No an unstoppable duo is a DA scrapper or fire tanker + a bubbler.
I know you think that psi is the only hole that FFs have, but it's not. Untyped damage(yes I'm talking about you Hamidon), auto-hit damage (those delightful caltrops from knives of artemis), super buffed accuracy(av's), sleeps(from tons of DE), and any psi(carnies/rikti whoop up on you).
So actually SR scrappers have a leg up because their defense, while less, is against ranged or melee NOT the type of damage being thrown at you.
You've made the same mistake the devs made in that thinking because FF sounds great on paper and has only one damage type that it can't protect against, that everything is great. Sorry man, play a FFer, then you will understand.
Have...done...not worried.
I have to agree with JM...FF in theory and FF in practice are two completely different things. Sure, they do really crank up a teams defense, but even fully maxed out with HOs, Bionexus still drops like a rock in many many situations (and with the impending HO nerf, things won't get better).
Bio
I must have been playing differently, because even as an active offensive force I really don't die too often.
I've noticed most FF/EN defenders seem to have the best luck. My guess is that the knockback from EN helps stall opponents from attacking more frequently. Though psi and knockback resistant mobs/AVs still ridiculously overpower us.
FF/Dark can still throw out TT, Elec has short circuit, but rad/psi are left with little crowd control abilities in either their primary or secondary. Just a guess, I don't care enough to test it out firsthand. 
Well perhaps I should be more specific. Psi attacks, Sleep attacks, Endurance drain attacks, and Toxic attacks, both inside and outside the arena, are death for me. For some reason I seem to be encountering those types a lot more recently (especially in the arena, of course), which has made it surprisingly difficult to stay alive.
Out of those I would be most happy if they gave me sleep resistance, since that is especially annoying in the arena
Bio
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For darks, in addition to tar patch 8 times over(doing 340% total dmg, not base dmg)
Shadowfall x8, its defense and resist stack togother
not to mention anywhere between 8 & 24 Dark Servants running about
Darkest Night, totally gimping mobs accuracy and dmg output to miniscule numbers
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You forget the 8 X Darkest Night (ie. 10% damage (the minimum) and a *whopping* 640% accuracy debuff.)
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A single Dark Defender is already capable of flooring accuracy and damage on +4 mobs. Because of the purple patch it's not really worth fighting above that level. A second Dark Defender adds a bit... but by the 4th or 5th, you're just getting a ghetto Blaster with holds.
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Stacking DN + Tar Patch, with tactics to boost everyone's accuracy, makes it more than feasible for a team of 8 dark defenders to take on higher than +4.
Very similar mechanics work for Radiation defenders and controllers.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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No an unstoppable duo is a DA scrapper or fire tanker + a bubbler.
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Bubblers can do nothing about a DA's end. Empathy's much better (+Def, +Recharge, +Damage, +Accuracy, +Recovery, +Regen)
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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+4 mobs? Since when? You might be able to affect them, but I seriously doubt "floor" their accuracy/damage by yourself at +4.
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The math has been done many times. You can get something like 300% -ToHit on your own between your powers and Fluffies. I'm not making it up. And like I said, by the 3rd or 4th Dark you're adding almost nothing. Two DNs is -75% damage, and all the mobs will be at 5% ToHit. Other than the Tar Patches, there's not a lot to add to that...
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+4 mobs? Since when? You might be able to affect them, but I seriously doubt "floor" their accuracy/damage by yourself at +4.
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The math has been done many times. You can get something like 300% -ToHit on your own between your powers and Fluffies. I'm not making it up. And like I said, by the 3rd or 4th Dark you're adding almost nothing. Two DNs is -75% damage, and all the mobs will be at 5% ToHit. Other than the Tar Patches, there's not a lot to add to that...
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The tar patches by themselves are really enough, though.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
You can't do a 300% to-hit debuff vs +4 enemies at any one point in time. You can do a heckuva lot, but not that much. That number is dependent on having 3 fluffies having their darkest night on the same enemies at the same time while they're all standing with their PBAoE debuff in the middle of the enemies while they spam twilight grasp. You must have your darkest night up while spamming twilight grasp and fearsome stare and basically doing nothing but that. The total for that comes out to about 500% vs even-lvl enemies if you're slotted well. Realistically, you won't get anywhere near that in most fights, that happening would be equivalent to the planets being perfectly aligned. There's just too much chaos working against you. I estimate that I hover at around a 200% accuracy debuff for most fights, and at around 350% in AV fights.
