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For one, the point when players get DO's. The first lvls of PvP will ahve distinct advantages given to players who have high lvl toons and loaded up their toons w/ Complete sets of DO's including the non power 10 enhances.
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An advantage, certainly, but hardly comparable to the advantage that HOs represent. They can buff up to three aspects of a power at once. Moreover, characters at that level are much more limited by the number of slots they have.
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Then for sure the lvl 22 crowd. Some players will have complete sets of SO's while new players to the game - quite possibly will not. This imbalance as you don't see it will go on for a few more lvls after that.
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It is an imbalance, it's just not anything like as bad as the HO one, and it's a lot easier to fix. With influence being gambled on games, a good player only has to win a few contests and they'll be able to afford all the DOs or SOs they need.
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What enemy have u faced so far in the game told you what all it's attributes were buffed up to?
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Every single enemy I've faced in the game has let me know what I was letting myself in for, simply by conning a given colour. If I'd attacked a white mob that suddenly proved to have +300% accuracy and +300% damage, I'd have been pretty surprised.
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Well , maybe u don't have the time to play any other char than your primary. But the game gives u 8 slots per server to hold chars. You aren't forced into anything w/ PvP.
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This isn't about being forced in, it's about being kept out.
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Why should battles in pvp stay the same from lvl's 1-50?
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The battles don't stay the same; the level of the enemies relative to your own level does.
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I wouldn't care, this point is irrelevant.
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No, it's about being able to choose your level of risk before you make an investment of time. Or, for that matter, Inf. (I like gambling.)
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You also gave me a thought that i'm suprised you missed out on being the first to mention. What if the game calculated the odds of you winning a match w/out telling each other what they have slotted and how. The devs could come up w/ a system to give up odds on your chances of winning against another player. Who's to say they haven't already done that......
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.... oooh, interesting.
I think gambling will have to be restricted to the actual participants. Put all your Inf into a pot, winner takes all.
Quotes are fun.
Curveball..
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Quotes are fun.
Curveball..
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I'm wearing boots of escaping!
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If anyone can explain why the 45-50 door in the Arena should have a big blob of jello in front of it while no other door does, I'll be very impressed.
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Well, 40+ Blobs to be precise. If it was just 1 blob I could live with it.
When Mythic shipped Trials of Atlantis they had this idea that people would enjoy the raids and artifacts *while* still enjoying Camelot's PvP. But, players farmed the raids and farmed the artifacts and PvP basically died while this was going on. No one wanted to enter PvP without the goods cause you *might* run into someone who had farmed the goods.
Players who couldn't/wouldn't farm mostly quit the game. Or limited themselved to the Battleground (a smaller, fixed lower level arena). The battleground became viewed as the only 'pure' PvP because there were very few ways to farm an advantage at those levels - sound familiar?
Reminds me of an explanation I heard about why trees are tall. It's to get sunlight, but if they could all agree to stay shrubs then everyone would get light and no one would have to waste all that energy growing a trunk. But its too risky trusting your neighbor - you don't want to discover you are the only shrub in a forest of trees...
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... except in the 45-50 PvP arena, where the characters are technically supposed to be on an equal footing because of their level, but in PRACTICE are going to be wildly disparate in their abilities.
The difference between levels 15-44 and 45-50 is that in the former, you are automatically on an even footing, but in the latter, you will have to go kill a blob a lot if you want a *chance* of being on an even footing.
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You're assumptions are wrong. you have psychic attacks. Do you know the huge advantage you already have, built into the game, over INV tankers/scrappers of all level ranges? No amount of HO's/Accolades/Skill will compensate for this.
Please show me where you've posted about getting this example changed to 'fair and balanced' for PvP.
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I just want to say though, that just because You think the raid isn't fun doesn't mean that its not fun.
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Right, what you think is fun and what I think is fun ain't the same. Thats what we've been trying to point out.
Once you admit (40+!) Raids are fun for some but not everyone how do you justify tying PvP achievement to it? Why do you bank CoV's success on it?
HOs are gonna be "killer" in PvP (statesman said so). Doing lots of raids to get lots HOs is fun for some but not for everyone (if i believe you find them fun you should be able to believe i don't).
Put it together and what do you get: A bunch of folks forced into doing something they don't find fun so they can be "killer" in PvP.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Same old MMO problem.
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One of my points exactly. I started a thread on Justice asking what a tank does, thats my only 50 right now. Basically they are telling me to taunt the core. Let me completely understand this...for two hours all I do is taunt?
I could set taunt to auto and go to work..... Yeh taunting for two hours in a slide show sounds like edge of your seat fun!! I'm really not going to go on like I have b4, I already decided to NOT participate in PvP.
My question is how often am I going to get a "taunt" from a Hami Farming Power Leveler challenging me to PvP. What is his reply going to be when I say I dont do PvP, or at least I don't do it with hami farmers. Are they going to say..."Very well, thats your option not to, good day to you." I think it will be more infused with expletives and name calling. But the PLers haven't EARNED the right to fight me in PvP, and I'm definitely NOT going to taunt Hamidon for 70 hours to fully slot my tank either. Neither sound fun to me, what's going to be in Issue 5? Flame On!....
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You're assumptions are wrong. you have psychic attacks. Do you know the huge advantage you already have, built into the game, over INV tankers/scrappers of all level ranges? No amount of HO's/Accolades/Skill will compensate for this.
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Tons of work has already been done to get the classes balanced for PvP. Some powers are being changed to make them balanced for PvP. Of *course* some classes have an edge over others IN CERTAIN AREAS - but *every* class has its advantages and its weaknesses. That's part of its design.
