Please make an appointment to raid our base...
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2005-05-30 24:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
What about level discrepencies? If My SG has only 30's and 40's we are sitting ducks to a SG with lvl 50 players. You will need to set some weight class limitations just like the arena or you will have everything horded by the super HO L33t doods. Does not sound very fair or FUN.
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
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It's ridiculous to expect that a mob would sit helplessly in a fire. They're being hurt, after all.
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Hmm....
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Even the most deviate of chilren will stop having fun by setting small indefence insects on fire just to see them burn. I dont think that is something that would lead to much fun so i think your qoute is rather out of place, not to mention on the wrong thread.
Since the appointment system is going in I must say, on behalf of everyone who doesn't want the raid system to be something folks chuckle about because its so out of character, please make the 'appointment' to be as thickly covered in fictional sidedressing as possible.
Maybe a computer virus that is detected within the bases supercomputer that will lower the defences at 5pm the next day. Or some mystical allignments which will happen at 7.30pm tomorrow that you heard some villain group is going to take advantage of to raid your base.
Please, please, please don't make it a blatent 'we will raid your base on X day at Y time' type message that is sent to the SG leader or whatever.
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
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It's ridiculous to expect that a mob would sit helplessly in a fire. They're being hurt, after all.
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Hmm....
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Even the most deviate of chilren will stop having fun by setting small indefence insects on fire just to see them burn. I dont think that is something that would lead to much fun so i think your qoute is rather out of place, not to mention on the wrong thread.
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Not if we are to have FUN defined for us. It would be nice to have a agreed upon meaning of this thing Cryptic calls FUN.
***this is the anti-hijack police. Please step away from the topic, you have 30 seconds to comply or we WILL be forced to use lethal force***
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Since the appointment system is going in I must say, on behalf of everyone who doesn't want the raid system to be something folks chuckle about because its so out of character, please make the 'appointment' to be as thickly covered in fictional sidedressing as possible.
Maybe a computer virus that is detected within the bases supercomputer that will lower the defences at 5pm the next day. Or some mystical allignments which will happen at 7.30pm tomorrow that you heard some villain group is going to take advantage of to raid your base.
Please, please, please don't make it a blatent 'we will raid your base on X day at Y time' type message that is sent to the SG leader or whatever.
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I would love for the appointment to be "stealthed". In my case, I'd like to hear about it from predestrains. For example, a construction worker walking by saying, "Boy, I can't believe how angry SG is getting against SG!"
Actually, ideally, I'd like for AI enemies to reveal plans as you defeat them. I think that would be fun.
Wow the devs have no clue how to make PVP work for this game. So much potential that's gone to waste.
I have to disagree, they're exploring new avenues rather than recycling tried and tested methods. I praise them for trying to find new ways for PvP to work rather than kick them because they're trying to innovate.
They certainly have the knowledge and I'm curious how you came to that rather ridgid conlusion about their abilities?
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I assume a safeguard will be put in to prevent a SG from monopolizing a relic by simply NEVER being available to be raided. If these relics have any kind of benefit, a SG could just lock it away in their unraidable base.
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I'd imagine it would work by the SG setting a schedule of times they are available for raiding, over the next week, and must provide a minimum number of hours (20 seems likely) or forfeit the relic. The attacking SG then picks a time within that schedule, and both sides are notifed in a hopefully IC way to be at that base at the given time...
Personally, I kinda fancy the idea of doing/fighting off raids every now and then, but if it was unscheduled, you can forget it. I have work, and I have a social life, and both are going to take priority over CoH, and without scheduling that would almost guarantee my base being invaded while I'm not there.
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I think a 6 hour warning would be enough to be honest, rather than have something like a 24 hour notice of attack whereby the whole feeling of this being a 'raid' rather than a staged event is lost.
To be franky I don't see a problem with unannounced raid since the difference between a good supergroup and a bad supergroup is one which is able to effectively defend their bases. We now have coalition chat which means the best connected SGs will ALWAYS have people around to defend a base.
But since alot of people feel that this might turn base defending into a 'job' then clearly another option should be explored. Something that is a compromise between the spontanious and planned. Thats why I suggest a 6 hour warning which is done in such a way that it doesn't seem like an appointment and does have a sense of urgency.
Since a base raid starts with a portal opening into the base from a hostile location it would make sense that thebase defences would detect abnormal energy signitures which would altert the SG to a raid in progress. The portal effect would start small and grow more and more obvious within the base to add tension to the who raid and make it a little more cinematic. A 6 hour building up window would be an ideal solution as it allows the SG members online to organise a defence. This again means that there is a difference between a bad and a good SG, a really well organised group would have a website and forum which allows them to get out notification to people who are outside the game.
