Please make an appointment to raid our base...
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-05-30 24:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The one question I have in all of this, though, is what happens if I get an item of power, and I just refuse to schedual raids on my base?
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The way it worked in Shadowbane (more or less, it's been a while) was this...
The attacking party would use an in-game mechanic to announce their intenttion to raid. The defending party would have 24 hours to respond. If they responded, they had the ability to set the start of the raid at anywhere from a minimum of 24 to a max of 72 hours. If the initial 24 hour timer passed without response, then then the raid would start 24 hours after that timer expired. This prevented people from avoiding raids.
SOme of my details (especially timer length) may be off, but that's the gist of the system.
"Trust me, it worked in the Simpsons." - Calash
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This is why MMORPG PvP is stupid.
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It's no more stupid than l33T l00T. Isn't it all just a matter of taste, and everyone's opinion is just as good as everyone else's? If l33T l00T is a good idea in this game, then PvP is a good idea.
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I really don't care what they do. The Base raids are a silly idea to begin with.
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No more silly than what has happened with Hamidon enhancements.
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They sound really cool on paper but what will happen is that a few hardcore PvP guilds will dominate
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Yeah, just like Hamidon enhancements are essentially "dominated" by a few hardcore farmers. If l33T l00T like Hamidon enhancements is good for CoH, then so is base raiding on a schedule.
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so you're arguing that PvP base raids are a good thing or that Hamidon enhancers are a bad thing?
There are way too many things that break immersion in the game already to really say that an appointment system is any better or worse than what we've got.
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This is why MMORPG PvP is stupid.
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It's no more stupid than l33T l00T. Isn't it all just a matter of taste, and everyone's opinion is just as good as everyone else's? If l33T l00T is a good idea in this game, then PvP is a good idea.
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I really don't care what they do. The Base raids are a silly idea to begin with.
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No more silly than what has happened with Hamidon enhancements.
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They sound really cool on paper but what will happen is that a few hardcore PvP guilds will dominate
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Yeah, just like Hamidon enhancements are essentially "dominated" by a few hardcore farmers. If l33T l00T like Hamidon enhancements is good for CoH, then so is base raiding on a schedule.
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Let's not carry arguments over across threads please.
This is my opinion. It's not worth much since base raiding is going in. More power to those who like it. As you said, I love loot and you don't. So you can have your base raids and I'll have my loot.
Don't make this personal Dogface, this is just recreation. I don't feel like working hard today so I'm posting.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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so you're arguing that PvP base raids are a good thing or that Hamidon enhancers are a bad thing?
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I'm saying that either are equally defensible from any sort of rational perspective.
Like I said a long time ago. Time to start cozing up to European players as we are online when most of the states are going to sleep-sleeping-getting up. We are also not giving much credit to base defenses. As far as I can see, there aren't too many heroes in Striga trying to take on the Councel Base's defenses solo -aka- suicide!
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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As far as I can see, there aren't too many heroes in Striga trying to take on the Councel Base's defenses solo -aka- suicide!
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It's not suicide. It depends on your level, among other things. By the time it's no longer suicide, it can become rather tedious.
How embarassing can that be for the Striga base, to know that the ONLY reason they haven't been taken out permanently is that the heroes who could do it think of them as too piddly to be worth the effort?
As a few posters above mentioned, Shadowbane had a pretty decent system for base raiding (banes) but it was still flawed. The ability for the defender to set the time at an ungodly hour was just stupid. Defending or attacking at 4AM is no fun.
The "surprise" base raid would favor the high school and college kids who can stay up until 4 AM to do the ninja mission. Want that item of power? Just stay up until 3AM and get three or four friends and you are guaranteed a win. Those of us who have jobs/families/significant others can't or won't do that.
Camping your own base "just in case" somebody shows up to steal your item of power turns a game into a job. Sure, you could get a warning that your defenses are getting breached and everyone needs to run back to the base to defend it. But as anyone who's done any PvP knows, the longest part of any fight is always the setup. Making sure a leader is acknowledged, setting a rally point, starting teams, discussing tactics... by the time the defenders get organized, the raid would be over.
Mutual agreement of appointment times will work just fine. Just don't expect a lot of them to happen on weeknights.
