Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs
By
Amidar,
Posted on: 2005-10-31 13:56 in Base Construction
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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Thats STILL a chance I'm not willing to take considering it would take well over a week to re-earn the prestige to rebuild it. Especially for a 1% increase in a stat.
Thats NOT a good deal for the SG. Not even close.
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Well there's also the question of how many hitpoints it has. If it's a lot, who would bother damaging the supercomputer in a raid? You'll be too busy fighting/accomplishing objectives to do that, I'd guess.
And that consists of destroying anchors or interacting with stuff, right? Not the supercomputer...
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Think about it this way..
If the supercomputer is the only control your base has (due to costs of rooms and equipment this would be quite likely for a long time to come) if that is taken out all base defenses, med facilities, etc shut down. So that if the defenders die they now have to go to a hospital and run back to the base portal where an attacker simply goes back to their base and runs to the raid teleporter.
In addition it takes one stalker six hits to wipe out a basic generator. The basic control equipment is similar. The supercomputer's not going to be that much tougher so, while the defenders are distracted defending their IoP or other vital systems it takes one person with invis or a good respawn point to run to the control room or generator room and shut the whole base down and cripple the SG for possibly weeks to come if those items don't regen after the raid.
If there's a grudge there between the SG and VG or SG and SG... they're going to hurt them as much as possible financially as well as trying to get that IoP.
w00t Radio
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In early raid testing on COV mainframes went down in 6 hits from a stalker.
Having never seen a placed super computer I can not say how many hit points it has, but if it is anywhere close to 6 hits you can bet that it will be destroyed during a raid...
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This could also border on griefing...you can bet that most raiding parties will fully destroy core items and anything else they can find whenever possible. Rest assured there will be alot of griefing complaints from raids if things can be permanently destroyed.
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In early raid testing on COV mainframes went down in 6 hits from a stalker.
Having never seen a placed super computer I can not say how many hit points it has, but if it is anywhere close to 6 hits you can bet that it will be destroyed during a raid...
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This could also border on griefing...you can bet that most raiding parties will fully destroy core items and anything else they can find whenever possible. Rest assured there will be alot of griefing complaints from raids if things can be permanently destroyed.
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Its not griefing. Its a valid tactic in a base raid. Thats the nature of PvP.
The prices for everything to replace items is just far to unreasonable and potentially could set the sg back by MONTHS. No one wants a useless base.
w00t Radio
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This could also border on griefing...you can bet that most raiding parties will fully destroy core items and anything else they can find whenever possible. Rest assured there will be alot of griefing complaints from raids if things can be permanently destroyed.
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Its not griefing. Its a valid tactic in a base raid. Thats the nature of PvP.
The prices for everything to replace items is just far to unreasonable and potentially could set the sg back by MONTHS. No one wants a useless base.
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You're technically correct, but this is 6 of one, half dozen of another. The "griefability" factor arises because of the high prices of everything.
I think a far more equitable and immersive solution is to not make anything permanently destroyable, but NOT autorepair any damaged items...instead, you'd have to repair them by crafting replacement components using salvage.
Picture this, immediately following a raid:
SG Leader: "Nice job defending, everyone! Let's assess the damage. Please check your assigned areas and give me a damage report."
SG Member 1: "Power generator at 30%"
SG Member 2: "Control terminal at 20%"
SG Leader: "Blast! What's the estimated time to repair?"
And so on. It will also be more realistic, in that you just can't immediately go raid someone else to get an IoP back (if you lost it in the raid)...there's some downtime, where you need to repair everything.
During this downtime, you'd lose the bonus from your IoP, which is even more incentive to repair the damage.
Perhaps some of this is already built in to the game, but my main point here is that given the prohibitive cost of core items, their permanent destruction is just too much of a risk for many SGs.
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I figured that my values for the time players spend on and how much they can make in an hour would be off, it's why I need the help with it. If anyone posts what they believe to be more realistic numbers then I'll gladly put them in and recalculate things around them. I might get that done tonight, but I'm working off GMT time (it's currently 10:10pm), so I might not. Either way, I'll have it updated tommorrow.
