Please make an appointment to raid our base...
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-05-30 24:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Nope, do the math, 6 hours isn't sufficient. If you are smart enough to figure out the time difference between the UK and the states, then I'm sure you can figure out why 6 hours isn't enough.
Needs to be 24 hours.
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Forget time difference, one of the opposing SG gets up at 2am sets the attack going, and they break in at 8am while the other side has breakfast. I could live with a 24 hour warning. We could provide a decent defence team with that much warning, but certainly whether I was available or not would be blind luck. I'd pity the small/less active SGs, but we could do it...
However, I tend to feel, unless SGs max sizes get bigger, suprise raids just aren't likely to find enough people online...
Kitsune, generally like your idea. Some slight issues with times still (what if the enemy SG leader puts the 6 hour zone at 2am-8am? Again this is particularly an issue for those of us in other countries). Apart from that, no flaws I can spot.
Mostly, this entire thread makes me very, VERY glad I'm not going to be held responsible for the final decision 
I think generally the problem comes from the fact of the time difference...because as much as we deny it there are players(including myself) who live in a Different CONTINENT.
Let me give you an example:
7 am here(asia) is 6 pm est at the states.
I know your gonna say...big deal most of the players are FROM USA....sorry to burst your bubble but no matter how little our numbers are.... WE ARE STILL PART OF THE COmmunity....
In another note I like katsune ideas, generally anyway
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Here's an idea I like. You have to option of setting base raids to schedule or anytime. The catch is that the number of base raiders at an anytime raid can only be less than or equal to the number of base defenders online at the time. So if there's only 1 member of the SG online, only 1 attacker is allowed in the base, and a tell is sent to the defender, wherever he is that his base is being raided and to come at once, ( with a click box that will automatically teleport him to the base wherever he is.)
Doesn't matter if the raider is level 50 and the defender is level 10, that's the chance you take when you set it to anytime.
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I like it!
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
The goal of base raiding is to make it an event, something both sides can look forward to, strategize for, and participate in....
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Thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU oh mighty Lord of Malevolent Evil!
Speaking as one of the early players of Ultima Online, I can tell you first-hand how [censored]-y having your base (or, in that case, castle) broken into and looted while you weren't online can be. I can recall three separate occasions when I logged in to find my "home" violated by housebreakers (I believe they fixed the bugs that these griefers used in that game, but it did suck at the time).
I truly appreciate that you've given the matter some forethought and are taking steps to make base raiding "fun," if less spontaneous.
Of course, the appointment may not be solely up to the invaders. It may be an actual appointment where both sides must agree on a time, which avoids off hour base raids or raids where one group can call on their members at an earlier time than another.
Plus of course, being consensual, a group could turn down a raid.
oooo there's a thought...
a supergroup (I'm sure every server has one) hoards a ton of trophies and then refuses EVERY request for a raid. I don't like that...sounds eerily similar to.... early Hami raids and the hoarding of the HO's.
perhaps give them a required acceptance of 3 per month or something? or if all raid requests are refused in 1 month double/triple the next rent charge? There needs to be an incentive for people to accept the raids other than PvP if the only thing they have to do is refuse it every time. Oh please someone tell me that's been addressed already or that it's being worked out... 
Summer Heat
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...
What they will be doing is making certain content only available for those who PvP, that includes PvE missions set in PvP zones which are completely opitional. Remember that the devs need to draw people into PvP who won't normally try it so no matter how you cut it the people who don't want to do PvP will be missing some significant PvE content.
...
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I just really really hope the devs do not go this way. This is a forced mix of PvP Hardcore players (who not are really interested in the PvE content) and the PvE fans, who just do forced PvP then to experience the added content.
This solution would be a very bad design decision in my book.
Do not try to "lure" people not interested in PvP into it. Make it fun, make it fair, reduce griefing opportunities, but not try to "lure" the "explorers", "achievers", "socializers" into "killer" territory.
Virtue: Alter Mann Controller Ill/Rad/Psi, Eisstahl Tanker Ice/Ice/Arctic
Justice: Lord Proton Brute EM/Elec/SM, ADAM-3 Mastermind Robot/FF/Charge
Liberty: Captain Transylvania Tanker Dark/Dark/SM
True, in my suggestion, an enemy could possibly place the attack window at time that would be problematic for some players. But this is likely to be true of any time frame for any group of players larger than a dozen or so.
I suppose the attackers' window could be a chunk of 24 hours at least 24 hours in the future. But then the Defender could too easily refine the time down to something problematic for the attacker. But it's a thought.
On the subject of refusing all attacks:
My understanding is that your base, if you have an Item, will be subject to one raid per day.
