Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
I've got to admit that I've only dabbled in bases myself. My only experience is in the CoV beta playing with the 36mil free prestige. I've seen the prices of a few things, and I like how bases work. I also agree that bases should be a long term thing, if you want to get them to really high levels. Getting a raidable base in a month from a reasonably large sg doesn't sound too unreasonable to me.
My concern, like Jester's, is rent.
OK, let's take some base level figures. I'm pulling these figures right off my head so feel free to call them invalid or put forward better suggestions. I'm also going to be slightly generous about the amount of prestige we can feasibly gain.
OK, well from Marut's example. He said that 14 people working well together made 150k prestige in 2 hours. Good stuff. Alright, that sounded like plentiful co-operation and hard work was going on there, but I'll also assume that people will learn how to make prestige in even better ways than that in the future. So I'm going to say that 150k, from 14 people, in 2 hours, is the average rate that people make prestige when in sg mode above lv25.
14 people and 2 hours = 28 Player Hours (PH)
In 28PH they made 150k Prestige (Pr)
That makes 5,357 Prestige per Player Hour
I realise that that is far above how much an average person will make playing normally, looking for teams and soloing and the such, but as I said earlier, I'm going for a generous number here.
OK, time to estimate how long people play.
I'd like to note here that the largest my sg has ever been was about 20 people, so my numbers are really rough here. If Jester or any other large sg leader types want to call bull**** on me then by all means feel free. But bear in mind that these number are designed to be generous.
Alright, so let's start by assuming your sg has 70 members, members that aren't inactive, or alts, or playing on non-sg alts. Now let's start with weekdays. On an average weekday let's say that 25 members sign on for an average of 2.5 hours each (in sg mode, above lv25 or equivalent time on lower lvs).
25 * 2.5 = 62.5 PH
62.5 * 5 (weekdays) = 312.5 PH for weekdays
Now weekends. On weekends let's say that 40 members sign in for an average of 4 hours each (in sg mode, above lv25 or equivalent time on lower lvs).
40 * 4 = 160 PH
160 * 2 (weekend days) 320 PH for weekends
Total PH for a week = 312.5 + 320 = 632.5 PH
Total Pr for a week = 632.5 * 5,357 (the average player prestige constant) = 3,388,302.5 Pr
So that's my reasonably generous value of how much prestige an sg can make in a week. Now here comes the point. And it was a long time coming, it better be good.
At the top level of rent an sg will be paying 3.8% of their combined sg/vg base and prestige based assets in rent each week (or so I've been led to believe). Here's where I calculate the max amount of 'phat l3wt' a sg can accrue.
3,388,302.5 Pr is the max amount my example sg can make per week. Now this amount of Pr can support a base where 3,388,302.5 is the amount of rent per week.
If 3,388,302.5 = 3.8%
then 89,165,855 = 100%
( 3,388,302.5 / 3.8 = 891,658.6 )
( 891,658.6 * 100 = 89,165,855 )
89,165,855 Max Accumulated Pr (MAPr), well hmm. That raises a problem doesn't it? Namely that the rate for rent doesn't hit 3.8% until 170mill of the phatest l3wt is aquired!! And I don't know the exact value of rent for our situation as the graph isn't linear!!!
Cryptic, I decry the names of your exponential variables! Cast them down so the mortals may gaze upon them!
*ahem*
I appear to have lost myself for a moment there. Let us continue.
We may not have an exact rent % for 89,165,855 Pr, but given that 69,000,000 Pr gives a value of 3% and 170,000,000 Pr gives 3.8% on an exponential curve then we are quite able to estimate a value. I'm going to call it as 3.07% rent. Why? Sevens are lucky. Now, let's get back to the math, same method as preivously when we were using 3.8%.
If 3,388,302.5 = 3.07%
then 110,368,160 = 100%
( 3,388,302.5 / 3.07 = 1,103,681.6 )
( 1,103,681.6 * 100 = 110,368,160 )
So 110,368,160 MAPr. Looks good doesn't it? Does it hell. I estimated the rent of 3.07% off 89,165,855 MAPr, now we need to raise the rent value back up a small amount to allow for the change. 110,368,160 Pr is still closer to 69,000,000 Pr than to 170,000,000 Pr , and given the nature of the curve (exponential), I will now recalculate to a rent of 3.25%. Now to calculate the MAPr again, same method as the last 2 times. (This is the last time I'll calculate the rent value. This one should be more accurate than the last time but all rent values are guesses here, so I doubt whether or not trying to bring any more precision to the rent will actually increase accuracy beyond this point)
If 3,388,302.5 = 3.25%
then 104,255,460 = 100%
( 3,388,302.5 / 3.25 = 1,042,554.6 )
( 1,042,554.6 * 100 = 104,255,460 )
And it's done
104,255,460 is our sg's Max Accumulated Prestige (prestige banked and in the base).
