Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
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This system is SEVERELY broken in the way that it encourages and rewards only the most "uber" of Uber Guilds, and leaves smaller guilds (and individuals) completely in the cold.
Here's a little hint: we all pay the same for this game.
Designing the equivalent of "player housing" and making it something that is only available on the "Guild/Supergroup level" is a terrible idea.
Then making it so you also have to have a HUGE, incredibly active Supergroup to partake in any of the cool features, is just a terrible idea squared.
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Ok..
1) The Smaller stuff is coming.. think about it this way.. the large supergroups are working out the bugs before you have to worry about it.. and believe me.. there have been MANY bugs to deal with (one player of my SG lost 71 MILLION influence doing a transfer to prestige)
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.
w00t Radio
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If a base had both a Robotic Fabricator and a Flames of Hephaestus, would the effects stack? Can a base purchase multiple Robots/Flames? And can the Robots/Flames themselves be destroyed?
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Question reposted due to ... well ... not being answered.
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I do not believe the devs have given any direction on this. And since nobody has enough prestige to build this stuff yet and do a raid nobody can test it out.
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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If a base had both a Robotic Fabricator and a Flames of Hephaestus, would the effects stack? Can a base purchase multiple Robots/Flames? And can the Robots/Flames themselves be destroyed?
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Question reposted due to ... well ... not being answered.
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My understanding is that multiple Robotic Fabricators stack- so you build 8 RFs, you get +40%. Do they stack with the arcane versions? No clue. Now the real question is:
How many Robotic Fabricators can you afford to build before the cost-benefit ratio becomes unsustainable?
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This system is SEVERELY broken in the way that it encourages and rewards only the most "uber" of Uber Guilds, and leaves smaller guilds (and individuals) completely in the cold.
[/ QUOTE ]It seems to me that, except for the current accounting problem, the system is actually OK. Even a small SG can get the basics within a few months of dedicated play (working ,teleporters, crafting tables, and reclimators), unless their toons are lvl 25-40 (but thats a different problem).
Additionally, the advantage afforded by defensive corridors and the like are relatively small. Base defense really comes from the players, not from the fancy equipment. You dont have to have the best of everything to have a raid capable base. Just the players needed to defend it. (Limiting the number of attackers/defenders to 8 for a raid on a one IoP base would be a good idea though).
A large SG with 4 items of power will be at a relative disadvantage to the smaller/newer SGs with 1 or fewer items. The large SG will have a smaller list of possible raid opportunities since there will be fewer SGs with the same or more IoPs. At the same time that SG will be raided more often, and by a larger variety of SGs. They will struggle constantly to keep their stuff. Thats the way it should be.
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DJJester wrote:
1) The Smaller stuff is coming.. think about it this way.. the large supergroups are working out the bugs before you have to worry about it.. and believe me.. there have been MANY bugs to deal with (one player of my SG lost 71 MILLION influence doing a transfer to prestige)
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How about release things that EVERYONE can use first. Then more people are testing it. Or here's another idea: test it fully, and don't release buggy crap.
The above changes nothing. Waiting months for stuff that everyone can enjoy is absurd. This is basically advanced player housing because Cryptic figured out modern MMOs have player housing. Well, implementing it on the guild level first, and not on an individual level is just foolish. That just means a lot less people get to enjoy the feature.
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DJJester wrote:
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
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First of all, the SG I am in is so huge we actually have to use 4 SGs for the members (and probably need more soon as well). I would classify it is a traditional "Uber Guild" (Forgotten Legion on Triumph, www.forgottenlegion.net) So be careful when you make assumptions.
Secondly, large supergroups should NOT have any coded advantages. They already have tremendous advantages from their sheer size. In our big SG, you can set up virtually any Trial, Task Force, or group with incredibly ease- even on the fly. You barely even have to plan them because there are so many people available. Small SGs already have huge disadvantages because they cannot do that. But that is their choice, so that's fine. But don't go and cripple them even further by deliberately releasing MAJOR content that is heavily biased towards Uber Guilds.
Thirdly, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore, large SG players. So 75 casual players pay just as much to play the game as 75 people in a maxed out SuperGroup. Why should the people in the Uber Guild get to enjoy one of the most significant new pieces of content but the casual players have no hope of enjoying it at all? That's crazy. It is bad game design and it just doesn't make sense.
