SG mode to determine base rent?
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-08-22 09:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that is a reason for the 75 limit. However, in my opinion, it's not a good reason. That implies that SG size is being limited purely for PvP reasons; only a minority of the game's players care about PvP, and I refuse to believe that it is impossible to limit the size of SG battles without limiting the size of the SG itself. It may be easier and more convenient to do it that way, but that doesn't mean it must be so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Another perfectly valid reason for capping SG sizes is to crush Uberguilds. Remove any incentive for a guild to try to get so large that it dominates a server.
Also, by limiting SG sizes to 75 they can scale the base expansion speed. They can base Base prices/maintenance on what they believe a reasonable cost would be for 75 active characters. So there doesn't have to be wailing and gnashing of teeth about a supergroup not being big enough to get a good base even when it has 75 members. What you'd have is definitively enough.
[ QUOTE ]
So what about loner heroes? Heores that aren't "joiners" even though they may play with other people often?
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words, did the JLA pay for the Bat Cave?
[ QUOTE ]
My only comment regarding how bizarre this idea is...
Did anyone ever see the Freedom Phlanx running around in SG mode?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hypocrisy is the prerogative of leaders.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You CAN (in the settings) make your supergroup mode costume exactly the same as your normal costume. It does allow you to default to the color it already is.
[/ QUOTE ]
And if everyone DOES NOT HAVE the EXACT SAME "chest emblem"?
[ QUOTE ]
Like I said with my Superman example, his Red S becomes a Red JLA and him and the spanky green Batman with the JLA symbol on his chest go off to fight crime and pay for the Watch Tower
[/ QUOTE ]
Which SPECIFIC ISSUES of JLA has this occurred in. You've just been caught out in a flat lie and are now trying to weasel around by spreading more lies.
[ QUOTE ]
The emblem is the only thing that has to change. And you don't even have to use the SG's colors, if you had colors on that slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, fine, point out THE SPECIFIC ISSUES of JLA wherein Batman and Superman change their emblems.
the one where Superman stopped a lvl 1 mugger and still got XP and inf for it, that exploiting SOB.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The emblem is the only thing that has to change. And you don't even have to use the SG's colors, if you had colors on that slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, fine, point out THE SPECIFIC ISSUES of JLA wherein Batman and Superman change their emblems.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm looking for the SPECIFIC ISSUE that says CoH is based on the DC universe and all the rules that apply there.......
Sorry, but the DC universe != Marvel universe != CoH universe. Apples to oranges to pears.
Here's a crazy idea.
Get rid of SG mode as a costume color swap. Instead, You get an SG Costume Slot. SG creator still picks the emblem and emblem colors but they do not have to be used on the SG costume slot.
If you really think about it, even though the costume may not be uniform style, it still idetifies with the SG in a comic. You see Wolverine's costume, you think "Wolverine" and then you think "X-Men". In fact there are more examples of heroes changing OUT of SG costumes so they don't get recognized.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Just so you all know, you CAN be in sg mode, without changing your costume colors at all. Just go into the settings, make sure all the colors are set to your normal costume colors, and then enter sg mode. I think the chest emblem might change, but everythign else remains the same. Then, you can always be in sg mode.
[ QUOTE ]
Then, you can always be in sg mode.
[/ QUOTE ]
... thus defeating the point of having it as a 'mode' at all.
[ QUOTE ]
Another perfectly valid reason for capping SG sizes is to crush Uberguilds. Remove any incentive for a guild to try to get so large that it dominates a server.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps, but anyone with such a goal is going to manage it anyway just by creating endless divisions. Ask any veteran Victory player about the Goon Squad SGs - at one point they were so prevalent you couldn't spit without hitting a Goon member.
Our assumption, based on Recluse's comments, is: "We must accomplish unknown tasks while in SG mode to earn Prestige, which is the only currency used to buy, upgrade, and maintain bases."
In other words, "We must change our 'Chest Detail' to our SG's symbol and accomplish yet unknown tasks -- presumably with our other SG members -- to afford bases."
The problems are:
* Some of us consider our chest emblems to be keystone elements of our costumes. For instance, my rifleman looks cool with a bandolier; he looks silly with a big heart iron-on. My big tattooed Norseman is shirtless; suddenly his tattoos have changed and the straps holding on his shoulderpads have vanished?
* We don't know what "things" Recluse suggests we need to do; it could be something as clean as donating Influence to our SG's "bank account," which converts (based on our level) into Prestige which the SG Architect uses to buy the base. It might be as nasty as repeatedly completing a new special and lengthy trial while wearing your SG emblem.
* It might be a matter of earning Prestige enough to qualify for the right to build a base, and then the base is funded entirely by Influence.