The power effectiveness modifier for +4s is 48%, lowering that 300% (although a more realistic number is 175%) to 144% (96% more realistically) Minions have a base 68% chance to hit, LTs an 85% chance and bosses a 102% chance.
So final to-hit is:
Enemy/rediculous/realistic
Minion: 5%/5%
LT: 5%/5%
Boss: 5%/6%
Very close, the defense debuff from shadowfall puts you over the top on the boss accuracy. You then take a very sharp turn at +5s. That 300% debuff turns into a 90% debuff (200% to 60) and enemy accuracy rises:
Minion:5%/12%
LT: 5%/31%
Boss: 22%/62%
The curve continues to get increasingly vicious as you go on and it makes you glad that we have so many debuffs. The problem occurs when lower-lvl players hit this vicious curve sooner, so they'll be good for defending vs +2s but worthless against +3s. Adding more debuffs increases the relative level that the curve will happen at, but will make it all the more sudden. Of course the second you get mezzed, things go straight down the tubes no matter what level you are and what level enemy you're fighting.
On a positive note: Darkest Night's damage debuff is increased by Tar Patch's resistance debuff. 1 tar patch + 1 darkest night = 50% damage debuff.
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The tar patches by themselves are really enough, though.
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Kind of makes the whole "omg defender synergy!" thing a bit suspect though.
This is the same thing as the Range=Defense crap the Blasters deal with. Range isn't a Blaster's Strength... Melee is their weakness.
Grouping isn't really a Defender's strength... soloing is their weakness.
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The fact that there is so little bickering around FF needing a buff should speak volumes.
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I couldn't agree more.
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck it probably *is* a duck.
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Chiming in after this great quote... that yes I totaly agree here. Any time now that our SG has someone with an AV of pretty much any sort, my friends are wondering why I choose to take in my level 36 Dark/Elec rather then just hoping in with my level 50 FF/Dark. Heck even when I feel like working something other then the Dark fender I still don't go in with the Force fielder... I'll take my 16 Claws/Regen, or my 32 Illusion/Storm... Or hell even my level 14 Grav/Rad as long as somebody can t-port my tookus to portal corp.
Hmmm... Anyone here guess why I prefere to take ANY of these over the 50 FF/Dark (who even has 22 hami-o's... they didn't help 
) anyone at all?...
Take care all,
Rogue Demonhunter
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I've heard this mentioned a few times. Are there really that many Defenders without slotted Secondaries out there? Seriously, the thought would never occur to me. Despite the few 'True/Pure Healer/Emp' people I see on the boards and on Broadcast, and admittedly despite some people that seem to think that every Defender should not only bring their Primary Buffs/DeBuffs but also the Teleport, Stealth and Leadership Pools to the table I just never saw the point of not having any proper offence.
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depends on your play style i guess. i have 3 attacks all one slotted at lvl 42 , dark blast , gloom and brawl . but i have all leader powers and except vengence which i just got they are 6 slotted. add Both RA's and Adren boost plus stamina all 6 slotted as well plus fort and clear mind slotted hvy but not 6 , and i really never had spare slots to add to my secondary power set.
i never really have trouble finding teams except when i play at off hrs.
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A defender without slotted blasts is handicapped.
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i beg to disagree. having combat powers can be quite fatal for a defender , even more so now with the recent changes that make healing cause aggro.
my SG is Fire/Fire tank hvy and we often take missions that are 5+ lvls higher set to max diffuculty. normal group is 3-4 tankers plus me. and even without attacking i can often draw aggro off 3-4 burn tanks with powes slotted for added taunt. if i were to attack and actually hurt something it would be quite fatal.
i am quite surprised that most people seem to think a defender without slotted attacks is gimped and i think thats a major part of the issue. since by slotting attack powers you are splitting your slots and drawing away from a defenders main job which ironicly is to defend. if you got spare power slots and enhancement slots after taking all your defense powers cool go for it. but choose to take even more defense powers IE leadership and TP friend.
in a nut shell anyone who thinks a defender without slotted secondarys is gimped should play a few mish's with me. you will change your mind
I said:
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Force Fields have a lot of holes- all the Super Reflexes ones and all the Invincibility ones. . .
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Jesterman replied:
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I know you think that psi is the only hole that FFs have, but it's not.
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Sigh.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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The tar patches by themselves are really enough, though.
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Kind of makes the whole "omg defender synergy!" thing a bit suspect though.
This is the same thing as the Range=Defense crap the Blasters deal with. Range isn't a Blaster's Strength... Melee is their weakness.
Grouping isn't really a Defender's strength... soloing is their weakness.