Sure, some immature, pee-pee waving, Uber Guild nimrods love the idea. Probably the same folks here who think just because their SG has been around for a long time, they should automatically get more prestige. Sorry, stop thinking you are anything special just because you are in a big SG. You aren't special. Each member is still ultimately just a single customer. Thinking you are entitled to a better experirence or more features than anyone else is asinine, selfish, and misguided.
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DJJester wrote:
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.
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I participated by explaining how poorly designed the whole concept is. The huge flaw here is that it is enormously biased towards huge Uber Guilds. I'm IN one, and I still think this. If anything, that proves I do not have an inherent bias that is controlling my opinion.
The whole system is inherently contradictory as well. If you want to enjoy the content, you need to be in a huge SG. But if you are in a huge SG, there are too many people for everyone to have editing privileges, or for everyone to be able to craft things (the costs would be way too high). But if you are in a small SG, where more people COULD be allowed to "do stuff", you don't have enough prestige to do anything.
It is totally jacked up from the core design and needs a complete overhaul.
Actually, wasn't a variable dropped somewhere in the calculations of how much a group could afford? Where does upkeep fit in? I believe it is a separate entity or is it part of rent?
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My understanding is that multiple Robotic Fabricators stack- so you build 8 RFs, you get +40%. Do they stack with the arcane versions?
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Let's see, if I remember right, a robot fabricator is the thing that gives +5% chance of repairing an item if it is destroyed in a base raid. Yes?
If so, then I personally built 3 of them for the base I created in beta. But each one must be "attached" to a workbench. If you want more than 3, you'll need more than 3 workbenches (and the associated costs of each).
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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My understanding is that multiple Robotic Fabricators stack- so you build 8 RFs, you get +40%. Do they stack with the arcane versions?
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Let's see, if I remember right, a robot fabricator is the thing that gives +5% chance of repairing an item if it is destroyed in a base raid. Yes?
If so, then I personally built 3 of them for the base I created in beta. But each one must be "attached" to a workbench. If you want more than 3, you'll need more than 3 workbenches (and the associated costs of each).
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Absolutly correct. so really its a max of 15% without going overboard on tables.
w00t Radio
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DJJester wrote:
1) The Smaller stuff is coming.. think about it this way.. the large supergroups are working out the bugs before you have to worry about it.. and believe me.. there have been MANY bugs to deal with (one player of my SG lost 71 MILLION influence doing a transfer to prestige)
[/ QUOTE ]
How about release things that EVERYONE can use first. Then more people are testing it. Or here's another idea: test it fully, and don't release buggy crap.
The above changes nothing. Waiting months for stuff that everyone can enjoy is absurd. This is basically advanced player housing because Cryptic figured out modern MMOs have player housing. Well, implementing it on the guild level first, and not on an individual level is just foolish. That just means a lot less people get to enjoy the feature.
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DJJester wrote:
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
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First of all, the SG I am in is so huge we actually have to use 4 SGs for the members (and probably need more soon as well). I would classify it is a traditional "Uber Guild" (Forgotten Legion on Triumph, www.forgottenlegion.net) So be careful when you make assumptions.
Secondly, large supergroups should NOT have any coded advantages. They already have tremendous advantages from their sheer size. In our big SG, you can set up virtually any Trial, Task Force, or group with incredibly ease- even on the fly. You barely even have to plan them because there are so many people available. Small SGs already have huge disadvantages because they cannot do that. But that is their choice, so that's fine. But don't go and cripple them even further by deliberately releasing MAJOR content that is heavily biased towards Uber Guilds.
Thirdly, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore, large SG players. So 75 casual players pay just as much to play the game as 75 people in a maxed out SuperGroup. Why should the people in the Uber Guild get to enjoy one of the most significant new pieces of content but the casual players have no hope of enjoying it at all? That's crazy. It is bad game design and it just doesn't make sense.
Sure, some immature, pee-pee waving, Uber Guild nimrods love the idea. Probably the same folks here who think just because their SG has been around for a long time, they should automatically get more prestige. Sorry, stop thinking you are anything special just because you are in a big SG. You aren't special. Each member is still ultimately just a single customer. Thinking you are entitled to a better experirence or more features than anyone else is asinine, selfish, and misguided.