How about making the base more attackable when more SG members utilize it. For example, when the base is empty, the defenses (depending on how much you can afford) are near police drone effective. This would keep all but the best stealth builds from getting in. The defenses could lessen with the number of members in the base at a particular time meaning a better chance to get the item with a force assault. I think they said something about getting a notification that your base is being or was raided if you are not there at that moment, so if someone has stealthed in, they may still have to move through your laborynth of a base before the SG member get there. Just an idea.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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As a few posters above mentioned, Shadowbane had a pretty decent system for base raiding (banes) but it was still flawed. The ability for the defender to set the time at an ungodly hour was just stupid. Defending or attacking at 4AM is no fun.
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Well, I always considered that part of the strategy of siege and defense. If you think you you can muster more force then the attacker at 4am, then that's a good tactical decision. But's that's something that's hard to judge, and so a riskier proposition then going for a primetime siege. Sure, a primetime battle will be fun for more people, but from the viewpoint of a general and guild leader, I'd rather have a few people successfully defend then have everyone present for a loss.
Anyway, my point was that you could make good arguements for either strategy, and that decision-making process was one of the things I found most interesting about it.
"Trust me, it worked in the Simpsons." - Calash
It might not be the best Roleplaying Experience but it has its advantages. Which have been named.
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If this system for base raids had been referred to as "Fair Warning" or "Showdown Challenge" or "Red Alert" rather than 'appointment', I don't think there would have been such a strong negative response from some.
GreyDog said it well; this CAN be fun if the it is represented in a fun, creative, comics-style way. "Lord Recluse" was correct in his original statement, too; this will only be fun if people participate. And everyone who said, "Let's not make this an issue of perma-camping the base in the off-chance it gets attacked"... AMEN.
I have an idea on a base raid system that uses appointments. You get to schedule a base raid through some kind of system and that whole day the base is blocked from any other raids. Only one raiding party at a time. Cant schedule a raid one right after the other. 24 hour wait between raids. This is so when someone has a raid scheduled and you want to know exactly what time it is you wont be able to. Niether will the next person raiding the base because there would be whole days blocked out instead of hourly time frames. Example: Joes Sg is raiding Tims Sg at 3:37am. Tim knows that he has a base raid scheduled for today (will go into details later), but he wants to know exactly what time it is. So he asks his buddy John to pretend raid his base to find out when exactly his base is being raided. John looks to book an appointment for a raid and sees that a whole day is booked up for a raid. No one will know what time the raid is scheduled except the raider. This will help ensure spontaneous base raiding.
Now for the defending base raiders side. I think we should use the same color coding that we have here in america for terrorists.
Black - No base raids scheduled for this week.
Green - Someone has scheduled a raid in the coming week (7 days).
Blue - The raid is getting close and is within 5 days.
Yellow - Your base is in immenent danger. 3 days until the base raid starts.
Orange - You have 24 hours until your base is going to be under attack.
Red - Within 2 hours your base will be under siege.
The first time your base is raided you get can get anywhere from a black to a yellow alert. For practical purposes all raid times should be held on central time zone since that is what Cryptic seems to use as a standard time. The reason the color cannot be above yellow for the first time is because you shouldnt be able to be attacked the first day after you acquire the item that enables you to be raided. Example: Joe acquires the item on monday 11:59pm cst. Tim books an appointment to retake the acquired item back on tuesday 12:01 cst. This would mean Joe has virtually no time for preperation to defend the newly acquired item. But if the base wasnt able to be attacked within a 48 hour period the alert would be yellow (within 3 days). That way if Joe acquires the item on monday 11:59pm cst, then a new raider could not attack until wednesday 11:59 pm cst.
Base raids should be limited to a one hour timed mission.
Also say two different SG's or VG's are attacking the group with the acquired item. The first SG has scheduled their attack on tuesday at 11:59pm cst. And the second VG has booked up an attack on the base on wednesday 11:59pm cst (24 hour wait period between base raids) then when the first SG base has ended on wednesday at 12:59am and the defenders are successful at keeping the item, the alert status will now be orange (within 24 hours).
If an attacking SG or VG is successful at taking the item away from the defenders, then obviously any other raids scheduled for the next days are canceled towards that base. With some kind of witty message say "Johns fortress was succesfully defeated by Tim". Then the alert status for the failed defending base would become black.
Just an idea feel free to shoot holes in it or add stuff or ask questions. 
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The suprise aspect could still have an impact, depending on how close to the raid they let you notify the opposing SG. If you can send a notification 20-30 minutes before the actual raid, that's a pretty good suprise, and you would have the other SG scrambling to ready their defenses.
