Please make an appointment to raid our base...
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-05-30 24:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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My concern is how the base system will support the SMALL supergroup.
My SG is a total of 10 guys. That's it. We're all real-life friends and we want to stay small and tight-knit. I am having serious doubts that we'll be able to compete against the other groups out there with 75 full members.
It seems that the base-raiding system is not geared for small groups or casual gamers. Lord Recluse, can you provide any comment on this?
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I am int he same boat, and we can't all reliably play simultaneously. I imagine that there will be heavy limits on sizes or each aspect.
Turrets/defenses will likely be SO expensive and rather fragile. If a turret costs 10 million influence and you get 6, imagine replacing all 6 on a weekly basis? Now do the same math for doors, teleporters, super computers, etc.
I also feel that there will be population limits based on what Lord R said. I imagine if you set your population to 10, then ONLY 10 people can raid your base.
What I wonder is:
will this be treated like a TF? If you leave the group, can you rejoin the raid?
Can you bring a full set up Rez inspirations with you? Do defenders revive a la hospitals?
If you destroy their power generator, can they no longer use their base as a hospital? can you detroy their "sick bay" stopping them from reviving?
Is base design locked during a raid? If you destroy a turret, cna you make a new one on the fly? can you create a dead end where there was none by removing a connecting room? that would be nasty.....
I just imagine a raiding party entering the door and a slew of defenses slaughtering them as they walk in. If the raiders manage to kill 1 or 2 defenders, they'll revive in the base and be back to fighting in no time....UNLESS dying during a raid on EITHER side puts you in observe mode...which would be great. Before you steal the item, destroy a few valuables to further kick them while they're down!!!
Will we be able to trash individual rooms if we are successful? I'd like to see that, and I think it would be fun. Say a base is raided so thoroughly the raiders have time to actually ransack it: flip the beds, grafitti walls, etc... Might be alot of coding, but could be fun 
Lvl 50 Fire/fire tank
Lvl 50 Fire/kin controller
Lvl 50 En/En blaster
Lvl 50 Ar/dev blaster
Lvl 50 Emp/el defender
Lvl 25 Sonic/Sonic defender
another potential 'exploit' (i use that VERY lightly) for base raiding is having a bunch of tanks/blasters and a dedicated teleporter and reviver. 1 guy dies, the TP person TP's them to the door to get revived and they go back to fight....rinse and repeat.
I just hope you get X number of 'lives' per side. That sounds fair to me.
i also expect a limit on how close items can be to each other. that way you can't have a path with 4 sleep crystals and 4 turrets right next to each other, or have your power near your item being raided. That would make the defenders have to spread out!!
My biggest fear for bases when they come out is that people who have themed super groups, specifically magic based groups. A guild of mages is not likely to have a bay of auto turrets poised over the bulkhead of there library. They may however have a arcane ward that serves the same purpose as the turret by shooting bolds of lighting at those who get to close and a wall of force barring the library to those who are not members of the guild. I hope we have the diversity in bases to make both viable options.
That's a good point...I wonder if you'll need to stick to certain tile sets to get certain items...but if your SG wants to role play the magic theme, I guess you'll have to skip turrets hoping that the devs make a similar function but new graphic item, i.e. yhe bolt launcher device :-) maybe instead of a gun, it could be an auto turret with a bow and arrow set up....
Excellent to see some things confirmed with others debunked. I guess I had assumed that teleporters would teleport you to your base to defend it. That, of course could make it very difficult for base raiders who thought they had finally cleared out the defenders only to find several more popping in.
If there's a limit on how crushing you can make your base defenses, and if people can't just teleport home to defend it, then I would say that shifts advantage back to the raiders instead.
I mean, after all, the raiders can say, "ok, in 2 weeks, we're going to raid someone's base at such and such time. Everyone clear your schedule." Meanwhile, even with the defenders getting 24 hour notice, they're less likely to be able to muster as many people to defend.
Like a lot of us, I have several alts, even when I am playing. Also, like all of us, I have work and stuff to do. So even 24 hours notice isn't always enough for me since I don't play every day.
But if I'm on the raiding side and I'm given 2 weeks notice, I'm more likely to be ready for it, especially if I log in and the SG message of the day is "Reminder, we're raiding someone at this time"
I'll usually vote for realism over balance any day, but I have to admit, now that we're hearing inherent base defenses aren't going to be this strong and teleporters won't work how I assumed, without notice, defenders will get crushed almost every time unless they camp their bases every day during the "raidable window." And that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
It would be cool if somehow smaller, less powerful raiders were able to somehow plan sneak attacks.
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While it will be a challenge for the attacker, it won't be as heavily stacked as described. You can't just cram your base with defenses; there will be limits. Defenses are meant to supplement and hinder, not overwhelm and crush. Furthermore there's more than one way for the attackers to succeed at their raid, so designing just to keep them from reaching your vault won't guarantee your defense. You're going to need people spread throughout your base ready to react to other tactics.
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Will we be getting defensive artillery like the ones you can see in Council bases? And for that matter, will those same turrets going to be used to attack us in PvE instead of just being decoration?