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DJJester wrote:
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.
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I participated by explaining how poorly designed the whole concept is. The huge flaw here is that it is enormously biased towards huge Uber Guilds. I'm IN one, and I still think this. If anything, that proves I do not have an inherent bias that is controlling my opinion.
The whole system is inherently contradictory as well. If you want to enjoy the content, you need to be in a huge SG. But if you are in a huge SG, there are too many people for everyone to have editing privileges, or for everyone to be able to craft things (the costs would be way too high). But if you are in a small SG, where more people COULD be allowed to "do stuff", you don't have enough prestige to do anything.
It is totally jacked up from the core design and needs a complete overhaul.
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I agree with cambios. Bad implementation of a good idea.
Honestly, I think the base construction system works very well, I think the idea of bases is very nice. I do think the dev's put quite a bit of work into it too. But I, like many, complain of the hard times that will fall on small SG's.
I dislike people, in groups I'm fine, but prolonged exposure to people makes me feel like I should be their friend, but I don' t want to be. So making a huge SG is out of the question, because the obligations I will feel will only serve to make me angry and unmotivated to play the game. The only people I really want in my SG are few, and I know most of them in real life. I can only really see our SG getting to 10 people, because I'm picky and hate crowds. I don't think I should be chastised for that.
Should giant SG's have more nice things? Yes, they should, they have more people and therefore can accumulate the money for more nice things very quickly. But note the use of the word more. My SG can't afford barely ANY nice things. Really, all we have are two big, nice rooms with an awesome layout, but they are all decorative. So it's nice to look at, but I still have a huge amount of unusable salvage. I still yearn for base raids and the high points of having a secret lair in the first place.
I'm not asking for a big [censored] generator for 1.5K energy and however much control a mainframe gives. Hell, I don't even WANT 1.5K energy. All I really want is a worktable, maybe an infirmary or one of those other neat rooms. Then to have my base grow from that. I don't think that's asking too much right?
Hell, I don't mind playing a month before I get the infirmary, but I do mind playing for a month before I can do anything at all. I do mind not being able to do the fun parts of having a base because we're a small VG. I ESPECIALY mind racking up loads of items I can't use. That's like holding candy in front of my face, then telling me to run 100 miles. Let's not forget every two weeks they're going to add onto that distance. This irks me to no end.
Another grievous problem, rent. What kind of pansy villains have to rent space? Don't I have like, slave children building this thing or something evil? Don't the robots I summon come from my orbiting robotics station or something awesome like that? I constantly see the game forcing me to play like a classic comic book villain. I'm driven by money and revenge, as well as the thirst for power in a large organization(Archons), but if I have no reason to attack something I can't. That's because classic comic book villains didn't run around murdering pedestrians. That just wasn't their thing. I respect that. But I don't remember the Joker paying rent on his warehouses. I don't remember some short [censored] walking up to Superman's arctic fortress and ringing the bell. "Excuse me Mr. Superman, we need that prestige now." I don't remember ANY of that!
The whole thing just drives me insane. I see the reasons why we can't do things and why other villains attack us. As a group, all the villains in the game have had the same persona forced upon them. I can't be especially money grubbing or especially violent towards pedestrians. That's just not classic. The Joker wanted money and generalized insanity all around him. The game lets you do that, you use the newspaper to track down people who piss you off, you rob banks, and its all very classical.
Which is nice, but I want to beat people and make them build my fortress for me. Another question, why can't I get a cheap generator? Yet another question, if I'm so freaking evil why can't I just burn the bodies of the thousands I slaughter to power my base? I'll use their entrails to build a damn mainframe. Hell, I'm a robot in the game, I'll get the blueprints off the internet. Oh wait, I'm not allowed to do that, because that's not damn classic!
The Joker never paid rent! Why the hell should I!? Carnage ran around murdering whomever he felt like, should I not be able to do the same? Do you remember the Hulk having any sort of regard for human life? What's that? No? Then why should I! I want my base, I want my damn generator, and I want to use all this damn salvage! ARRRRG!
BISMARCK GO CRAZY >_O!
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DJJester wrote:
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
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First of all, the SG I am in is so huge we actually have to use 4 SGs for the members (and probably need more soon as well). I would classify it is a traditional "Uber Guild" (Forgotten Legion on Triumph, www.forgottenlegion.net) So be careful when you make assumptions.