Also Jester, if you could be on around 12am-1am GMT (7pm-8pm Eastern US) then I'll meet you on then and we can get things sorted out. I could be on a little earlier or later than that, but not by much. If I don't see you then I'll send you an e-mail/pm/whatever with some ideas.
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Last night, I was in an Unyielding difficulty mission with my controller in sg mode. She made a total of 817 prestige in 15 to 20 minutes. I can normally do 3-4 missions per hour with her if I push myself, 2-3 per hour if I don't. From what I've recorded of my prestige gathering thus far, this appears to be about the typical rate for my controller whenever I play her (800 to 850 prestige for a typical mission with ~45 mobs).
As per my figuring... it would take me around 529 missions at that level of reward in order to build a basic supergroup base that had the entry, control room, energy room, workshop room, generator, mainframe, and basic workbench. That's on top of the existing amount of prestige I already have and that I bring the SG total up to 15 people from 11.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
This discussion really adds justice to the Devs getting rid of the SG member cap. That way every member of the group can have all their alts in the group and whenever they play, they will be able to bring in Prestige for their group.
Of course if they refuse to do this, then it would be highly logical to either reduce the amount of prestige that things cost or increase the yield of prestige from missions and such. Another alternative would be to give 50's a bonus to prestige since they no longer earn influence and most are shelved after they hit the 50 mark.
Positron said in a post that "why would anyone want to have anyone but 50's in their group." Well my answer to that would be because there are very few supergroups that can even fill the 75 member cap with 50's. Besides that a lot of people like to play alts instead of their 50's, so more or less people won't have an SG full of 50's.
I just think that they need to do SOMETHING about the situation as the game because a chore and not fun just to be able to do something in it that is fun. That's counter-productive in my mind.
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A Supercomputer costs 1.5 mil to place... loose that in a base raid as well and you just got a huge chunk of hurt put on ya.
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Taking down an item in a raid does not automatically mean it is permanently destroyed. There is a base chance that any destroyed item is fully restored at the end of the raid (I don't have the stats in front of me so I can't quote the number). This chance is increased by building Robotic Fabricators and the Flames of Hephaestus. Each adds a percentage to the recovery chance.
And, of course, for in instant raids everything is restored to full at the end of the raid.
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But there's a very good chance it will be destroyed. And if it's an item created by salvage, particularly if it's an item created by rare salvage, the hit on prestige is only part of it.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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On weekends let's say that 40 members sign in for an average of 4 hours each (in sg mode, above lv25 or equivalent time on lower lvs).
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First, nice post Magpie. I agree with your general assessment. Second, I realize you were going for "best case," but I think it's really much worse than you predict. Another factor is that players start gaining infamy/influence at a progressively lower rate somewhere in their 20s and none post 35 if they run in SG-mode all the time. Our SG has already been having discussions about this. We want to get a nice base ASAP, but we also want to be able to buy enhancements for our villains. I, for one, don't plan to run in SG-mode much post 20 (or whenever the infamy drop becomes noticeable). Ideally this wouldn't be an issue after I have one L40, as I could mule infamy to my lower toons, but I'm not so sure about that. With heroes, the influence doesn't really start to pile up until the 40s, so I'm not expecting villains to really have a lot of excess infamy until they increase the level cap. (Or, at least not for several months, whichever comes first.)
I think that, at least for a while, most people are not going to want to run in SG-mode in their late 20s and 30s, so that they can buy at least some SOs. That's just going to further compound the problem you have detailed, by significantly reducing the average prestige per hour, IMO.
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This discussion really adds justice to the Devs getting rid of the SG member cap. That way every member of the group can have all their alts in the group and whenever they play, they will be able to bring in Prestige for their group.
Of course if they refuse to do this, then it would be highly logical to either reduce the amount of prestige that things cost or increase the yield of prestige from missions and such. Another alternative would be to give 50's a bonus to prestige since they no longer earn influence and most are shelved after they hit the 50 mark.