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Is base design locked during a raid? If you destroy a turret, cna you make a new one on the fly? can you create a dead end where there was none by removing a connecting room? that would be nasty.....
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I think it takes some time for the changes to go in. But what happens to the people that happen to be inside the base chilling out when the SG Leader decides to renovate it?
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another potential 'exploit' (i use that VERY lightly) for base raiding is having a bunch of tanks/blasters and a dedicated teleporter and reviver. 1 guy dies, the TP person TP's them to the door to get revived and they go back to fight....rinse and repeat.
I just hope you get X number of 'lives' per side. That sounds fair to me
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Most likely handled like with PvP matches. Either a time limit on the raid or a set number of respawns/reentries possible.
I actually have one issue that I haven't seen addressed yet.
Have you considered what to do about groups wearing out others?
i.e.
Some group with some infinite amount of money (don't kid yourself, somehow someone will get enough to do this).
They schedule a raid for every day in the future at their earliest convienence. They then do not show up (or bring in one person who doesn't try to win or doesn't care.. or bring in some martyr or something).
They do this for as long as it takes to get the IoP with no real competition.
The defender now is permanantly scarred from base raids and never wants to participate again.
The offender eventually obtains all of the IoPs, and merely plays against the NPCs that occasionally attack.
Yes, this has happened before. The offender eventually got banned for "going against the spirit of the game" but the company lost many a subscription because the game was not fun, but only scheduled raids (that the offender didn't really show up to).
Maybe have a clause where the offender has to do some (tangible 1/4-1/2 maybe?) amount of damage to the force field in order to attack again so soon?
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My concern is how the base system will support the SMALL supergroup.
My SG is a total of 10 guys. That's it. We're all real-life friends and we want to stay small and tight-knit. I am having serious doubts that we'll be able to compete against the other groups out there with 75 full members.
It seems that the base-raiding system is not geared for small groups or casual gamers. Lord Recluse, can you provide any comment on this?
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Though not in the same boat, the concern is valid; even for large SGs as all toons can't be on at the same time. Now if we could include our entire Coalition on base raids that might alleviate any problems.
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Dwarf Star; Angel-Night, Adoniel, angel of the 12th hour of the night; among the many
Freedom Factor
and now from Warhammer Online, Gorlok, Greenskin shaman
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Sure, scheduling is not "real world", but there are a lot of things in games that aren't.
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Not real world? Pssh! Maybe for those with not enough imagination. Here's a scenario for you:
Dr. Villain: Prepare yourselves, my minions! My brilliant mind has detected a flaw in the outer defenses of the Galaxy Circle's base! For a short period of time each day, their flux inhibitor cycles down just enough that with the proper application of my scientific genius and copious amounts of cream cheese, we can force an opening large enough for us to enter, and at long last I will have the Cruciate Gimcrack of Desirability within my grasp! And then, nothing will be able to stand in my way! Muhuhahahahaha!
Minion: Uh, yeah, boss, but, like, what if someone else gets there first? Mr. Smarty-Pants keeps bragging about how he's smarter than you, and even though that's impossible, maybe he's figured out the weakness, too. We'd have to fight him and the Galaxy Circle, and that don't sound like much fun.
Dr. Villain: You fool, that would never happen! Only I am possessed of a sufficiently advanced intellect to have detected this flaw! Hmmm, but even morons like Stupid-Pants can get lucky...Hmmm, let me do some calculations...Curses! If someone else were, through sheer dumb luck, to pierce their defenses before we made our move, the system would immediately compensate and their base would be impenetrable again until the next day! This must not be allowed to transpire!
I have only one question: will characters in a large supergroup be able to communicate effectively without teamspeak?
In arena supergroup battles, if you want to communicate effectively with your supergroup, you have to either use broadcast (not exactly wise strategically) or huddle the entire SG nearby and use local chat (also not particularly smart). Using Supergroup chat in Arena battles is apparently a no-no, and this DESTROYS reliable communication.
Just saying.
It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
I agree with Tal,it is a silly implementation,and takes the feel of being bad,and attacking the good guys base,Umm yeah how bout 4:00 pm? yeah that sounds good Brain Crusher,Ok Capt. Fist see ya then. Yeah I can really see getting excited about raiding a base,where everybody knows your comin.
And this is the best they could do? what else in the game is gonna be lame like this,if they can't even get a base raid together?
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My concern is how the base system will support the SMALL supergroup.
My SG is a total of 10 guys. That's it. We're all real-life friends and we want to stay small and tight-knit. I am having serious doubts that we'll be able to compete against the other groups out there with 75 full members.
It seems that the base-raiding system is not geared for small groups or casual gamers. Lord Recluse, can you provide any comment on this?
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Well, your 10-man SG would need to get an item of power first, which would likely be a chore in itself. I keep foreseeing items of power largely ending up in the hands of the bigger SGs with the massive influence and members to get one and hold onto it. So your SG can probably go raiding to its heart's content, but I don't think protecting your base would often be a problem.