Secondly, large supergroups should NOT have any coded advantages. They already have tremendous advantages from their sheer size. In our big SG, you can set up virtually any Trial, Task Force, or group with incredibly ease- even on the fly. You barely even have to plan them because there are so many people available. Small SGs already have huge disadvantages because they cannot do that. But that is their choice, so that's fine. But don't go and cripple them even further by deliberately releasing MAJOR content that is heavily biased towards Uber Guilds.
Thirdly, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore, large SG players. So 75 casual players pay just as much to play the game as 75 people in a maxed out SuperGroup. Why should the people in the Uber Guild get to enjoy one of the most significant new pieces of content but the casual players have no hope of enjoying it at all? That's crazy. It is bad game design and it just doesn't make sense.
Sure, some immature, pee-pee waving, Uber Guild nimrods love the idea. Probably the same folks here who think just because their SG has been around for a long time, they should automatically get more prestige. Sorry, stop thinking you are anything special just because you are in a big SG. You aren't special. Each member is still ultimately just a single customer. Thinking you are entitled to a better experirence or more features than anyone else is asinine, selfish, and misguided.
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The more people working together the better a base should be. This game is all about teamwork and if you can't get that then your playing the wrong game.
I never assumed anything in my statement I based my comments off of sheer fact. 75 people is currently the max that can be in any one SG. My sg before I5 had 8 SGs of characters we consolodated that down by removing some characters and filling a few that weren't full. We now have 6 SG's. That is irrelevant b/c no matter what you can not have more than 75 people earning prestige at any given time for an SG. 75 people working towards a common goal should be able to reap a better reward that 74, 73, or 1 person..
Screaming about how they should have implemented player housing isn't going to solve anything. INstead of saying what they should have done try suggesting how to fix what we have. Effecting change will only come from solid fact based posts pointing out where existing systems are failing and need to be adjusted not replaced.
The devs have already gone throught he process of designing the system and desiging what they believe would work best and I can gaurentee you that they know more about the system and what was best to implement than you do.
However showing them shortcomings of the system and making suggestionson how to adjust it at this point is exactly what they need.
Work with the devs don't sit there and whine. It gets you nowhere.
w00t Radio
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2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.
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no one here is arguing that a larger group shouldnt be able to have a bigger base. right now if you have a small group you will never be able to participate in a pvp base in any meaningful way. keep your useless comments to yourself, thanks.
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2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.
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no one here is arguing that a larger group shouldnt be able to have a bigger base. right now if you have a small group you will never be able to participate in a pvp base in any meaningful way. keep your useless comments to yourself, thanks.
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Actually thats exactly what Cambios was arguing.
w00t Radio
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Should giant SG's have more nice things? Yes, they should, they have more people and therefore can accumulate the money for more nice things very quickly. But note the use of the word more. My SG can't afford barely ANY nice things. Really, all we have are two big, nice rooms with an awesome layout, but they are all decorative. So it's nice to look at, but I still have a huge amount of unusable salvage. I still yearn for base raids and the high points of having a secret lair in the first place.
I'm not asking for a big [censored] generator for 1.5K energy and however much control a mainframe gives. Hell, I don't even WANT 1.5K energy. All I really want is a worktable, maybe an infirmary or one of those other neat rooms. Then to have my base grow from that. I don't think that's asking too much right?
Hell, I don't mind playing a month before I get the infirmary, but I do mind playing for a month before I can do anything at all. I do mind not being able to do the fun parts of having a base because we're a small VG. I ESPECIALY mind racking up loads of items I can't use. That's like holding candy in front of my face, then telling me to run 100 miles. Let's not forget every two weeks they're going to add onto that distance. This irks me to no end.
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actually, this is what he says. reading comprehension is your friend. hope you and your uber huge supergroup have fun building your base and having no one to pvp with.
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Should giant SG's have more nice things? Yes, they should, they have more people and therefore can accumulate the money for more nice things very quickly. But note the use of the word more. My SG can't afford barely ANY nice things. Really, all we have are two big, nice rooms with an awesome layout, but they are all decorative. So it's nice to look at, but I still have a huge amount of unusable salvage. I still yearn for base raids and the high points of having a secret lair in the first place.
