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So while playing buffbot and getting PL'd you didn't manage to die?
Well done.
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Not at all what I said.
At at least -15 to the mission level, I got no experience at all, so there goes that theory.
I also said I did die, so you missed the point entirely. My point was many of my teammates died without me but not with me (both heals and buffs). I don't know about you, but I call that adding something of value to a high level team (levels capped). Something I think very few other ATs can say they provide in the lower 30s...
So then you were playing buffbot for no reason and managed to die? uhhh... Well done?
And that's got to be the worst example of why Defenders are fine I've ever heard in all the time I've been reading these boards. What it's telling you is that if you want to be a slave to your group and follow them around like a puppy while they accomplish things, you can do that as a Defender... so long as you're an Empath or ForceFielder. A Kinetics, Rad, Dark or Storm in the same situation would've been worthless. What a great premise for an AT.
edit: Oh and by the way... a /Emp Controller could've done exactly the same thing.
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So then you were playing buffbot for no reason and managed to die? uhhh... Well done?
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Sounds like he was doing what all Empaths do. Buff and heal. He even said he was healing and buffing. Maybe you call that a buffbot but that sound exactly like what Empaths do.
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And that's got to be the worst example of why Defenders are fine I've ever heard in all the time I've been reading these boards. What it's telling you is that if you want to be a slave to your group and follow them around like a puppy while they accomplish things, you can do that as a Defender... so long as you're an Empath or ForceFielder. A Kinetics, Rad, Dark or Storm in the same situation would've been worthless. What a great premise for an AT.
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No, it sounds like an explanation of, despite level difference, buffs are equally effective. Furthermore modest heals can still be the difference between life and death. Not bad for being 15 levels below everyone else.
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edit: Oh and by the way... a /Emp Controller could've done exactly the same thing.
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True, I have a lvl 50 mind/emp and it sounds like he's playing Empathy exactly how they are meant to be played, and they are still effective even many levels below everyone else. But a Defender will still provide a higher value for buffs and heals than Controllers.
Some people may complain that debuff sets don't do as well as Empathy or Force Fields in that regard, but they have their own set of strengths. 
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Sounds like he was doing what all Empaths do. Buff and heal. He even said he was healing and buffing. Maybe you call that a buffbot but that sound exactly like what Empaths do.
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He wasn't doing anything other than buffing and healing. If that's not being a buffbot... what is?
A couple examples of emps vs. non-emp defenders, first was the respec, 8 man team, with 2 emps, 1 dark( me), 1 bubbler, 2 tanks( 1 was fire), 1 ice blaster, & 1 mind controller. As you can see not a team with a lot of 'dmg dealers', even better 1 emp was 33, 1 tank was 32, the bubbler and controller was 24, the rest of us were in the 29-30 range, Even better. The 33 emp sked the 2nd emp which I thought was a bit weird, considering as far as i can tell both were 'pure healers'. We got the through the door mish at a very slow pace, as well as making our way to the reacter. A pace that somewhat concerned me, I suggested that the lead emp sk the bubbler instead since pure healers suffer less being unsked than the rest of us, and I knew dispersion bubble should be more effective with him higher, plus I know he has slotted his attacks. Needless to say, our tempo picked up going through the waves. The point is, had we left the 2nd emp sked to the 1st one, we would have died, eventually we would have been overwelmed. The pure healers couldn't contribute to dmg. the bubbler was to low until he was sked to do amy dmg, and the mind controller well, it was difficult for him to manage control even sked much less dmg against what we were facing. That left 2 tanks, 1 ice blaster, & 1 dark rad defender to deal dmg against to what was for most of us +4's or +5. My point is that both emp's would've provided much more support had they at least a few of their attacks, b/c in this situation and others, their healing wou;d've not been able to keep up. Don't get me wrong they filled their role fine, but there are other ways to support your team outside of healing.
2nd example, while I was doing the respec, my wife was teamed up with someone from our SG on a pickup team. As i was listoning on TS Iheard our SG mate complain that the defender on the team wasn't doing her job( no I should add my SG is primarily scrappers with a few other AT's), so my wife joined with her emp. Being curious I asked my wife to look up what kind of defender the 'bad healer' was, as I expected it was a Rad not an Emp, and then she understood why the defender was a 'bad healer'( my main is a Rad Dark), now I have no idea how the defender was doing in the debuffing dept since I was too busy to watch. But I was saddened by the fact that both my wife( her main is an emp) and my sg mate( his main is a scrapper) both assumed since they saw a blue shield. they assumed they had an emp, and they both have 50's. I also know its easy for non-debuffers not to realize the impact of debuffage until its either its gone. their facing a debuffer in PVP, or their facing an AV( they tend to think that the mobs aren't as tough as they thought)
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He wasn't doing anything other than buffing and healing. If that's not being a buffbot... what is?