I'd say that this would be a nice compromise to ensure a decent showing at the base while also making it seem like a hostile attempt on the base rather than something done by appointment. If you start getting into 8 or even 10 hour notification then a base raid just doesn't feel urgent enough.
Frankly I'd like to see a maximum of 3 hours notification but some might still say thats too short to organise a defence.
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Nope, do the math, 6 hours isn't sufficient. If you are smart enough to figure out the time difference between the UK and the states, then I'm sure you can figure out why 6 hours isn't enough.
Needs to be 24 hours.
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From those of us with jobs: thank you!
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From those of us who've had experience with Shadowbane, this goes double.
(Shadowbane: We're going to drop a bane circle on your city and have it go off IMMEDIATELY after maintenence, which is usually somewhere around 3AM.... No one in our guild has jobs/lives, so we'll all be there. What? Your guys can't show up to defend at that ungodly hour? Boohoo, guess we win!)
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
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Think you could tell Statesman that? 
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Regarding the stealth nerf to Burn and Rain powers
From: Statesman
I'm afraid there's not much to comment on.
It's ridiculous to expect that a mob would sit helplessly in a fire. They're being hurt, after all.
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...it was fun to drop a patch of fire on the ground and stand there autofiring taunt while you just watched them slowly burn to death?
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Scheduling raids is a good solution and I think it will actually get more people interested and participating in base raids. Someone mentioned the SWG system and base raids were one of the biggest griefing tools employed. Even their "secret" daily vulnerability did not work well. People became slaves to vulnerability times of their bases and the bases of their enemies.
If a player can set vulnerability, what actually motivates them NOT to set it at 3:00 AM to prevent raids? If it is set arbitrarily by the game, what will players do when they find their base is vulnerable from 10:00 PM - 1:00 AM daily and they have a work day that starts at 7:00 AM every morning? Players will not be doing Task Forces during vulnerability. If that's daily, what a pain that's going to be to limit your SG members from doing the Eden Trial or a respec trial or the Hess TF because they have to be on hand for a "possible unscheduled" base raid. I definitely don't want to be on a team in the TV reactor when the tank and controller says "sorry, gotta run. getting raided".
If you view the point of raid as taking someone's stuff with as little effort as possible, then yes -- scheduling runs counter to that. But if you view a raid as a way to get in some large scale PvP, it is better to make sure both teams are on the field. The SWG play style of logging in and sitting around in one place -- forgoing any other game activity -- just because of a "possible" base raid was not a lot of fun.
Base raids = glorified Arenas. Wooopie. How exactly is this going to be fun?
Honestly. having to find and schedule an enemy to raid your supergroup's base? Thats about as dull in concept as having a superhero who's superpowers are based on tax returns. Captain IRS is filing a 1040 WATCH OUT!
The Arena's are not fun b/c its kill the squishy, thats all base raids will end up being too.. if its a click the glowie to win situation someone will phase shift, run to it unphase, click it as he gets ganked by those guarding it and it'll be all over.
w00t Radio
....you honestly think they haven't considered that and are working on a counter if one isn't already in place?
In fact, I seem to clearly recall them saying you won't be able to take the artifact/whatever while phased.
Anyway, if base raids don't interest you...don't participate. Duh.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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To be fun, a base raid has to feel exciting -- and fair. That means fair to both sides.
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Does that mean that coalition raids would be possible, so that a few small groups could ally to take on a bigger group's base or vice-versa: A coalition alliance to defend a small base from a big group's attack?
glad that was taken into consideration. DAoC had many alarm clock raids on the weekend as attacking in primetime was too much to deal with so only time you could take something was at 4am and soon it was the standard and everyone was frustrated as then you couldn't keep anything either.
but yes its a fine line to walk for realism and fun
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Power levels, so imagine you have Uber PVP SG 'L33T L00T D00DS!' and you have a RP Based Villian Group, now the PVP Hamidon Farmers are going have all +3 HOs and player killing optimised builds, the others are going to have interesting concepts and maybe a few of whatever the CoV equivilent of HOs turns out to be. Who do you think is going to win?
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Irrelevant, because the roleplaying villains wouldn't consent to the raid, nor propose one to the l00T l00zRz. Instead, like-minded players would be free to associate as they wish.
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The Arena's are not fun b/c its kill the squishy, thats all base raids will end up being too.. if its a click the glowie to win situation someone will phase shift, run to it unphase, click it as he gets ganked by those guarding it and it'll be all over.