If it's something like an hour or two, most of you are right- the genuine suprise factor somewhat goes out the window.
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
In the magical universe where CrazyMonkey is emperor of all, and all devs do as CrazyMonkey says, this is how base raids work:
There are Really Cool Things, which can be obtained by SGs. They have little gameplay value other than status. Possession of a Really Cool Thing opens your base up to raids, so that others can steal your Really Cool Thing. If you don't want your base raided, you shouldn't go questing for Really Cool Things.
All SG members receive a Nifty Tele-Porto Wristwatch with their SG membership kit. Clicking a button on your Nifty Tele-Porto Wristwatch teleports you to your base instantly.
As long as SG members are on-line, and their base contains a Really Cool Thing, that SG's base is raidable. The raiding party can not consist of more raiders than there are defenders on-line at the time + 3.
When a team wants to raid, they go to a special contact, who lists all currently vulnerable SG bases, how many raiders can be in the raiding party, and what Really Cool Thing the raiders can expect to earn if they are successful. The raiders select an appropriate base to attack, and are given the location of the enemy base. They may pass through that base's entrance as if it were a mission door. The opportunity to enter lasts for a maximum of 15 minutes, and if no raiders have entered the base, the raid automatically fails. The raid contact is located far enough away from bases that it will take the raiding party at least 90 seconds to reach the base using te fastest travel powers. The raiding party also receives a map of the target base at this point, for planning purposes.
When a base is selected for a raiding, all SG members receive notification. They will have at least 90 seconds to return to their base and get ready, but probably more, as the raiding party will probably give the base map at least a cursory once-over. The defenders may choose to use their Nifty Tele-Porto Wristwatch to return to their base and defend it, or ignore the call and continue herding monkeys in Crey's Folly.
Really Cool Things have varying degrees of coolness. Depending on the coolness factor of a Really Cool Thing, each has a minimum number of total man-hours it must be defended per week or be forfeited. This means the Cooler your Thing is, the more SG members you'll have to have around defending it, or it will be forfeited. Smaller SGs or SGs with players who aren't on-line as often will have to settle for the Lesser Cool Things. Larger SGs can expect huge raid battles while defending their Tremendously Cool Things.
The way Cryptic is doing it, is perfect. Sending out notifications does nothing if no one is online. This is avoiding the alarm clock raids held in games like DAoC. Setting an appointment so that there is fair play is perfectly acceptable and shows a willingness to make sure their game stays balanced.
so i dont get whats so abd. You realize that you get a time window that grows and shrinks based on the number of Items of power. And they get to attack any where in that time window. But onlyo ne sg can scheduale at at ime. Still has surprise, but also allows people to have real lifes. not a bad idea.
And base raid does not equal arena pvp - half of a base raid would be figuring otu the design of a base. A straight line with a bunch of turetts would be an easy base raid. A twisty turny maze without a map would be a pain, and allow a few 50's to hold of an SG's worth if theyre smart about it.
Tal_N,
You are entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to mine, which is that thier solution is eminently more interesting for gameplay. I have been in PvP online games where people can attack opponents' base of operations without notice or warning. It doesn't work very well. Nothing like logging in and finding your careful work destroyed just because somebody could marshal a large force from Europe to hit your base at 4 AM in the morning when no one is around. Or being the only hero around to defend your base when 20 enemies show up. Neither is satisfying. In fact, they are deeply UNsatisfying.
Scheduling makes it more of an event, and base raids should be events, not random strikes at odd hours.
If you REALLY want to see your way at its worst, go play a free online game called Netropolis. I played it several years ago, and have no desire to play it again. Talk to me again after you have tried that for a little while. Spend a few days building up a syndicate, then enjoy the fun of waking up every morning seeing every property you have burned down or subverted to other players. Despite any defense attempted. Literally the only defense you had was to happen to be on when the coordinated 'attacks' began. It got old, quickly
But what's the purpose of RISKING a base raid.
Let's say I have the "Star of Oblivia" or whatever in my base.
Why consent to a base raid? Your only opprotunity is to LOSE what you're trying to protect. The benefits must be commensurate with the risk.
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Why consent to a base raid? Your only opprotunity is to LOSE what you're trying to protect. The benefits must be commensurate with the risk.