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That's called being an Empath (or FF Defender). If you don't like the way they work, avoid grouping with them.
I'm sure, speaking as someone whose played an Empath, they'll be thrilled not to be grouping with someone with your attitude as to their role in groups.
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He wasn't doing anything other than buffing and healing. If that's not being a buffbot... what is?
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That's called being an Empath (or FF Defender). If you don't like the way they work, avoid grouping with them.
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Nothing about either prevents them from doing more is the point.
Under construction
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That's called being an Empath (or FF Defender). If you don't like the way they work, avoid grouping with them.
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I'm sure, speaking as someone whose played an Empath, they'll be thrilled not to be grouping with someone with your attitude as to their role in groups.
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Sorry if I expect my Empaths to be more than an Inspiration.
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He wasn't doing anything other than buffing and healing. If that's not being a buffbot... what is?
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That's called being an Empath (or FF Defender). If you don't like the way they work, avoid grouping with them.
I'm sure, speaking as someone whose played an Empath, they'll be thrilled not to be grouping with someone with your attitude as to their role in groups.
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There's nothing that stops a defender of any powerset from blasting or otherwise adding value. Had you been SK'd up to a decent level you would have been a lot more useful. I must agree, your anecdote makes out like you think that defenders should be nothing but healbots and buffbots. Even a forcefielder (especially forcefielders!) can contribute with blasts and power pools, and that's assuming they have none of their more specialized primary powers.
What you describe is not "being an empath (or FF defender)". It's being lazy.
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Even a forcefielder (especially forcefielders!) can contribute with blasts and power pools, and that's assuming they have none of their more specialized primary powers.
What you describe is not "being an empath (or FF defender)". It's being lazy.
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Never mind the fact that Force Fielders actually have a straight-out direct damage attack in their Primary. That alone -no matter whether you like or dislike it- would lead any reasonable person to presume that they were not meant to just stand around and update their bubbles every few minutes, End allowing of course.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Never mind the fact that Force Fielders actually have a straight-out direct damage attack in their Primary. That alone -no matter whether you like or dislike it- would lead any reasonable person to presume that they were not meant to just stand around and update their bubbles every few minutes, End allowing of course.
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Um....No. No they do not. If you are suffering under the misconception that any FF power has any use whatsoever as direct damage you are *sadly* mistaken. Force Bolt does half the damage of Brawl for twice the recharge. That's one quarter Brawl DPS... Repulsion Bomb does even less than that. That is not direct damage in any meaningful sense.
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Never mind the fact that Force Fielders actually have a straight-out direct damage attack in their Primary. That alone -no matter whether you like or dislike it- would lead any reasonable person to presume that they were not meant to just stand around and update their bubbles every few minutes, End allowing of course.
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Wow, you've never played a forcefielder have you
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
At first I didn't really like my EMP/RAD build because as an empath, I felt I wasn't contributing enough to a team (having only fort and cm as buffs).
Later levels however, I really really enjoyed my build (especially now at lvl 41). I can be a healer and a blaster as well, if necessary. And since at higher levels, the need for empaths are minimal, I can use RAD to blast thru enemies. And need I mention that I have Atomic Blast?!? Its just as strong as other nuke powers like Inferno and Nova.
Though some problems I have with being an empath are:
Clear Mind: Please make the animation as short as Heal Other.
Regeneration Aura: make it more 'useful' i guess. i kinda dont see the point of having this, esp at later levels.
Adrenalin Boost: umm, so it only gives one person unlimited endurance?... why not just go all out since its the last empath power... give the player invincibility (like the one scrappers have) as well as unlimited end with fort and cm to boost. After all, we waited all these levels for that.
But yeah, we're the archetype that caters toward helping out other heroes... we dont bother ourselves with dealing the most damage or controlling the most mobs... all we want is to make sure our heroes get the job done better and faster. Hopefully other heroes are grateful of the things that we can give to them.