We just don't know. They're not going to tell us for a while yet, either, because they're still in the development phase. Nothing is set in stone yet, and judging by our (including my) overwhelmingly disgusted reactions, they might even be re-evaluating their plans. To some degree, anyway; they seem to have a bad habit of patronizing us lately.
In an interview, Statesman has said that CoV raises the bar for gaming by introducing a base construction system as wonderful as CoH's costume design. I know some people who are going to buy CoV not to play as villains, but just so their heroes can have really cool clubhouses.
I'll tell you straight up that no matter how cool they can look, if superbases turn out to be just another huge PITA, a lot of business will be lost. It'll be even more disenfranchised subscribers than I5 has generated, I fear.
[ QUOTE ]
it could be something as clean as donating Influence to our SG's "bank account," which converts (based on our level) into Prestige which the SG Architect uses to buy the base.
[/ QUOTE ]
As was pointed out to me, that wouldn't work. The level 50s would just give all their Inf to level 10s to convert into Prestige at the highest rate of exchange.
Just about nobody I know uses SG Mode. Heck, even the SGs I know that dress alike (Evolution, Gods of Virtue) might actually be in non-SG Mode and just have matching outfits.
This idea, to use the SG Mode time to determine part of Prestige, is yet another idea thought up by the devs while they don't actually know how their game is played by the players.
I'm in 3 different SGs. The first one (Project Rebirth) never uses SG Mode because we're all from CoH Beta, when it was bugged. Plus, each character is an individual, not the Fantastic Four. Also, we tend to have altitis, so we're actually teamed most of the time, but in various alts. In order to have a base, we now have to put every single alt into the SG and stay in SG Mode and sacrifice our chest emblems.
The second one I joined with an alt (Guardian Force) rarely uses SG Mode, and I actually made a costume in those colors but with my emblem (heart) because that character's chest emblem is very important to him. The third SG I joined (Dauntless Reverie) is so big they split into 3 SGs forming a coalition. They also stress individualism, which means SG mode is only used for meetings, not missions.
So, I now have 3 SGs, none of which would qualify for bases or be able to upgrade/maintain them, if this SG Mode system is in place.
Live arcs: 517377 and 517381
Virtue: Quickshot. Swiftwind. Aliuneidis. Gizmodeus. Dasher. Fiver. Inuit Acer. Daniel Darke. Cerebral Flame. El Halcon.
Intel Core2Duo 2.4 Ghz 4 GB RAM**NVIDIA Geforce 9600 GT set to 1280 x 1024**Windows Vista 32 bit
But, you could also cap the amount of Prestige per person, before lvl 50. Let's say it takes X number of bosses worth of XP to level, which also results in Y amount of Inf. Cap the amount of Inf one can donate per level at 2Y. This assumes the most about of Inf you can earn is related to you being in perma debt. That's still alot of Inf. and Prestige.
Either way, coming up with an elaborate system ourselves is a waste of time. They won't use our idea. Wait till they give us the full picture, and then whine.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it could be something as clean as donating Influence to our SG's "bank account," which converts (based on our level) into Prestige which the SG Architect uses to buy the base.
[/ QUOTE ]
As was pointed out to me, that wouldn't work. The level 50s would just give all their Inf to level 10s to convert into Prestige at the highest rate of exchange.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, agreed. It was merely an example, not a suggestion nor even a theory.
[ QUOTE ]
If there was a mention somewhere of prestige, we could easily have use SG mode with our own colours AND emblem, but the fact is there was no mention of it before yesterday, and there will be datamining.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I had to hazard a guess, it probably won't be so much "datamining" as "Prestige is already being awarded, we just turned off the code that tells you about it".
At least, that's how I would do it.
@Mindshadow
The Justice League stare on as the repo men dismantle their spacestation.
Superman: What are you doing!?!
Repo Man: Taking this stuff back.
Superman: But why? We've saved this world and the galaxy a hundred times!
Repo Man: President says that if you don't wear your supergroup costumes you don't keep it
Superman: What? But the Justice League doesn't have a themed uniform!
Repo Man: Bill! Watch what you're doing with that!!
Green Lantern: I told you we should have worn green.
Superman: Hmm...could I have a green cape?
Green Lantern: Erm...
Batman: I'm not wearing green.
Superman: But we'll lose the Watch Tower!
Batman: Heh, I have the Bat Cave.
*beep*
Alfred: Sir, I've almost finished dismantling the Bat Cave.
Batman: What!?!?
Alfred: I tried to warn you sir, but Robin still insists on not wearing that Bat-Boy uniform you made for him...