Positron said in a post that "why would anyone want to have anyone but 50's in their group." Well my answer to that would be because there are very few supergroups that can even fill the 75 member cap with 50's. Besides that a lot of people like to play alts instead of their 50's, so more or less people won't have an SG full of 50's.
I just think that they need to do SOMETHING about the situation as the game because a chore and not fun just to be able to do something in it that is fun. That's counter-productive in my mind.
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agreed!!
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Well there's also the question of how many hitpoints it has. If it's a lot, who would bother damaging the supercomputer in a raid?
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Greifers. If they can raid a SG just to force them to spend another 3 million prestiege to replace their crafted items then it's worth it to them just for kicks. Who knows why they do what they do, but they enjoy it and they're good at it. They won't bother with the IoP, they'll just take out your most expensive items for fun so you'll spend thousands of in game hours to "earn" them back.
Keep in mind that you can't put defenses in energy and control rooms with the hidden plots.
EDIT: I know it's not griefing and it's a valid offensive tactic, but there will be groups that do this strictly for greifing purposes. Even legitimate raids may suffer from the "kick him when he's down" factor.
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On weekends let's say that 40 members sign in for an average of 4 hours each (in sg mode, above lv25 or equivalent time on lower lvs).
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First, nice post Magpie. I agree with your general assessment. Second, I realize you were going for "best case," but I think it's really much worse than you predict. Another factor is that players start gaining infamy/influence at a progressively lower rate somewhere in their 20s and none post 35 if they run in SG-mode all the time. Our SG has already been having discussions about this. We want to get a nice base ASAP, but we also want to be able to buy enhancements for our villains. I, for one, don't plan to run in SG-mode much post 20 (or whenever the infamy drop becomes noticeable). Ideally this wouldn't be an issue after I have one L40, as I could mule infamy to my lower toons, but I'm not so sure about that. With heroes, the influence doesn't really start to pile up until the 40s, so I'm not expecting villains to really have a lot of excess infamy until they increase the level cap. (Or, at least not for several months, whichever comes first.)
I think that, at least for a while, most people are not going to want to run in SG-mode in their late 20s and 30s, so that they can buy at least some SOs. That's just going to further compound the problem you have detailed, by significantly reducing the average prestige per hour, IMO.
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Thats why I posted the costs for rooms as he asked for. Working on getting more accurate numbers 
w00t Radio
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Yeah I guess I don't mind high costs but I think the actual costs for building a base are higher than acceptable limits of fun for most people who just want to play a game and not make a game become work.
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Agreed. The costs seem to far outweigh the benefits.
That's the main issue here, the high cost to build the base.
At these prices small SGs will NEVER get a base with an IoP that they have even a chance of defending.
It is going to take a long time for large SGs to make good bases, but they will do it. 4-6 months from now.
Deleted for ignorance
When I say small I am talking like less than 20.
Plus, I think a lot of people would disagree that small SGs aren't supposed to be able to raid and/or have items of power.
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Thats why I posted the costs for rooms as he asked for. Working on getting more accurate numbers
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Maybe this will help: Base Calculator and Layout
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Small SG's aren't meant to have a functional base or do any raids.
I have a 4 person SG. The smallest setting for a raid is 8 vs 8. It would be nice if they only allowed as many raiders are there are defenders but that won't happen.
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The setting may be for 8vs8 but thats the MAX that can be in the raid not min. During beta I did a one on one raid.
w00t Radio
Sorry, let me clarify. I disagree with that also, but it seems that is the intent. But if you say under/around 15-20 active is a small SG, then absolutely they should be able to get a small raidable base going in a few months.
I am sorry that my group is too small to take advantage of this, it's my own fault for not doing the research on bases before buying CoV. It does appear to me that bases and raids were not intended for <10 person supergroups.
EDIT: RE: DJJester, thanks! Again I didn't do the proper research. This assuages some of my concerns, but I'm still really disappointed that my friends and I cannot have a raidable base.
Ah OK I see where you are coming from, I would not be shocked to hear that it is the Devs intent that a small 10-20 person SG should not be able to do raids. The system clearly prevents them from being able to...