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So you're trying to say that the glass isn't half full, it's half empty? Gotcha.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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i am quite surprised that most people seem to think a defender without slotted attacks is gimped and i think thats a major part of the issue. since by slotting attack powers you are splitting your slots and drawing away from a defenders main job which ironicly is to defend.
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In the end you have 67 slots to play with. Even if you 6-slotted every power in your primary that leaves 22 slots lying about. That's ample for slotting your secondary powers, and fact of the matter is you're highly unlikely to 6-slot or even take every power in your primary.
Under construction
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I said:
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Force Fields have a lot of holes- all the Super Reflexes ones and all the Invincibility ones. . .
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Jesterman replied:
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I know you think that psi is the only hole that FFs have, but it's not.
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Sigh.
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The real problem with FF isn't the amount of holes. There ought to be holes in the team defence provided by a mere three powers. The problem is that none of the other powers in the set allow an FF Defender to do anything significant against opponents who negate the "big three". The entire rest of the FF set is not sufficent to support a team against anything they cannot handle without support. When a Dark runs into Fear-resistant foes he still has plenty of tools at his disposal. Nothing ever negates the entire Dark, Empathy, or Rad bag of tricks - for example. There are plenty of late-game foes - including a fair number of the endgame AVs - which negate everything in the FF primary save PFF (useless for team assistance) and Detention Field (useless for actually helping to defeat said AV). *That* is a problem. No other Defender set has to face being so completely invalidated.
actually as i have mentioned i have all 4 leader powers and 3 of them are 6 slotted so thats 15 less right there not counting the 3 free ones. add travel powers which i only have flight and air sup. flights 6 slotted since i do not use my combat powers any way . plus stamina(6 slotted) which of course requires 2 extra nearly useless powers to get that brings me down 5 more slots right there so thats only 2 left from the 22 your talking about.
and except for absorb pain which i do not have and res which really needs no slots i am nearly 6 slotted on all my primary powers. i do have TP friend only one slotted of course but almost required to have for a high lvl emp defender. i took mass hypno. as my epic power.
heres my build
Heal Aura 6 slotted all heals
Heal other 6 slotted all heals
recover aura 6 slotted all recharge
regen aura 6 slotted all recharge
adren boost 6 slotted all recharge
fort 1 slotted to hit buff
res 1 slotted recharge
clear mind 1 slotted recharge
dark blast 1 slotted dmg
gloom 1 slotted dmg
brawl , sprint , rest , swift and health all 1 slotted misc.
stamina 6 slotted for end recovery
air super 1 slotted dmg
flight 6 slotted speed
assult 6 slotted for end recovery
tatics 6 slotted for to hit plus
vengence 1 slotted to hit buff
manuvers 6 slotted 3 end 3 defense
TP friend 1 slotted recharge
mass hypno 3 slotted recharge
so you see other then mass hypno and fly all my "Free" slots are taken and since i do no dmg anyway why bother wasting them on my 2 attack powers when i can move faster and get off a occasional emer hold.
i am sure some of our local math majors can provide the actual pluses of having me around but i bet hey are rather huge
EDIT funny thing is in the 3-4 min it took me to log on and check my build during off time hrs i got 2 invites without seek ion 
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actually as i have mentioned i have all 4 leader powers and 3 of them are 6 slotted so thats 15 less right there not counting the 3 free ones. add travel powers which i only have flight and air sup. flights 6 slotted since i do not use my combat powers any way . plus stamina(6 slotted) which of course requires 2 extra nearly useless powers to get that brings me down 5 more slots right there so thats only 2 left from the 22 your talking about.
and except for absorb pain which i do not have and res which really needs no slots i am nearly 6 slotted on all my primary powers. i do have TP friend only one slotted of course but almost required to have for a high lvl emp defender. i took mass hypno. as my epic power.
heres my build
Heal Aura 6 slotted all heals
Heal other 6 slotted all heals
recover aura 6 slotted all recharge
regen aura 6 slotted all recharge
adren boost 6 slotted all recharge
fort 1 slotted to hit buff
res 1 slotted recharge
clear mind 1 slotted recharge
dark blast 1 slotted dmg
gloom 1 slotted dmg
brawl , sprint , rest , swift and health all 1 slotted misc.
stamina 6 slotted for end recovery
air super 1 slotted dmg
flight 6 slotted speed
assult 6 slotted for end recovery
tatics 6 slotted for to hit plus
vengence 1 slotted to hit buff
manuvers 6 slotted 3 end 3 defense
TP friend 1 slotted recharge
mass hypno 3 slotted recharge
so you see other then mass hypno and fly all my "Free" slots are taken and since i do no dmg anyway why bother wasting them on my 2 attack powers when i can move faster and get off a occasional emer hold.
i am sure some of our local math majors can provide the actual pluses of having me around but i bet hey are rather huge
EDIT funny thing is in the 3-4 min it took me to log on and check my build during off time hrs i got 2 invites without seek ion
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Honestly, I think you're making a serious mistake through your total neglect of your secondary. Since you're /dark, you can provide a degree of crowd control as well as damage mitigation via your secondary - in addition to doing some damage.