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This is still speculation of course. It would be disappointing if true though. I mean, even within the promotional cinematic trailer for CoV at E3 showed a base raid staged by a team of 5 (Statesman, Positron, Manticore, Synapse, and ForeShadow). I know it was just a promo video, but my hope is that the system can scale for SGs of different sizes.
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My biggest fear for bases when they come out is that people who have themed super groups, specifically magic based groups. A guild of mages is not likely to have a bay of auto turrets poised over the bulkhead of there library. They may however have a arcane ward that serves the same purpose as the turret by shooting bolds of lighting at those who get to close and a wall of force barring the library to those who are not members of the guild. I hope we have the diversity in bases to make both viable options.
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Thats a really good idea.. you should start a topic in suggestions and ideas just in case the devs haven't thought of it.
WoW, That was the most, polite, informative, thought out post I have read by you Lord_Recluse.
I solute you Sir
I have spoken of you in anger before and I'm sorry. I have renewed respect for you. You have truely risen to Stateman's level with that post.
However, I'm afraid I must still arrest you if I find you wondering the streets of Paragon City. 
Looking forward to base raids!!!!! 
Post deleted: Stuck it on the wrong thread.
I've got to tell you. More then anything else at this point. I am SO looking forward to having a base and the whole design scenario of bases. I love designing things.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
I'll take fun and playability in a game over 'realism' anyday.
Appointment windows seem like a reasonable way to deal with base raids.
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Post deleted: Stuck it on the wrong thread.
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This is of course code for "Stalker powersets avalable on release will inclue Twin Pistols and Kusari." 
Will bases only be able to be placed in City Zones? Will there be a zone limit and then filled up (sory of like in SWG and planets filled)?
I can't wait for bases, and I would really love a base in the Storm Palace if possible.
Cheers!
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I have to disagree, they're exploring new avenues rather than recycling tried and tested methods. I praise them for trying to find new ways for PvP to work rather than kick them because they're trying to innovate.
They certainly have the knowledge and I'm curious how you came to that rather ridgid conlusion about their abilities?
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They're also making it friendly for both PvP enthusiasts and people that want to avoid it.
To be perfectly frank, competition heightens emotions. In a majority of the PvP games, they attempt to make it PvE friendly, but in most of the time, you still have instances where a high-level cretin gets off on griefing the low levels of the opposing side.
By limiting things to an appointment, or permission to battle two things happen:
a) a break from the game occurs that reinforces the fact that this is a game, not real
b) it allows people that don't want to PvP to not PvP
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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How about making the base more attackable when more SG members utilize it.
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Pretty much what I was going to suggest. If a minimum number of people are on (and not in TFs) then a base could be set to "battlemode" - my thoughts are that it should be a straight "You now have enough people to defend you base. " switch, rather than making it scalable.
For those that think a "surprise" raid is a good design, post your home phone so we can "simulate and test" that concept.
I am confused, though - does this mean that the attacker gets to choose the time, reguardless of the defender's real life? If that's true, the western and eastern hemisphere's are (basically) going to war.
I also hope there is some limit to number of defenders and as well as attackers. I can easily see twelve attackers going in vs twelve defenders and discovering that Global chat allows us to summon help from everyone's alt that's in our SG. In Virtue:People's Vanguard 's case, that might be a bit much.
Question: Will hero groups be able to raid OTHER hero groups bases? I assue that villian groups will be able to raid other villian groups, but this might be a bit "non-realistic"
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I'm beginning to doubt your qualifications as a villain. First your staff was extremely nice and helpful at E3 and now this...compassion for the players. It's disgusting.
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Oh, he's a Villian - he's just not evil. More like Ming the Merciless instead of Freddy Krueger. Think of Lord (Dr.) Victor vonDoom when he's well written.
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Sure, scheduling is not "real world", but there are a lot of things in games that aren't.
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If it is assumed that we (the players) are taking the role of comic book wirters, then i think it very apt that base raids are scheduled. IN the same way Stan Lee decided when the Fantastic Four woudl be attacked by Doctor Doom, so too will we decide when our heroes attack each other.
My take on the situation anyway.
As for enhancements, I think all enhancements should have the same bonus while in PvP zones.
Actually, a good discussion would be to discuss the things like infinite stamina and travel powers that may or may not be in the base raiding.
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While it will be a challenge for the attacker, it won't be as heavily stacked as described. You can't just cram your base with defenses; there will be limits. Defenses are meant to supplement and hinder, not overwhelm and crush. Furthermore there's more than one way for the attackers to succeed at their raid, so designing just to keep them from reaching your vault won't guarantee your defense. You're going to need people spread throughout your base ready to react to other tactics.
Ultimately the goal is to make this fun -- for both sides. That means not frustrating for the defenders because they got raided without warning or have to spend all their time standing around their base "just in case" and not hopeless for the attackers because the odds are so stacked against them.
Sure, scheduling is not "real world", but there are a lot of things in games that aren't.
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It will wind up that way. I promise you, if you leave even the slightest possiblity that a guild could dominate this process, they will. Since this game has far to many variables for you to account for and you're adding more, then this will happen.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.