Now here is where you come in.
Firsly I need sg leaders to call bull**** on the 'player hour' parts of my calculation. Secondly, and more essentially, I need someone who's copy of CoV has arrived (unlike mine ;;_;
to find the values of expensive plots for bases, massive power generators, huge control consoles and other stupidly good base items (a large, secure compund sounds like a good start) so that we can calculate exactly what 100million prestige will buy you.
The point I've really been trying to make is that 100mil's worth of prestige is really the most any sg will manage to accumulate. If we figure out that a massive, well equiped base with super powered turrets, awesome defences and some basic social space can be bought under this then fine, I can live with that. Only the biggest sgs in the game should have bases of that magnitude. On the other hand, if for 100mil then you can't buy the largest plot of land then fit a generator on it....then something may need to be done about the rate prestige is gained.
Please tell me if you find any errors in my calculations, but also, PLEASE don't tell me there are any errors in it......
Magpie
Magpie, some of your numbers are good some are assuming a bit much I think.
If you want exact numbers for plots of land etc toss me a global chat tonight (@DJ Jester) and I'll pop into the DoIDD base and let ya know whats what.
w00t Radio
Magpie,
OK, I'd say your PH is high, but I have no proof to dispute it. Just 25 players playing that long might be high...
Second and more importantly, the 5,357 per hour earning rate is probably high to put across a whole week of playing. I do not believe an SG can sustain that rate for a whole week. I believe they would get bored real quick doing the same task over and over again.
Thirdly (if that is a word) your method would make it so that prestige farming is the only thing the players in the SG do. 100% of their time is spent prestige farming. 0% is spent on raiding, missions, COV, building a base. This obviously is a problem.
Fourthly (again is that a word?) your calcs are for if the SG only spent their prestige on rent. There would be no buying of anything else, or replacing something that got destroyed...
Now having said all that, the basic premise is correct and your numbers hold a lot of water. I believe your points are all valid and give readers a good thing to look at when they are forming their opinions on whether or not prestige is out of whack...All in all great post!
I figured that my values for the time players spend on and how much they can make in an hour would be off, it's why I need the help with it. If anyone posts what they believe to be more realistic numbers then I'll gladly put them in and recalculate things around them. I might get that done tonight, but I'm working off GMT time (it's currently 10:10pm), so I might not. Either way, I'll have it updated tommorrow.
Also Jester, if you could be on around 12am-1am GMT (7pm-8pm Eastern US) then I'll meet you on then and we can get things sorted out. I could be on a little earlier or later than that, but not by much. If I don't see you then I'll send you an e-mail/pm/whatever with some ideas.
The largest Hidden base, a "Massive Hidden Complex" is about 26.5 million, according to an excel spreadsheet I got off another thread. That's just for the plot of land. There are too many unknowns concerning functional objects and crafted objects to determine what size functional rooms you'll need, and what you'll need to stock them with. But it's fairly safe to say that you can have a Massive Hidden Complex with all the bells and whistles for under 100 mil. The non-Secure rooms are fairly cheap, and the non-crafted items are fairly cheap as well.
The biggest Secure base, a "Massive Secure Complex" is 137.8 mil. Add in multiple big Control and Energy rooms, functional items, etc., and you're talking 250+ mil. Good luck doing that. Maybe if every player on a server worked for the SG you could do it, rotating people in and out of the SG based on timezones. But that isn't gonna happen.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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The largest Hidden base, a "Massive Hidden Complex" is about 26.5 million, according to an excel spreadsheet I got off another thread. That's just for the plot of land. There are too many unknowns concerning functional objects and crafted objects to determine what size functional rooms you'll need, and what you'll need to stock them with. But it's fairly safe to say that you can have a Massive Hidden Complex with all the bells and whistles for under 100 mil. The non-Secure rooms are fairly cheap, and the non-crafted items are fairly cheap as well.