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The other myth is that controllers have no damage until pets. Bull, it's just damage at the cost of control but most controllers want to stay spoiled. They don't want to go into a power pool or slot some single-target holds to do the damage themselves, they want complete lockdown, full slotting on Damage/Defense buffs, and only 4-6 slots set aside in the entire primary(pets specifically) for actual damage. ...damage which in some zookeeperish cases, outdamages defenders by whole integers, not just percents making it Uber indeed. ...What else do you call FREE DAMAGE? Pets have no endurance Bars, keep that in mind because the biggest second factor to any Defense of Damage comparisons are directly factored upon by Endurance. If it wasn't, Stamina would only be taken in this game for character concept
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This is a bit much in the generalizations isn't it?
Why should a controller have to dip into a power pool to do damage? I refuse to on any character for character concept unless it really fits in. Wasn't it States himself who said no AT should be forced to rely on a pp?
But yes, my gravity controller does massive damage with or without sings. (I dot em all to death oh the uberness)
Just a note, my pets most certainly do have an endurance bar and I've even seem it run out when a mob got stuck on them and the repel was ineffective or there was something blocking the mob being tossed away.
Also from my experience my defenders can outmatch my grav controller in damage even with pets factored in.
I do believe defenders need looking at in some sets. Mainly Storm - more team friendly, empathy well I won't go there.
I still think it would be nice to add more extra effects (debuffs/slows etc.) to defenders (only) primary or secondary than there is now.
Cheers,
FD
Actually, I'm not certain an empath controller could've done the same thing at the same level difference, since their heals are capped lower and I don't know about their regen rates on things like AB and Regen Aura. Certainly, a level 50 Empath controller could potentially do everything a level 50 Emp Defender could do, but that's more because of capped heals and a fairly low max health comparatively. Besides, a -15/-16 Emp controller won't even have Adren Boost or maybe even Regen Aura....
As for a Defender's role as a "buff bot," here's what it states in the manual:
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The Defender's powers focus on healing allies, increasing their buffing bilities and decreasing foes' debuffing abilities. The Defender has little offensive or defensive punch of his own, but can radically increase the effectiveness of even the smallest team up, and he and the blaster have the only ranged attacks.
The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though soloing is possible. Difficult, but possible. However, the tremendous usefulness of Defenders' powers should guarantee that they will always be able to find a team up to adventure with.
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It seems I was using my Defender exactly as intended.... I didn't do much of the Blaster type stuff, doing my own damage which of course is set at 2/3 Blaster damage, but the Defenders are clearly meant to be group oriented and if I'm constantly doing stuff, anyway, I see no reason that has to include fighting on my own.
Again, I slotted almost everything in my primary, whereas in my secondary, I have maybe two attacks fully slotted. This makes sense, because you shouldn't be taking more slots from your secondary than your primary (which is called your primary for a reason) and then complaining because your primary isn't performing at an effective level. I'm sure there are people who've slotted mostly primaries that would like their primaries effectiveness increased, and I understand that. Heck, I'd like Fortitude to be able to take damage enhancements, but from my experience Empathy really doesn't need that.
The real issue is for the last sentence quoted from the manual, finding a team, which again is about perception more so than how effective Defenders can be in groups. By the high levels a lot of players mostly group with their SGs, with people on hteir friends list (who become more and more sparse because people drop out and either go elsewhere or start new characters the longer you wait around), or think they can solo at least some things, because every AT was designed to have the ability to solo, at least on Heroic. The problem is Defenders are supposed to be the most group oriented AT, and without a group, a Defender designed to be true to the AT will find that he is left with a character less useful than other ATs.
The response CAN NOT be to bring other ATs down to the solo level of Defenders. Nor can it be to bring Defenders solo levels up to the other ATs. Because in either case, there'd be no point in playing anything other than a Defender (except possibly a Controller, just to hold AVs).
I am not saying Defenders are too weak or too strong or is the perfect paradigm for all ATs, I'm sayng the Defender that I've played can do the job it was intended to do. It's filling a needed role in groups. IF groups forming don't see that, as far as I'm concerned, it's merely their perception.
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Clear Mind: Please make the animation as short as Heal Other.
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That's a good point. But my complaint has always been that Sleep, which lasts longer than most other mezzes, is broken by any heal. All the other mezzes seem to break before the Empath can figure out holds/disorients are going on. There are only two ways Clear Mind is really needed. First pre-emptively, although I sometimes use it this way, it's really annoying to constantly keep up while performing all your other empath duties. Second is to un-disorient an awakened/bounced back teammate. But as for using it to clear someone's mind in general, like the name implies, it doesn't really happen, since most people aren't clear about whether they're held or slept.
