically if you had an IoP you could be raided, but I don't think anyone has one of those yet...
Anyway, it has to be possible, all of the advertising says it is possible right now. They would be looking at a major false advertising law suit if it were not possible...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raidable? If that's the topic of discussion, then I guess I'll stay out, I don't really care one way or the other about raidable bases. If a small group is locked out of PvP base raids, that don't bother me any.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I always figured raiding was a function of a base...So when anyone said a "small functional base" I assumed that meant raid capable...because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be functional....
I'm not sure if you would call a car functional, if it only turned on and let you listen to music, but didn't actually drive anywhere.....
So anyway, yeah I think everyone is talking about raiding when they say functional...
[/ QUOTE ]
At least for my group, Raiding is not included in our definition of functional. Right now my goal is for our base to enhance our PvE experience. This includes having the basic required Energy and Control units, a workshop, an infirmary, and a teleporter. Off the top of my head that is all that concerns us. We aren't even concerned with a Vault because obtaining an IoP would just open us up to having the base we worked hard to fund get smashed (and like someone else said, with my luck of combining a +0 and +1 enhancement and failing, I don't like the odds that base items will be repaired after an IoP raid).
I was floored when I realized that to have power, a Circuit Breaker would not give you power (50K prestige), you have to buy the Basic Generator (250K prestige or so). Even the barest essentials cost an arm and a leg to small groups.
Many thanks to the people who have run numbers showing the improbabilities of affording the top tier base components. I'm hoping this analysis leads Cryptic to slash construction costs a bit. And let's face it, if a break comes, it will be to construction costs and not rates of prestige accrual. It would be easier to datamine what SG's spent on base items than it would be to figure out the various ways they accumulated prestige, since there are varying rates of prestige accrual in the game. And if I've learned anything in the past 18 months, it's that they always go for the fix that requires the least amount of code change.
I would consider a functional base to be one with A working Worktable or a running teleporter or an infirmary. True it may not do everything you'd want it to do but it will DO something. Those of with reasonable expectations have already built their basic bases. One would think that this fact would have silenced the outcries of "Make it cheaper!" and "I'll NEVER be able to afford a base"
Apparently facts and dedication really don't mean much.
If this helps anyone with their math, my level 29 ice/ice blaster has earned 140K prestige since level 12 when he got an invite to the SG.
I've played in SG mode since the invite. Unfortunately, the next closest earner is a level 35 at about 40k.
An alt of mine, joined the SG in Outbreak, and NO prestige was earned in there 
That alt is level 12 now and has earned about 12k prestige, which seems to be average for the group overall.
With the 20k bonus, we now have about 550k prestige.
Since I just got CoV yesterday, and I was promoted to leader given my earning power, I decided to see the interface for base construction. Apparently, I was able to create an instance of one, but I figured wait for the other leaders before I did anything. I was going to pay the rent on it, but he said it had already been paid. Not sure of that, no prestige or influence had been deducted.
I've got 150 pieces of arcane, common and tech salvage, easily. Loooking forward to putting it to some use.
It does seem to me, though, that the interface of construction needs to have more information available. At this point, I'm uncertain if I try to make a room, just to see what functionality I can make for it, if I'll have to buy the room, and then if I see it's too small, be stuck with it. We're talking about a lot of time spent gaining the prestige, I'd hate to see it be wasted through user error or bad design.
Are there any confirmation screens that pop up before they take the prestige ? And at what point do they take it?
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
On the bright side you can buy room and equipment to your heart's content and sell it all back over and over without it costing ya a thing. That way one "could" set up a prety base with a big ole room for RP purposes and then set another one up for worktables and all for breaking down your salvage. From what I understand you would want to wait before crafting anything as it seems from what I hear that items crafted from salvage will be lost if deleted.
So with that exception in mind: Experiment away!
[ QUOTE ]
On the bright side you can buy room and equipment to your heart's content and sell it all back over and over without it costing ya a thing. That way one "could" set up a prety base with a big ole room for RP purposes and then set another one up for worktables and all for breaking down your salvage. From what I understand you would want to wait before crafting anything as it seems from what I hear that items crafted from salvage will be lost if deleted.
So with that exception in mind: Experiment away!
[/ QUOTE ]
Just remember that the work tables will not work unless there is power and controlÂ….which I am sad to say is not cheap.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mathematically its not possible for anyone not even the largest SG's to ever afford the largest plots of land let alone be able to outfit them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm no that's not true...
75 people, 40 hours a week, 2k prestige per hour.
That works out to be 6 million prestige per week. 25.8 million prestige per month. That means the above group could buy the largest plot of land in 5 months and 2 weeks.
Rent on that would run them around 2 million/week, at 3.5%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you can find those 75 people that can do that and hopefully they will rent themseleves out to help the others in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
What? Isn't everyone's SG actually just a sweatshop in Asia?
No? Oh ok.
A large SG is not going to be able to earn 2 million in a week.
NO SG that is capped at 75 members has been able to actually have ALL of their members on simultaneously even for a few minutes let alone 40 hours a week for 5 months, 2 weeks.
We've had over 100 members in our SG since last October we've never hit more than 50 members on at any given time. We average currently around 35-40 members on each night. That's split between CoV and CoH. We're not even earing 100k per day in the CoV side, the CoH side has been adjusted b/c of us trying to find the best way to earn, inf-transfers, and the fact that few of our members are still running regular missions b/c when they do they're in CoV doing it b/c its the new thing.
When you take into account reality, such as the fact that even if you find a really really good method of getting prestige getting the entire sg to do it at the same time or constantly isn't possible b/c people want to play their characters, progress through their own story arcs and have fun with the game, not grind for prestige.
Throw that into the equation and your back at NOT POSSIBLE.
JUST for argument's sake lets say our SG on Justice is earning 100k per day. Our SG is full, we have members in other SG's who we swap in and out when we can with those who havn't been online for a while to keep all the active folks in one sg earning prestige.
100k a day means 10 days to earn 1 million. 1 million is only half the rent you said that would need to be paid per week (which by the way rent is bi-weekly so either you mistyped or did your math wrong). Even if the rent is 2 million per 2 week period at 10 days for 1 million your still not making it to the 2 million point intime to pay your rent.
Not to mention the amount of time it will take the SG to earn the 137 Million needed for one of the larger plots will be 1,370 days IF they don't pay rent, maintain a raidable base, maintain a working base, allow members to craft, or well use any prestige what-so-ever. If you factor in a small base of 5 million just to make it raidable, you've just added approximately another 60 or more days onto that total number once you figure in rent and replacing a few lost items during base raids.
So your looking at roughly 1400 days to get JUST THE PLOT OF LAND. 1400 days for those not wanting to do the math is 3.8 years.
The average lifespan of a supergroup is less than 1 year, even many of the large ones never made it longer than a year.
w00t Radio