This could be a minimum or a maximum. Or both.
Also, the Devs have hinted that npc mobs can and will launch base raids.
In any case, hanging onto an Item and refusing all raid appointments will NOT be an option.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I disagree. This is the BEST system there could be for base raiding. The only thing hurt is there is no surprise.
It looks to me like you were planning on raiding a lot of small SG bases at 2am to build up the 'loot' you could take, & now thats no longer going to happen.
I like Lord_Recluse's idea a LOT, & if there was not such a system my SG would close our base from being raided, or just not build one.
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Here's an idea I like. You have to option of setting base raids to schedule or anytime. The catch is that the number of base raiders at an anytime raid can only be less than or equal to the number of base defenders online at the time. So if there's only 1 member of the SG online, only 1 attacker is allowed in the base, and a tell is sent to the defender, wherever he is that his base is being raided and to come at once, ( with a click box that will automatically teleport him to the base wherever he is.)
Doesn't matter if the raider is level 50 and the defender is level 10, that's the chance you take when you set it to anytime.
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This is a good idea, but the anytime setting should be combine with the appointment system just in case the defending base doesn't have anyone in it or tries to abuse it by placing only their strongest members to defend it. The defending team has to set the raid to unrestricted at a scheduled time within 24 hours of the first assault by the raiders in an anytime setting. If the defending team doesn't respond after 24 hours of the first assault in an anytime raid, all bets are off and the raiding team can enter unhindered. Also, there is a limit of only one raid on an SG every 24 hours so that raiders can't just abuse sieges by mounting multiple assaults on the same day. If the defending team was able to mount a suitable defense in an unrestricted battle, they're safe for another 24 hours.
In other words, Shadowbane. (essentially).
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In other words, Shadowbane. (essentially).
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Never played Shadowbane. How do the raids work there?
I liked the 6 hour window idea. It keeps people from attacking when everyone is not playing.
The problem I see with surprise raids is TFs and timed missions. Neither one is easy to go back to.
Also I think the notification system to the SG leader should be a @global message. Everyone plays alts and may not check on one for a while.
On another note, what about the SG coalitions? Can they raid/defend together?
This is taking bits and pieces of a bunch of peoples ideas and putting them together and adding a little bit of my own ideas, to give one idea of a full base raid system. Sorry I'm at work and don't have the time to go back and credit everyone who gave ideas for parts of this. Sorry again for the length
First have both raid types available, with the base owners choosing if they want scheduled raids or always available.
Scheduled raids:
If you don't have an item of power you can decline any and all raids proposed, these raids would just be for PvP fun and any potential inf/enh/xp rewards that the winning side would get(assuming there would be something like this) so there should be no reason to actually have to accept a raid if you don't want to.
If you have an item of power your base must be raidable, and a time must be negotiated. The time should be no sooner than 24 and no later than 72 hours from the raid is declared unless both parties agree otherwise. An initial offer should be made by the raiding SG say sometime between 5pm and 7pm cdt on any day within the next three. At this point the defending SG could say sure 6pm tomorrow is great, or those times don't work for us and negotiations would continue. There should be a large window on either side of the time requested, say 5 or six hours. So using the example above the window from 6cdt would be from 12noon to 12midnight. If no time can be agreed upon in the 48 hour period with windows like that the defending team would lose by default. Since sometimes there can be very valid reasons to not be able to muster anyone from the SG to defend a base raid once in a while, they shouldn't forfeit the item of power the first time around. Say for the first non-defense they would lose X% inf and X% extra enh/insp. The second time X+% of both and the third time they would forfeit the item of power. I don't think the item of power should go to the attackers however for two reasons, the attacking SG could have gotten lucky and been the third time this happened, and also to prevent groups from attacking once a day when they know the other side can't defend(as well as trying to force the defending sg to be there or the will lose the item) From my experience in ladder competitions on other games, you should be able to work out something within that time frame seeing as both sides basically "signed up" for having base raids, and in theory both sides actually want the item of power. Assuming this, the attackers and defenders should choose times that are reasonable or neither side will have the item in the end.
Non scheduled raids:
The SG looking to raid goes to the raid contact, or however it will be set up. A list pops up of all the Sg's that have their base set to any time raids that also have at least 1(or two or three?) of their members online at that time. They pick from one of those and get a way point set for teleporting or a door leading to that particular base that is say 3-5minutes to get to. At the same time the the SG getting attacked gets a pop up to the tune of "base defenses have picked up signs of intruders attempting to enter" and giving the members online a chance for a port back to the base to try and organize the defense.This would allow for raids anytime, but only while members of the sg are online, so they don't get ransacked while none of the members are playing. If the members online don't show up well... I'd rething your members. The defenders being able to port back also saves them from having have people just sit around in the base to defend all the time.