I'm not asking for a big [censored] generator for 1.5K energy and however much control a mainframe gives. Hell, I don't even WANT 1.5K energy. All I really want is a worktable, maybe an infirmary or one of those other neat rooms. Then to have my base grow from that. I don't think that's asking too much right?
Hell, I don't mind playing a month before I get the infirmary, but I do mind playing for a month before I can do anything at all. I do mind not being able to do the fun parts of having a base because we're a small VG. I ESPECIALY mind racking up loads of items I can't use. That's like holding candy in front of my face, then telling me to run 100 miles. Let's not forget every two weeks they're going to add onto that distance. This irks me to no end.
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actually, this is what he says. reading comprehension is your friend. hope you and your uber huge supergroup have fun building your base and having no one to pvp with.
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Please read all of a thread before posting. His original post:
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This system is SEVERELY broken in the way that it encourages and rewards only the most "uber" of Uber Guilds, and leaves smaller guilds (and individuals) completely in the cold.
Here's a little hint: we all pay the same for this game.
Designing the equivalent of "player housing" and making it something that is only available on the "Guild/Supergroup level" is a terrible idea.
Then making it so you also have to have a HUGE, incredibly active Supergroup to partake in any of the cool features, is just a terrible idea squared.
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Ed I suggest you pay attention to who's been leading the debate in this thread and not just reading one response to someone who initially posted ranting and raving semi-off topic talking about how things should have been done and attacking the devs for what they gave us instead of doing things his way.
It solves nothing and does nothing to further the conversation.
w00t Radio
insulting people who have real grivances does nothing to further the conversation, ie calling their comments "useless"
as it is, i completely agree with him. one of the main selling points of cov was bases and pvp, and everyone should be able to participate, not just the largest supergroups. the way the system is set up now itll take 6 months to a year to build a pvp base for a smaller group, thats not acceptable.
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insulting people who have real grivances does nothing to further the conversation, ie calling their comments "useless"
as it is, i completely agree with him. one of the main selling points of cov was bases and pvp, and everyone should be able to participate, not just the largest supergroups. the way the system is set up now itll take 6 months to a year to build a pvp base for a smaller group, thats not acceptable.
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NO one was argueing that small Sg's shouldn't be able to participate.. every example I used was showing that mathemeatically even the LARGEST SG can't afford the largest base plots let alone all the stuff in the base.
Ranting about what the devs should have done isntead of talking about how to fix what we have is useless and its not an attack its fact.
w00t Radio
it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it. there are already many posts with numbers here, some more with people stating their opinions cant hurt to get the message across that the player base is not happy.
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it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it. there are already many posts with numbers here, some more with people stating their opinions cant hurt to get the message across that the player base is not happy.
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The devs have NOT stated anywhere officially that the 'system is flawed' Unless you've got a redname post that in the Dev Digest about the costs of Prestige that myself and countless others can't see nothing has been said about the system at all by the devs.
Now what was the point of your post? That you want to sit here and whine just beacuse you can? Well congratulations, mission accomplished.
Some of us are trying to actually help effect change. If you come into a thread that I am participating in and you post against that possiblility just to whine then you better believe I'm going to comment about it. I did NOT attack anyone I simply said its not needed and not wanted and to take it elsewhere.
Now lets get back to the topic at hand...
w00t Radio
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it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it.
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once again, read.
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it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it.
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once again, read.
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Your absolutly right.
*puts troll food away, puts Ed Anger on ignore*
w00t Radio
if you start insulting people, expect insults back, dear. good riddance.
I have not seen anywhere that the Dev's have posted that there is a problem with the Prestige and base system. None in the Dev Digest or elsewhere in the forum. If you have proof of such post please post a link to it so the rest of us can see it.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
do you see the "if"? can no one read?
This system is SEVERELY broken in the way that it encourages and rewards only the most "uber" of Uber Guilds, and leaves smaller guilds (and individuals) completely in the cold.
Here's a little hint: we all pay the same for this game.
Designing the equivalent of "player housing" and making it something that is only available on the "Guild/Supergroup level" is a terrible idea.
Then making it so you also have to have a HUGE, incredibly active Supergroup to partake in any of the cool features, is just a terrible idea squared.