(I saw the Marvel-esque one earlier in the thread and thought the DCers could do with something 
)
I sincerely hope that the Devs read these postings and determine that deciding prestige based on time in SG mode is not the way to go...I'm not going to rehash all the excellent points made in this thread, instead I am sending out a plea to the devs...
PLEASE read this thread and rethink this apparent Prestige idea. It is not a good idea.
I sincerely hope that the Devs read these postings and determine that deciding prestige based on time in SG mode in it's current form is not the way to go
Make some changes to SG mode, and it would be fine, IMHO.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you're in SG mode doesn't mean you automatically get Prestige. You still have to do things.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is interesting to me, that all the developers keep pushing this to conform to their vision of how the game should be played. First we weren't teaming enough for them, so they almost enforce teaming, to where solo gets you less xp, and some builds are almost inneffective without support (I am thinking Mind controllers and FF defenders mostly)
Now, that is not enough, and in CoV, we have to 1) be in an active SG, 2) be in costume, and 3) be doing things that the devs think is necessary for a base.
Forgive me, but Superman's Fortress of Solitude was not built from the JLA, Batman's batcave did not come from teaming with Robin.
The devs are gearing this game, in this aspect at least, to those who like to team with huge supergroups, and have that be a large investement of their time online. I have a family, I cannot do that consistently, I play with friends or solo when I can.
Do I have to join a SG I don't like, just to have a base? Do I have to try and invest x number of hours, just so I won't be kicked, or do I create a SG, and lead in absentia, only collecting what my members put in?
It just seems like those of us who have managed to play the game at odd hours, (like after midnight), or involve ourselves in what our char is doing, not necessarily what a SG is doing, should not be completely left in the cold.
Yes a big SG who is active should have a huge base. Yes, it should reflect the time they spent. Yes, tohse of us who don't have a big SG should have smaller bases, but influence covers that well. a 75-person SG has hundreds of millions of influence, posiibly billions; a small team only has ~100 million.
That is how to balance it. That allows more people to enjoy the aspect of the game that their time investment (=influence) shows.
[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope that the Devs read these postings and determine that deciding prestige based on time in SG mode in it's current form is not the way to go
Make some changes to SG mode, and it would be fine, IMHO.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would wonder how this could be determined not to be the way to go, if no numbers or anything like that has been published? How do you know that 'rent' may consist of nothing more then 1 hour a month worth of prestige? Simple fact is, you don't know how much is required, how much you've already accumulated, or how much 'rent' will be. No one does, or those that do can't say. Thus it seems rather silly to be declaring something as not workable, when none of the major details have yet to be published.
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you're in SG mode doesn't mean you automatically get Prestige. You still have to do things.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whatever happened to influence being what paid the rent on SG bases??? When did that change?
You know, this whole idea of "prestige" would be all well and good - if the limits on SG membership weren't so low.
Take my SG. We have 250 characters owned and played by all the players who have a main character in the SG. We all pretty much consider all of our characters to be members of the SG, thanks to the advent of Global Chat.
But - we have to divide our characters up into several smaller SG's so they'll all fit, thanks to that ridiculous 75 character membership limit. We have one SG for our retired L50s. One for our current "most played" characters, our mains. Another for our various alts. And probably one or two more I'm forgetting.
Some suggestions to make this work better, and be more fair to good, active SG's:
-Bump the limit on SG membership up to about 500 or so
-Make membership in the SG by *PLAYER*, not character, and bump the limit up to about 100 or so.
-Allow coalitions among related SGs - maybe a new coalition mode of some kind - such that all members of all SG's in the coalition contribute to the prestige number. I understand how this could be abused, so perhaps it's not such a great idea. Maybe limit the coalitions to SG's that were all registered to the same player. Or limit the number of SG's to 5 or so.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SG need more room. LOTS more room. Yes, the majority of SGs may be smaller, but some of the most loyal groups in this game are simply too big to fit in one SG. Our alts should all be contributing to the same base, not 4 different bases because of the arbitrarily low limit of 75 per SG. Never have I seen a good technical (or any other) reason why 75 must be the limit. Raise the limit, preferably by a factor of at least 5, or even abolish it altogether. This is major obstacle to Prestige being a workable system.
[/ QUOTE ]
On the subject of which: perhaps change the limit to 75 accounts. This means that an absolute maximum of 75 characters from the SG can be active at once, but also means that alts are a non-issue in terms of space used.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey! You rediscovered my idea! Of course, someone might have had it first!
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Please point out how this confirms that you need prestige for building a base. All it says is that prestige and SG-mode is related.
[/ QUOTE ]
It confirms it because Recluse was correcting a misapprehension - you don't get Prestige for doing nothing. If the report from GenCon of him saying that Prestige would be used for building bases had been wrong, he would have corrected that too.