Other things... Breaks, sometimes people might get sick of being attacked all the time say 7 days you can make your base unraidable in any situation every two or three months. If there is a holiday coming up and you know people wont be able to accept challenges or you want to schedule a run of the Terra Volta TF you can do it.
Level balancing, personally I like challenges. Beating up on, or getting beat up by people far outside your level range just doesn't seem like fun. Maybe if anyone is outside of +/- 3 levels from the average level between the two parties they should be brought up or down to the +/- 3 but still with all of their powers.
What we know.
- You cannot get raided unless you have an item of power. So you can easily make it so your base cannot be raided. If you *want* to get raided, just go get an item.
- There's only a small window of a few hours that your base can be raided, and you get to set when that is.
- Only one raid attempt can be made within that time. That means you could have your buddy, raid your base each day with his 1st level healer, fail miserably, but be able to block anyone else from raiding you.
- We also know that each base will have teleporters, objects that can block phase shift and stealth, turrets, and tons of other defenses. Meaning, it could be very possible that a 10 team party of heroes could raid you at 4am, find no one, but get killed from the base defenses before getting to the item of power.
- Since bases can have teleporters, there's really no need to gaurd your base. You can do missions or whatever, and have your super computer notify you and teleport to your base to defend it on the fly. *No need for camping*
- A base raiding team of 10, might find a once empty base now filled with 40 heroes.
Now for my opinion part, I think the deck is stacked so heavily on the base defender side, that giving them notice on top of it, is just over kill. Especially if base raiders are thinking, "Well, we can either fight 40 heroes, 30 turrets, 20 End/Health sapping crystals, 50 trip mines, and 10 proximity bombs--all attacking us while we're trying to break through the 10 force walls, 20 armored doors, and naivgating through the 10 dead end decoy hallways....OR...we can just go on the mission and get our *own* item of power.
I think forcing people to notify their enemy of the attack is going to be the straw that kills all interest in base raiding.
These are just my observations, from what's been put on the boards and such.
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- Only one raid attempt can be made within that time. That means you could have your buddy, raid your base each day with his 1st level healer, fail miserably, but be able to block anyone else from raiding you.
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My understanding is that the multiple groups can make appointments to raid your base; having one group fail doesn't make the defenders inaccessible from any further attacks if they fall within the timeframe.
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- We also know that each base will have teleporters, objects that can block phase shift and stealth, turrets, and tons of other defenses. Meaning, it could be very possible that a 10 team party of heroes could raid you at 4am, find no one, but get killed from the base defenses before getting to the item of power.
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And all of those automated defenses are probably expensive. Only a few of the most powerful SGs are going to be able to afford to have enough defenses to hold off a full on assault. At best, auto-defense will have enough offense and defense to buy the defenders time to get back to the base so that they can be there to defend the item. Speaking of which...
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- Since bases can have teleporters, there's really no need to gaurd your base. You can do missions or whatever, and have your super computer notify you and teleport to your base to defend it on the fly. *No need for camping*
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My impression is that the porters won't be able to grab the characters from anywhere on the map. Rather, there will be specific spots in every zone (the trams would be ideal) that a person must go in order to return to their bases. After all, eventually the devs want to add vehicles; what good would they be if the transporters could do so much more?
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The SWG system is goofy. Once you find a base of the opposing faction, you gotta go check once per hour to see if it's vulnerable then you gotta get that info to the rest our your guild, then you gotta make sure you have all the required professions......and then theres no guarantee that the base owners will even be there.
My guild took down many a rebel base unopposed by players.
the "appointment" system is far better, imo
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Quoted for truth. My roommate's brother would mess with his roommate by refusing to log on & help with raids because he was the guild's only squad leader(?). You've gotta be hardcore to enjoy playing in that loopy format.
[image]You CAN'T post images in sigs like they say you can in the forum FAQ.jpg[/image]
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What we know.
- You cannot get raided unless you have an item of power. So you can easily make it so your base cannot be raided. If you *want* to get raided, just go get an item.
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True
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- There's only a small window of a few hours that your base can be raided, and you get to set when that is.
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True
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- Only one raid attempt can be made within that time. That means you could have your buddy, raid your base each day with his 1st level healer, fail miserably, but be able to block anyone else from raiding you.
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Sort of true. First , he's going to need a base with specific equipment in it. Second, there will probably be a hefty fee to schedule a raid (in part to discourage this). Third, there are limits based on the items of power both groups have. Fourth, you're betting he gets his raid scheduled before someone else does.