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Sorry, let me clarify. I disagree with that also, but it seems that is the intent. But if you say under/around 15-20 active is a small SG, then absolutely they should be able to get a small raidable base going in a few months.
I am sorry that my group is too small to take advantage of this, it's my own fault for not doing the research on bases before buying CoV. It does appear to me that bases and raids were not intended for <10 person supergroups.
EDIT: RE: DJJester, thanks! Again I didn't do the proper research. This assuages some of my concerns, but I'm still really disappointed that my friends and I cannot have a raidable base.
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Thats what we're here for Red Tape.. help new folks out and try and get the dev's to see problems when we do 
w00t Radio
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That's great that we can sell everything and modify the base as much as we want/need, but my 4 person RL supergroup is having a [censored] of a time just putting together the basics. So while I see his point of a mostly 1 way cash flow, i do think the initial bonus/prices need to be high enought to get energy, control, and 1 worktable. The bigger stuff can be more expensive, fine. But I want to take advantage of the new crafting system and refuse to disband my small SG.
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Get people to put in alts until you've hit the 15 person "worth it" cap.
In fact, let me know which server you're on - if I can, I'll create drones and let you recruit them!
Sadly, the bonus doesn't give a SG enough prestige to build the basics. An earlier post shows what you can build with the original SG bonus...You can't build much.
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Get people to put in alts until you've hit the 15 person "worth it" cap.
In fact, let me know which server you're on - if I can, I'll create drones and let you recruit them!
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Thanks for the suggestion, but I already did that before I started complaining about prices.
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EDIT: I know it's not griefing and it's a valid offensive tactic, but there will be groups that do this strictly for greifing purposes. Even legitimate raids may suffer from the "kick him when he's down" factor.
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This was my point exactly. The high prestige costs for these items is why griefing is even a part of the discussion. I agree that conceptually, it should be possible to permanently destroy base components....but the amount of time it takes to build up enough prestige to repurchase these components is just not conducive to encouraging people to take part in the entire IoP base raid feature if said components can be lost.
I like the idea that Prestige does not scale by level, it does really make every SG member feel like they can contribute something, whether they are level 5 or level 50. I think the solution is just to increase prestige awards across the board...even though you get the same result either way, I prefer increasing the rewards rather than just reducing prestige costs of items.
The #'s in the base construction costs are too big and unweildy anyway. I say leave the prestige earning the way it is and drop 2 zeroes off the cost of everything - at least.
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Unless there are memory conservation reasons not to have alot of active bases - I think that there is no reason at all to require heroes (especially Villians - who the heck is a villain paying rent to anyway? If you are paying it to Anachros - I certainly would hope that it would stop them from attacking you on the street! Your club dues are paid in full - why are they attacking a paying member!) to pay "rent" on bases.
I have to think about this from a comics background stand-point - as that is what this game is about. Does Batman really pay rent on the Bat Cave? I know, it's under his mansion and he's a millionaire - but, I can not be a millionare in CoH/CoV - no one really has a job or an inheritance. I know Superman doesn't pay rent on the fortress of Solitude.
Can you imagine the rent on OA? You know that they have Items of Power!
I could bring up some groups form the Malignant M, but why give them any ad exposure. They dis on CoH and I haven't bought comics from them for years because I think they are jerks in general.
Another function of this - is why give us more character slots if you are going to punish us for making more characters? This is causing a funneling effect. If you want to make the most out of the system the way that it is now, you have to have all your characters on one server - have them all be either heroes or all villians - and all your characters need to be in the same supergroup.
So much for variety.
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And, yes, by the time any one of my supergroups gets enough loot to buy enough rooms necessary just to use salvage, we'll have enough salvage to choke Godzilla.
Maybe there needs to be a store that will buy salvage in exchange for prestige? or refine salvage into workable parts for prestige, or both?
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Now to top this all off, supergroups aren't going to want alot of people going in and changing their bases around. So basically the people at the top of the pyramid will get to play with base stuff, and everyone else in the SG has to like it or lump it. So what's the modivation there?
I guess if the team has Items of Power and help PL the SG characters, than that might be one thing - so I guess this is about promoting PL'ing?
I'm confused.