You'd be of much greater defensive value to your team if you had Tenebrous Tentacles and Nightfall for area accuracy debuffing and additional damage output, especially compared to the questionable worth of assault and vengence.
As far as emergency crowd control, you'd likely be better-off still with Dark Pit compared to Mass Hypno, since the Sleep of Mass Hypno is broken by damage whereas Dark Pit's disorient won't be.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Honestly, I think you're making a serious mistake through your total neglect of your secondary. Since you're /dark, you can provide a degree of crowd control as well as damage mitigation via your secondary - in addition to doing some damage.
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tried that actually back when i first started the char. died alot and took my team with me most of the time. also was alot harder finding groups. when i switched over to pure heals/buffs i not only had no issues finding teams i shot up in lvls real quick. the only thing that has really slowed me down lately is badge collecting and exemping down for TF's which i love to do.
thats one of the reasons i say alot of the "Can't Find a group" is play style. its quite appearent that many share your opion about secondary's. yet by going completely against the "Forum" line of thought i have no issues finding teams. everyone loves to have me even more after seeing what i can add to a team.
but for me thats not a surprise i have always gone against the grain. from everything to a melee ranger back in the day in EQ1. to being a combat , projectile using JE in Earth & Beyond.
i would point out that in any game the % of people that post/read official forums is quite small. some times they do speak for the majority but normally not. in this case i am thinking not since as the Devs have stated they see no problems with Defenders. if a large portion of players disagreed with that the devs would know based on the numbers IE more and more people not playing defenders.
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actually as i have mentioned i have all 4 leader powers and 3 of them are 6 slotted so thats 15 less right there not counting the 3 free ones. add travel powers which i only have flight and air sup. flights 6 slotted since i do not use my combat powers any way . plus stamina(6 slotted) which of course requires 2 extra nearly useless powers to get that brings me down 5 more slots right there so thats only 2 left from the 22 your talking about.
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Then that completely invalidates your claim that there aren't enough slots to go around in terms of slotting secondary powers. You decided to go on a spree in the pool powers, but others might not.
Under construction
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Honestly, I think you're making a serious mistake through your total neglect of your secondary. Since you're /dark, you can provide a degree of crowd control as well as damage mitigation via your secondary - in addition to doing some damage.
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tried that actually back when i first started the char. died alot and took my team with me most of the time.
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That makes absolutely no sense. Unless you were doing just stupid things with the powers it is hard to imagine (a) doing sufficient damage to get aggro from someone who already has it and (b) taking the entire team with you.
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also was alot harder finding groups. when i switched over to pure heals/buffs i not only had no issues finding teams i shot up in lvls real quick.
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If someone is inviting your through LFG they dont' know what powers you have. They can't know until they invite you, unless you're dealing with only people who've previously played with you, in which case you're not having troubles finding groups, you're waiting on a small crowd of people you know to invite you to accept.
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thats one of the reasons i say alot of the "Can't Find a group" is play style.
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Again, until you're in a group with a person you don't know what powers he has, nor what his playstyle is like. Your position is nonsensical.
Under construction
Well, actually, you're not going against the grain per se. Your thinking is right in line with the no-attacks-empath playstyle, which is quite common in fact on the forums.
At early levels, yes, a defender trying to attack more than heal, particularly an emp, will have problems.
After a while, though, that usually clears itself up - particularly as defenses from everyone else mature.
The prevailing forum thought for months WAS to suggest that an empath with any secondary powers was doing their teams a disservice.
And what more balanced empaths like Hobo Healer and LadyMage try to say is that defenders who have a few slotted attacks are NOT necessarily doing their teams a disservice, and in fact, can help their groups a lot by attacking every so often.
Say, Short Circuit 6-slotted for drain, or Tenebrous Tentacles and Dark Pit for a pseudo-hold.
Or indeed, if you 6-slot an attack power, you don't do terrible damage. Funny thing, that.
Heck - way back when, maybe a month into live, I only even started my kin/dark because I saw how useful an empath with Moonbeam (for pulling, a self-heal is not a bad choice when drawing agro) and Tenebrous Tentacles was on a TF with my kat/regen scrapper (then around 18)... after the tank and two blasters didn't return from a hiatus when we all got tired of the TF.