The biggest Secure base, a "Massive Secure Complex" is 137.8 mil. Add in multiple big Control and Energy rooms, functional items, etc., and you're talking 250+ mil. Good luck doing that. Maybe if every player on a server worked for the SG you could do it, rotating people in and out of the SG based on timezones. But that isn't gonna happen.
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My Football math Calculations show to have a base that large to hold an item of power and strong enought to defend will be about 1 billion Prestige. Supercomputer, Defenses, Gauntlets, etc
I have a feeling Summer of 2006 the big raids will begin . . .
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
Thanks for the input Dainter, I agree with what you said about the numbers. What I actually wanted to reach with the amount people can make per hour is how much they could make during fairly normal play, not farming. Just currently I have squat to go on, so I made the number high, then I can work down.
Oh, and thirdly is deffinately a word ^^, although 'forthly' might be quaternary? Who knows.
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Fourthly (again is that a word?) your calcs are for if the SG only spent their prestige on rent. There would be no buying of anything else, or replacing something that got destroyed...
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This is the only point where you might have missed what I meant. I was intentionally calculating the point where an sg could afford nothing but rent. I only wanted to get the max value of prestige (or equivalent) that you could own, getting to that point would be a massively laboured and increasingly slow-going task at the high end. Maintaining that value of equipment, as you said, would be nigh impossible if you were actually being raided.
Magpie I'm actually going to be on the air with w00t Radio from 7 - 9 eastern. After 9 i should be available though.
w00t Radio
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This Novbember we're giving away great stuff courtesy of our friends at Logitech! Z-2300 Speakers, PSP Accessories, PS2 Accessories and Copies of the newest Burnout Game for PS2 and PSP!
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So what month does Novbember come after? I don't have that one on my calendar...
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I know there are some items that are supposed to help increase the chance that an item is repaired after a raid so I would assume if it fails that chance you loose it lock stock and salvage.
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Yup. I built some of these items in beta. They increase the chance of repairing a destroyed item by a WHOPPING 5%. And you can have only one per workbench, so I assume that only one will work for any given crafted item (the one attached to the workbench that created the item).
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
As per Magpie's Request I'll get some costs posted so folks can do the math.
I just have to log into game at Lunch and grab them hehe forgot to leave my UI on during screenshoting lol.
w00t Radio
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So what month does Novbember come after? I don't have that one on my calendar...
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Novbember is right after Hopetober.
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This is the only point where you might have missed what I meant. I was intentionally calculating the point where an sg could afford nothing but rent. I only wanted to get the max value of prestige (or equivalent) that you could own, getting to that point would be a massively laboured and increasingly slow-going task at the high end. Maintaining that value of equipment, as you said, would be nigh impossible if you were actually being raided.
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Ah I see now...I did mis that part of it all.
My SWAG for the amount of prestige a person can earn in an hour doing the normal stuff, missions, some street hunting, some chatting with friends, just playing, is 2200.
Oh, SWAG = Stupid Wild A$$ Guess
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
Here are the figures for building rooms. This does NOT include costs of actually placing Items. As items that are crafted through worktables do not tell you before you craft them how much Prestige it will costs to place them.
Figures for Upgrading Plots:
Hidden (From Smallest to Largest):
0
3,307,722
4,671,491
6,597,540
8,623,310
11,271,093
14,027,605
17,458,263
26,573,949
Secure (From Smallest to Largest):
11,250,000
20,000,000
31,250,000
48,828,125
70,312,500
101,250,000
137,812,500
Vault Costs:
250,000
750,000
1,500,000
(start secure versions)
1,500,000
2,250,000
3,000,000
9,000,000 (only vault capable of holding 2 IoP's in one room)
Medical:
150,000 (max 4 Medical Devices)
525,000 (Max 12 Medical Devices)
Workshop:
100,000 (max 2 worktables)
400,000 (max 3 worktables)
Transport:
150,000 (Max 2 teleporters)
150,000 (Max 2 teleporters, slightly larger room)
(start secure versions)
600,000 (Max 4 teleporters)
600,000 (Max 4 teleporters, slightly larger room)
1,350,000 (Max 8 teleporters)
Defense:
1,500,000
3,000,000
4,500,000
6,000,000
12,000,000
14,000,000
37,500,000
Control:
100,000
150,000
750,000
1,500,000
(start secure version)
1,750,000
2,500,000
3,950,000
5,000,000
5,950,000
6,250,000
8,450,000
12,500,00
Energy:
150,000 (Max 1 Generators)
750,000 (Max 1 Generators)
900,000 (Max 2 Generators)
900,000 (Max 2 Generators)
(start secure version)
2,900,000 (Max 2 Generators, 2 Defense)
4,900,000 (Max 2 Generators, 4 Defense)
8,900,000 (Max 2 Generators, 8 Defense)
16,900,000 (Max 2 Generators, 16 Defense)
Decorative:
150,000 (all sizes cost the same)
w00t Radio
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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Thats STILL a chance I'm not willing to take considering it would take well over a week to re-earn the prestige to rebuild it. Especially for a 1% increase in a stat.