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Regeneration Aura: make it more 'useful' i guess. i kinda dont see the point of having this, esp at later levels.
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I think this is a perception thing... plus with I4, Empaths sorta got nerfed along with Regen Scrappers, as far as my understanding. Isn't there a regen cap, now? Anyway, on most characters, you're not gonna hit it. Anywy, if there is something like a team split, and one group is weaker than the other, but people in both groups need healing, regen aura will keep the eaker team alive while you to run bacak and forth, also allowing you to accidentally agro a mob or two without getting killed en route from one part of your team to the other.
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Adrenalin Boost: umm, so it only gives one person unlimited endurance?... why not just go all out since its the last empath power... give the player invincibility (like the one scrappers have) as well as unlimited end with fort and cm to boost. After all, we waited all these levels for that.
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Actually, it's more than unlimitted endurance. It's also +regen, and +recharge. Think of it like a heavily slotted Accelerated Metabolism on one character, without the mez protect. Put Adren Boost, Recovery Aura, and Regeneration Aura on any character, even a Blaster, and you've got your own mini Regen Scrapper on your team.
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Never mind the fact that Force Fielders actually have a straight-out direct damage attack in their Primary. That alone -no matter whether you like or dislike it- would lead any reasonable person to presume that they were not meant to just stand around and update their bubbles every few minutes, End allowing of course.
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Um....No. No they do not. If you are suffering under the misconception that any FF power has any use whatsoever as direct damage you are *sadly* mistaken. Force Bolt does half the damage of Brawl for twice the recharge. That's one quarter Brawl DPS... Repulsion Bomb does even less than that. That is not direct damage in any meaningful sense.
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I imagine he's basing this belief off the fact that [Fake] Nemesis[?] [Rex] and Diabolique often act like force field blasters. All use Force Bolt as a hefty damage-dealer, and Diabolique uses Repulsion Bomb as AoE damage. Though she can target enemies, obviously.
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This makes sense, because you shouldn't be taking more slots from your secondary than your primary (which is called your primary for a reason) and then complaining because your primary isn't performing at an effective level.
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Another person that's never played a Force Field defender.
Adreniline boost has a rchg boost of something like 1.4-2.
It is at least twice as strong as hasten(.7).
So its just a weee bit better than a heavily slotted AM
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Another person that's never played a Force Field defender.
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Guilty as charged (though technically I have a level 4). Now that you mentioned it, I checked out FF's powers and they mostly seem to be more controller like than Defender, with the exception of a few buffs.... Not sure what's up with that, especially since they probably don't operate on the level of Controllers.... No wonder most of the Defender type FFs train stuff like Medicine.... Yeah, it looks like Force Field could be reworked a little to fit in more buff/debuff/heals, maybe get rid of Force Bolt, even. But I say this, again, not having really played a FF character.
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The Defender's powers focus on healing allies, increasing their buffing bilities and decreasing foes' debuffing abilities. The Defender has little offensive or defensive punch of his own, but can radically increase the effectiveness of even the smallest team up, and he and the blaster have the only ranged attacks.
The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though soloing is possible. Difficult, but possible. However, the tremendous usefulness of Defenders' powers should guarantee that they will always be able to find a team up to adventure with.
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If you want to work from the manual... then that last part means Defenders are broken. In the current state of the game your powers are not always useful.
Heh, imagine telling a FF Defender that they were always be tremendously useful. What with all the auto-hits, psi, and knockback immune mobs floating around.
By the definition in the manual, Defenders are broken.
The Manual says a lot of things too. Like that Controllers need to be extremely cautious when they're solo, and that Tankers are slow soloers (A decently slotted Tanker can CRUSH the offensive punch of a Defender). It's all BS and wasn't even accurate when the game came out.
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The response CAN NOT be to bring other ATs down to the solo level of Defenders. Nor can it be to bring Defenders solo levels up to the other ATs. Because in either case, there'd be no point in playing anything other than a Defender (except possibly a Controller, just to hold AVs).
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I really doubt it's going to swing that heavily. As is... there's no reason to play a Defender other than Dark. Everything you wanted to do you could do as a Controller. Everything. If you pick the right primary, you'll even do more damage. Even Mind Controllers can AE. Plus, when you're solo half your powers won't become useless. It's Win-Win.