Look - if you like it, that's all that matters, but... there are some choices you made in there that I think you could trim without any problems at all, even if you don't want to have anything to do with dealing with mobs at all.
For instance - if you don't use Air Superiority at all, why not Hover? That seems very strange to me. If you at least have it as, say, your Autoattack for some personal defense (mobs on their butts aren't hitting you), that's one thing, if you have it as a stepping stone to Fly, um... Hover would be far more valuable to you as a melee avoidance power. Fly costs a TON, Hover is dirt cheap to run. If you tend to run Fly in combat, that's probably the reason you...
... put 6 end reductions into Assault. You need, at best, one end reducer, and frankly, IMO, you'd be better off with any other power than Assault. It adds less damage than an enraged. After 22, most builds just don't benefit very much unless you run with 3 or 4 others who also run Assault.
Personally, I'd have not taken Assault. Similarly, Vengeance is a nice buff, but... shrug.
Plus, Gloom (which you don't ever use) rather than Absorb Pain? Seems odd to me. Even one slotted, Absorb Pain would provide you more value than Gloom if you never use it.
You say you draw agro. You're drawing agro from ranged mobs because they can see you.
Having Hasten and Superspeed (SS for the stealth effect) would make your powers recharge faster, and give you a bit of stealth to boot.
SS, even one slotted, is probably faster than using Fly in combat, although if you don't have any toons with it, may take some time to get used to.
Since you are at the epic levels, I would submit that you could swap out the Psy pool for the Energy pool, drop Stamina (!!), pick up Hasten and Superspeed, pick up Conserve Power, and come out *far ahead* on your energy useage. Conserve Power is tremendous, and you could cycle that and Recovery Aura, and be vastly ahead of where you were on endurance usage with Stamina alone, when RA wasn't up. CP is a lot better than Stamina when its up, in my experience.
Edit: Admittedly, if you exemp, you are at a disadvantage. That would have you keeping Stamina. But I do think you might be better off dropping the Leadership pool - and you have Recall Friend to do rezzes, right? So every 2 minutes, you can Rez someone? I think I might drop that, if it were me. Hasten/Superspeed would help a lot more than Recall Friend. Drop Recall and Assault, and there's your Hasten/Superspeed, and you get to keep Stamina.
If you have Recall Friend to cart everyone to missions, well, that's your call, of course.
So, to recap, what *I* would do if I were you: drop Gloom, pick up Absorb Pain. Drop the fitness pool, that's three powers, and pick up Hasten/Superspeed (net gain: one power and no slots). Drop Psy pool, pick up Conserve Power. As long as you are at least 43, you could fully slot CP for recharge, and it would have 60 second downtime for 90 second uptime. You'd have a full blue bar at all times between that and Recovery Aura.
Exemping, of course, that probably won't cut it, but ... oh well, can't have everything I guess.
Drop 5 slots from Assault, put them in Fortitude (season to taste). Maybe 6 recharges. That way, you could keep Fort up on about *4* toons at a time. Or toss more to-hit buffs or +def.
Drop Air Superiority, pick up Hover. Move two slots from Fly to Hover, so that you're not utterly crawling when you use it. Or make a bind to switch back and forth. Fly is crazy-expensive to run at all times.
And, you'll like this. At 44, pick up Powerbuildup. That will add another +100% of effectiveness to your heals, buffs, etc.
If your AP is, say, 1000 points, with Powerbuildup, it would be 2000 - with just one recharge slot in AP. If your 6-slotted Heal Other was, say, 600 (no idea, it's an example), it would go to 800. (base 200 hypothetically, *3 from 6 heal SOs, *4 with PBU running).
Okay, it's only 15 seconds, but those 15 seconds might be very useful to you.
$.02
Even with your good team-support build, I think you have room for improvement in power choice and slotting.
It's unsolicited advice, so ...(shrug).
If nothing else, 5 slots in Assault is massive overkill - switch to Fortitude. Air Sup is useless if you don't use it, switch to Hover. Gloom is useless if you don't use it, get Absorb Pain instead.
If you only changed that much, IMO, your team value would improve.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
As far as "FF's should have a psi shield": no, they shouldn't. Force Fields have a lot of holes- all the Super Reflexes ones and all the Invincibility ones- but they can make seven squishies into near-tanks EXCEPT against those holes.
And if you plug one or the other of those holes, you've made SR or INV +FF into a truly unstoppable duo.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.