Thats NOT a good deal for the SG. Not even close.
w00t Radio
Why should a crafted item cost anything to place at all? We found the parts for it and made it ourselves.
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Why should a crafted item cost anything to place at all? We found the parts for it and made it ourselves.
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The crafted items are better than that which you can buy (often by a lot) so I understand them havnig costs..
However the costs are fare too high.. considering that my SG with 20 people working for several hours was only able to come up with about 100k prestige.. in a day.
w00t Radio
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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Thats STILL a chance I'm not willing to take considering it would take well over a week to re-earn the prestige to rebuild it. Especially for a 1% increase in a stat.
Thats NOT a good deal for the SG. Not even close.
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Well there's also the question of how many hitpoints it has. If it's a lot, who would bother damaging the supercomputer in a raid? You'll be too busy fighting/accomplishing objectives to do that, I'd guess.
And that consists of destroying anchors or interacting with stuff, right? Not the supercomputer...
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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So if something is permanently destroyed, you have to re-purchase it at the same prestige price as the original? If so, this is directly contrary to Positron's statement that there are no "prestige sinks", except for rent.
I disagree with losing any base item permanently because of a raid...rather, you should be able to rebuild/repair it with salvage or some other player-created item. But having to repurchase the core item entirely, at current prestige prices, will really turn alot of people off even wanting to have an IoP.
Could you please clarify what happens if a core item (generator, etc) is destroyed?
In early raid testing on COV mainframes went down in 6 hits from a stalker.
Having never seen a placed super computer I can not say how many hit points it has, but if it is anywhere close to 6 hits you can bet that it will be destroyed during a raid...
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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If a base had both a Robotic Fabricator and a Flames of Hephaestus, would the effects stack? Can a base purchase multiple Robots/Flames? And can the Robots/Flames themselves be destroyed?
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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In early raid testing on COV mainframes went down in 6 hits from a stalker.
Having never seen a placed super computer I can not say how many hit points it has, but if it is anywhere close to 6 hits you can bet that it will be destroyed during a raid...
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Ouch. I retract my statement.
I was thinking more like an RTS I guess, where placeables have bajillions of hitpoints.
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Why should a crafted item cost anything to place at all? We found the parts for it and made it ourselves.
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I have to agree 100% here if we have the power and control placement should not cost anything.. At best a minor and I mean minor adjustment to rent maybe..
Now I am fully behind risk verses reward with base IoP raids.. But I suggest that items should all most never be destroyed in a IoP raid..
For example, firstly items attacked by villains take damage at x damage (where x= 100%) an item becomes disabled...
then based on item type control, energy, defense and others they each have a very low chance to be destroyed (my example would be 3%, 2%,10%,and 5% chances accordingly).. otherwise it takes a varying degree of damage which can be repaired by investing x amount of salvage (of the appropriate type) or prestige..
There has to be risk vs reward with out this everyone will have multiple IoPs
This risk has to be proportionate to how many IoP you have (use this to increase destroyed possibility some) But if weeks of work go down the tubes just because you finally got one IoP and a sg /vg with 5 comes in whomps you very soon base raids will become no better then the DAOC relic wars of old where one realm dominated the other and many of the other realms lost heart or switched to the other side
this can take what should be a fun and challenging PvP event and trun it into nothing but a Hard Core Whizzing Contest.
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"...Where did you learn to do math? 5% of 20,000,000 is 1,000,000..."
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Well, that's true. But rent never gets anywhere near 5%.
According to Positron (posted on the Beta boards so I can no longer retrieve it), bases have the following rent costs;
0 - 1,000,000 = no rent
1,000,001 - 14,000,000 = 1%
16,000,001 - 69,000,000 = 2%
69,000,000 on up = 3%
Rent maxes at 3.8%