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I get the feeling that you've already made your mind up and aren't going to listen to reason. But here it goes anyway....
First of all a baseraid isn't won by who killed the most of the other team. Thats not it at all. Its won by who captured the IoP within the timelimit of the raid. Phase shifting through and clicking on a glowie won't happen because they are protected by a forcefield that needs to be smashed down. That means more than one person needs to be there and tangible in order to bring it down.
The clicky is normal so being interupped by damage will stop you from capturing it.
That means tactics are needed by both sides, the defenders need to build up a solid defence to protect the IoP and frankly they have the easiest time compared to the raiders since the defenders can respawn within the base if they have hospital facilities. The raiders need to break apart that defences so its more than just 'kill the squishie' because it'll be possible for a single tanker to guard the IoP and simply hit anyone who tries to click on it. Thus tactics are essential as is teamwork.
Secondly. The bases can have automated defences and NPCs, that means battles are different than the arena from that side as well.
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If a player can set vulnerability, what actually motivates them NOT to set it at 3:00 AM to prevent raids?
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Possibly instead of making up a given number of hours, require users to make up a number of points/week, with peak hours counting for 2 points, and daft hours of the night counting for 0.5 points.
This is a particular issue for my SG, as we're a group of Europeans playing on the US servers. While there's a few insomniacs prepared to be online at US peak time, it's going to be interesting whatever happens.
Also, making yourself vulnerable at 3am has downsides; chances are less of your SG will be able to make it, and there's always going to be different time zone/insomniac players who can make it...
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
The goal of base raiding is to make it an event, something both sides can look forward to, strategize for, and participate in. Unannounced raids might be "realistic" (and I use quotes here because we are talking about a comic book) but they sure aren't much fun for the defenders. If I have to be on line all the time, am forced to bail missions because I have to go defend my base, or find someone trashed our base at 11 AM just because my SG has to deal with real-life things like jobs and work, well that is not fun.
To be fun, a base raid has to feel exciting -- and fair. That means fair to both sides. That means giving both SG's notice so both groups can organize their members, make arrangements to be online and develop plans. Scheduling will actually strengthen SG's -- it gives them more purpose, more "We need to be online at this time."
We are also looking at some other options for "instant raids" for pick up play, but again finding ways to keep things from being a no-fun grief fest.
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I'm beginning to doubt your qualifications as a villain. First your staff was extremely nice and helpful at E3 and now this...compassion for the players. It's disgusting.
Someone else mentioned this, and I do wonder about it myself...
Other then keeping the IoP, what's in it for the defenders if they win? Will the IoP be sooooo good, that just keeping it is enough of a reward vs the risk being raided?
The IoP can't be all that amazing, I wouldn't think, or else it would mean a serrious departure from the idea of no loot. My guess based on just wild speculation, would be that the various IoP's would be on the same lvl as a accolade... +5% hp's, +10 points of end, ect...
But something of that limited power doesn't seem worth the risk of debt you might get by being defeated in a base raid. Assuming that you get debt in villian vs hero fights.
So again, if my SG gets a IoP, which means our base can be raided... What's the reward for fending off a base attack?
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Tower Raids in AO had this problem. Was on countless teams that broke up because 1 or more members had to run off to defend their towers. I rather like this idea. And if it dosnt seem "realistic" you can pretend, say if your the villian base, that you heard threw the underworld grapevine that the heroes are planning to attack, so you have a chance to get ready, or vise versa.
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Tower raids in AO were so unfair it wasn't even funny. If you happen to be in a small guild, and not one of "THE" guilds you were pretty much screwed. I was in a guild that had, oh I dunno, maybe 60-70 folks and we could barely hold on to our field. People get to know when your guild plays, how many people you have, what levels there are, etc, and they work around it. The appointment system is atleast fair to those who can't BE there. Now the question will be this: Will this be like AO in that if you have a small guild, you might as well not even bother?
As an ex-DAoC player this makes me really happy! Nothing got more boring then checking the Herald in the morning only to find someone had executed a late night/early morning raid.
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One of the first rules of game design is that when realism conflicts with fun, fun wins.
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It's ridiculous to expect that a mob would sit helplessly in a fire. They're being hurt, after all.
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Hmm....
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One deals with the importance of fun over realism, the other deals with realism. If its no longer fun to play a burn tanker, they would make a change to create reasons for a person to be slowly burned alive. This illustrates the fun vs realism point first referenced. I notice that villains are still content to be roasted alive if properly taunted.