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- We also know that each base will have teleporters, objects that can block phase shift and stealth, turrets, and tons of other defenses. Meaning, it could be very possible that a 10 team party of heroes could raid you at 4am, find no one, but get killed from the base defenses before getting to the item of power.
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Only if you set your raid window for 4 AM. Personally, I wouldn't rely on defenses only to protect my base. Guilds have tried this tactic in other games ("We'll set our time for 3 AM. Nobody will raid us at that hour!") only to have it go horribly wrong.
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- Since bases can have teleporters, there's really no need to gaurd your base. You can do missions or whatever, and have your super computer notify you and teleport to your base to defend it on the fly. *No need for camping*
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Not how things are going to work.
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- A base raiding team of 10, might find a once empty base now filled with 40 heroes.
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Nope.
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Now for my opinion part, I think the deck is stacked so heavily on the base defender side, that giving them notice on top of it, is just over kill. Especially if base raiders are thinking, "Well, we can either fight 40 heroes, 30 turrets, 20 End/Health sapping crystals, 50 trip mines, and 10 proximity bombs--all attacking us while we're trying to break through the 10 force walls, 20 armored doors, and naivgating through the 10 dead end decoy hallways....OR...we can just go on the mission and get our *own* item of power.
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While it will be a challenge for the attacker, it won't be as heavily stacked as described. You can't just cram your base with defenses; there will be limits. Defenses are meant to supplement and hinder, not overwhelm and crush. Furthermore there's more than one way for the attackers to succeed at their raid, so designing just to keep them from reaching your vault won't guarantee your defense. You're going to need people spread throughout your base ready to react to other tactics.
Ultimately the goal is to make this fun -- for both sides. That means not frustrating for the defenders because they got raided without warning or have to spend all their time standing around their base "just in case" and not hopeless for the attackers because the odds are so stacked against them.
Sure, scheduling is not "real world", but there are a lot of things in games that aren't.
Geez Recluse,
I thought you were an evil villian and here you go and make all sorts of reasonable statements. Are you sure you are Lord Recluse? You aren't his Praetorian counter part pretending to be evil are you? Thanks for the post.
Oh Moonbase, here I come!
My concern is how the base system will support the SMALL supergroup.
My SG is a total of 10 guys. That's it. We're all real-life friends and we want to stay small and tight-knit. I am having serious doubts that we'll be able to compete against the other groups out there with 75 full members.
It seems that the base-raiding system is not geared for small groups or casual gamers. Lord Recluse, can you provide any comment on this?
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My concern is how the base system will support the SMALL supergroup.
My SG is a total of 10 guys. That's it. We're all real-life friends and we want to stay small and tight-knit. I am having serious doubts that we'll be able to compete against the other groups out there with 75 full members.
It seems that the base-raiding system is not geared for small groups or casual gamers. Lord Recluse, can you provide any comment on this?
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Well, your 10-man SG would need to get an item of power first, which would likely be a chore in itself. I keep foreseeing items of power largely ending up in the hands of the bigger SGs with the massive influence and members to get one and hold onto it. So your SG can probably go raiding to its heart's content, but I don't think protecting your base would often be a problem.
Hmm... How about scheduling your raid window for the same period that the servers are down for daily maintenance?
While the Devs are still working on the appointment/notification system, this is a good time to make suggestions!
This is also a good time to make (and debate) how 'surprise raids' could be implemnented without griefing.
My suggestion for raid scheduling:
Since all bases will be accessed via transporter, an enemy SG leader can schedule a raid by clicking on your base (listed on the teleporter console in his own base). When he clicks, He sets a 6-hour time window at least 24 hours in the future when the raid will happen.
A notice is sent to every member of his own SG, and to all members of the opposing SG. A particle effect representing the attackers' teleport gate "burrowing through" the defenders' defenses appears in the defenders' base. The 'welcoming room' in the defenders' base (and there must be one, defaulting to the chamber where the IoP is kept) becomes off-limits to the defenders "due to the energy flux".
If there is no response from the defenders, the gate opens at the earliest part of the announced time window. Every attacker in the 'staging room' of the attackers' base is teleported to the defenders' 'welcoming room'. The teleport effect remains in place while the raid timer is running.
The defenders can alter the actual raid time via the teleporter console in their own base. They can set it to anywhere within the attacker's 6 hour time window. They cannot change the raid time if it is already less than 6 hours away.
Heh, you should not be able to alter the floor plan of your base while a raid is scheduled. Base plans must always allow for the IoP chamber and the 'welcoming room' to be connected.
Feel free to pick this idea apart. Doing so will help the Devs see possible holes in their own ideas before they hit Test.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!