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Not meaning to offend, but I don't think you understand how it works. Simply having the item in your base means that you have already consented to a base raid. If a rival group determines a time they will attack your base, you can't tell them no.
Ahhhh...so they're just being polite enough to notify you ahead of time? Interesting.
I find this perfectly immersive, Thrakazog from the Tick comics as obsessed with schedualing, even though he was the mightest of villains on earth he was consistantly thwarted by his need to schedual conflicts in advance...
but seriously...I think this is more fun for both sides and doesn't turn the game inot a job
There was a post a couple posts ago about a common goal in PVP. There was an idea I kicked around back in the days before visual MMORPG's in a game called MajorMud.
Obviously the bases are located in the COV/COH zones since raids will be from opposing factions. What could be a good goal in terms of the fight between good and evil can come from these zones.
For example, if a zone has 20 bases, (10 good, 10 bad) with 20 items of power. Whichever side controls the majority of the items controls the zone.
So lets say COV players have 13 of the 20 items of power. Than the zone becomse more oriented towards the COV players aka more evil and they get a bonus to their stats.
If they control all 20 power items, than that zone becomes inherently evil and much harder for the COH players to win it back etc etc.
Lets say COH players controls the majority of the items, than that zone becomes good and COV players have a harder time etc etc.
It sounds good in my head but dont kill me if its retarded.
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There was a post a couple posts ago about a common goal in PVP. There was an idea I kicked around back in the days before visual MMORPG's in a game called MajorMud.
Obviously the bases are located in the COV/COH zones since raids will be from opposing factions. What could be a good goal in terms of the fight between good and evil can come from these zones.
For example, if a zone has 20 bases, (10 good, 10 bad) with 20 items of power. Whichever side controls the majority of the items controls the zone.
So lets say COV players have 13 of the 20 items of power. Than the zone becomse more oriented towards the COV players aka more evil and they get a bonus to their stats.
If they control all 20 power items, than that zone becomes inherently evil and much harder for the COH players to win it back etc etc.
Lets say COH players controls the majority of the items, than that zone becomes good and COV players have a harder time etc etc.
It sounds good in my head but dont kill me if its retarded.
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Sorry Rock but base will be placed in special zones...as stated by statesman:
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Bases will be in hidden areas - accessible only through the wonders of Portal Corp. teleporters. You'll find these throughout both Paragon City and the Rogue Isles.
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but good idea rock
I think a 6 hour warning would be enough to be honest, rather than have something like a 24 hour notice of attack whereby the whole feeling of this being a 'raid' rather than a staged event is lost.
To be franky I don't see a problem with unannounced raid since the difference between a good supergroup and a bad supergroup is one which is able to effectively defend their bases. We now have coalition chat which means the best connected SGs will ALWAYS have people around to defend a base.
But since alot of people feel that this might turn base defending into a 'job' then clearly another option should be explored. Something that is a compromise between the spontanious and planned. Thats why I suggest a 6 hour warning which is done in such a way that it doesn't seem like an appointment and does have a sense of urgency.
Since a base raid starts with a portal opening into the base from a hostile location it would make sense that thebase defences would detect abnormal energy signitures which would altert the SG to a raid in progress. The portal effect would start small and grow more and more obvious within the base to add tension to the who raid and make it a little more cinematic. A 6 hour building up window would be an ideal solution as it allows the SG members online to organise a defence. This again means that there is a difference between a bad and a good SG, a really well organised group would have a website and forum which allows them to get out notification to people who are outside the game.
I'd say that this would be a nice compromise to ensure a decent showing at the base while also making it seem like a hostile attempt on the base rather than something done by appointment. If you start getting into 8 or even 10 hour notification then a base raid just doesn't feel urgent enough.
Frankly I'd like to see a maximum of 3 hours notification but some might still say thats too short to organise a defence.
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This is why MMORPG PvP is stupid.
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It's no more stupid than l33T l00T. Isn't it all just a matter of taste, and everyone's opinion is just as good as everyone else's? If l33T l00T is a good idea in this game, then PvP is a good idea.
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I really don't care what they do. The Base raids are a silly idea to begin with.
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No more silly than what has happened with Hamidon enhancements.
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They sound really cool on paper but what will happen is that a few hardcore PvP guilds will dominate
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Yeah, just like Hamidon enhancements are essentially "dominated" by a few hardcore farmers. If l33T l00T like Hamidon enhancements is good for CoH, then so is base raiding on a schedule.