If you gave Defenders the ability to buff themselves, it'd change very little about the game. Only three primaries in one AT would be affected. Being able to self Fort/CM, SB/ID, and bubble would actually make you MORE useful to a team because they could stop worrying about you dying or being mezzed all the time. You'd get three uber defense Blasters with lame damage. Hell, with perma-PowerBoost Blasters can get those kind of defenses already and it sure didn't make them overpowered.
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If you gave Defenders the ability to buff themselves, it'd change very little about the game. Only three primaries in one AT would be affected. Being able to self Fort/CM, SB/ID, and bubble would actually make you MORE useful to a team because they could stop worrying about you dying or being mezzed all the time. You'd get three uber defense Blasters with lame damage. Hell, with perma-PowerBoost Blasters can get those kind of defenses already and it sure didn't make them overpowered.
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Remember Rad and Dark already benefit from their buffs/debuffs. AM, EF, RI, heal, EMP, LR, and for Dark has tar patch, twilight grasp, pets, etc. The biggest draw for these powersets is that the possessor of the power can directly benefit from the usage of these powers.
Once a controller gets pets they can take advantage of their buffs by proxy(i.e. putting them on their pets).
The only buffs that are not self-castable are clear mind, fort, heal other, adren boost, deflection/insulation shields, speed boost, increase density, and O2 boost(I may have missed some apologies if I did).
If you think that no one will care because controllers can do it all better think again. Fulcrum shifted nuke/nova/blackstar is a sight to behold.
Changing knockback to knockdown would also solve most of stormies problems with them being overshadowed by controllers.
Giving defenders these abilities over controllers would dramatically boost the sets that need help while not changing the sets that don't and without downing or altering controllers.
Will blasters suddenly forego their ability to do massive amounts of damage in order to babysit a team and give themselves speed boost? I really doubt it. People play defenders because that is the personality with which they generally gravitate towards.
Defenders are protective, patient, thoughtful, always strategizing like controllers but never sacrificing their ability to fight in order to do so. Changing some buffs won't make any AT absolete, it just gives those powersets that need them some simple help in the right direction as well as better self sufficiency(which EVERY other AT has post lvl 32).
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If you think that no one will care because controllers can do it all better think again. Fulcrum shifted nuke/nova/blackstar is a sight to behold.
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It's really not that impressive. It just SEEMS impressive because you're used to your attacks sucking all the time.
It takes me 4 seconds to animate Thunderous Blast. In that time a Fire Blaster can FireBall/FireBreath. I'll get ~37 brawls (55.556 * 0.666 = Blaster Damage) if all three ticks hit, and he'll get 29.5 brawls. That's 80% of my damage and he can do it every 10 seconds. If I get any less than 3 ticks we're doing the same damage.
Is it a "sight to behold" whenever a Fire Blaster runs into a group and decimates it? No. It's expected. The only reason it seems cool when a Defender does it is because the rest of the time your damage is a bit sad.
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If you think that no one will care because controllers can do it all better think again. Fulcrum shifted nuke/nova/blackstar is a sight to behold.
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It's really not that impressive. It just SEEMS impressive because you're used to your attacks sucking all the time.
It takes me 4 seconds to animate Thunderous Blast. In that time a Fire Blaster can FireBall/FireBreath. I'll get ~37 brawls (55.556 * 0.666 = Blaster Damage) if all three ticks hit, and he'll get 29.5 brawls. That's 80% of my damage and he can do it every 10 seconds. If I get any less than 3 ticks we're doing the same damage.
Is it a "sight to behold" whenever a Fire Blaster runs into a group and decimates it? No. It's expected. The only reason it seems cool when a Defender does it is because the rest of the time your damage is a bit sad.
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But this is where you see the biggest difference in defender primaries, some primaries like dark or rad, can do this with a fair amount of safety( sacirficing 33% dmg for more safety) and others like empathy that are taking almost as much a risk as blasters with much less reward( 33% less dmg). if that fireblaster didn't get everything by the time he finishes doing that fireball-firebreath combo, he's dead, by allowing the emp to fort him/herself it would justify them having 33% blaster dmg.
Speaking as a Dark/Dark defender, I have to say this is the only MMO I've played where my character has been buffed over time rather than nerfed. I'm very happy with my defender. My *only* request would be to put a little more red into the power effects (or some other *color*) so my pickup-group teammates would be able to see what I'm doing for them.