HOs are nothing but an advantage. Unlike my psychic attacks, which are inherently balanced (I can run to a target faster than my Mental Blast can, my Immob is unreliable, my stuns are low-mag and as a Def I have fewer hit points than a tank anyway), they have no compensating downside.
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... except in the 45-50 PvP arena, where the characters are technically supposed to be on an equal footing because of their level, but in PRACTICE are going to be wildly disparate in their abilities.
The difference between levels 15-44 and 45-50 is that in the former, you are automatically on an even footing, but in the latter, you will have to go kill a blob a lot if you want a *chance* of being on an even footing.
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You're assumptions are wrong. you have psychic attacks. Do you know the huge advantage you already have, built into the game, over INV tankers/scrappers of all level ranges? No amount of HO's/Accolades/Skill will compensate for this.
Please show me where you've posted about getting this example changed to 'fair and balanced' for PvP.
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Nobody says every build has to be viable against every possible situation. All strategies should have counterstrategies. All tactics should be beatable. All powers should have weaknessess. Psy is the Inv weakness.
Invulnerability and Psy is a weakness that was planned for all stages of the game and is already part of the balance. Without Psy vulnerability, the rest of the Inv powers would have to be adjusted. Just like Psy doesn't have Aim, which is balanced by other factors, among them lack of vulnerability.
HO's have no balance. HO's aren't intended to be balanced with any part of the game. They're intended to be uberloot.
You don't see the difference? Really? You don't?
So finally after scores of pages we at long last come full circle back to my original, my final, my virtually unassailable arguement.
Highlighted for effect.
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The whole point is to increase Arena participation by increasing the number of options. I want you to have the choice of facing me with or without your loot. Simple. If you don't want to fight me without your loot, then *walk away*.
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This is the point they miss - one way or another the no-HO heroes will avoid the full-HO heroes. Either by using an Option (if added) or by limiting/skipping PvP (if an option isn't added).
What we're really arguing over is the PvP participation of the players who can't/won't farm Hami. Will we be given in-game tools to avoid the Cleens out there, or will we avoid *everyone* because that was the only *good* option left.
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Thats it.
Thats the one everyone seems so desperate to duck and avoid.
Thats the one that all the "I wannas" in the world have to do deal with.
You can argue all the other stuff that you want. How much work, how much skill whatever turns your crank. It does not matter at all.
The only thing that matters is what the majority of people will do and how much Cryptic cares.
I submit that the HOs will be a massive advantage in PvP.
I submit that most people will not farm Hamidon under any circumstances.
I also submit that most people will not abide excessively loosing to any one reason.
Finally I submit that it is in the best interest, of CoH, Cryptic, and the players to have a healthy heavily used PvP system.
From this I conclude the following.[*] Players will opt out of getting decimated by HOs one way or the other[*] If the only way out is to avoid PvP then it shall be so.[*] If the majority of players avoid PvP. Then PvP is an effective failure.[*] The failure of PvP will be bad for CoH.
I honestly believe that most players will not farm the Hamidon and nothing will convice them to do so. I also believe that the success of PvP, and perhaps a large part of CoH, will depend on enticing as many people as possible into parcipating. People will not play PvP only to loose so Hamidon enchancers are not just a killer in PvP but will be a killer TO PvP.
I strongly suspect that CoH stands on the backs of a dedicated casual base and pushing back skills to issue 5 left a bad taste in their mouths, now to strike them in the face with issue 4 maybe more than many of them can bare.
My sole stake in this disccusion is to illuminate for Statesman and the Devs what I think is a very serious issue and one I sincerely believe will prove to be a problem. It is my hope the Devs will make an informed choice in this matter and not simple choose the expiedent and potentially detremental choice of satifying the "hardcore players" at the expense of the majority.
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Hmm I dont think its a problem. Now if you don't like fighting Hami, don't do it.
It may mean that some (I think a much smaller percentage than popularly thought) will beat you in PVP. So What? If you get beaten by that much and know someone is using them, don't compete against him again. The end problem solved.
I think that a lot of small guilds of Non-HamiOs will form, and you can compete with them. In fact I think that if nothing is done to change the current situation with HamiO's in the arena. People will very quickly figure it out for them selves. Someone can lie about not having HamiOs. But he can only do it once or twice before everyone knows who he is. Especialy now that we can all see his global handle, (he wont be able to try with different toons.)
For the most part, people will be honest about it and we'll be able to solve these issues easily I think.
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I suspect this was the Devs intial impression of how thing would work as well. However I think in both cases this is naive. People take the path of least resistance and if a requirement to play in PvP is to keep track of all the level 50s on your server I am thinking the easiest way is to just forget that noise.
I think there will be ALOT of SG internal PvP because thats a no hassle enviroment the Sg will set the ground rules, however for PvP to be successful it will need to be much more robust than this.
Finally speaking to how much of an edge HOs give in PvP.
I have it as second hand information, so take with salt, that a fully HOed regen scrapper can heal from 1hp to full health in less than 3 seconds. I am guessing that is an insurmountable edge in singles competition and in a group fight this would most likely neccesiate a containment rather than defeat strategy.
Seriously can even the most powerful HOed blaster output 200% of a scrappers health in under 3 seconds? Assuming that they could put out that much damage can they simultaneosly overcome reintegration and dull pain?
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Giving people the opportunity to get HOs from other avenues sounds like a great idea, until you actually do the math on them. If nothing else, defense based defenses (SR, Ice Armor, Force Fields, Fortitude, Weave, some of the others) become worthless in a "everybody has HOs" arena. SR isn't entirely so, but a fully six slotted defense HO SR scrapper can only get to the point where going up against a fully slotted Dmg/Acc blaster has an effective 25% defense (IIRC, the numbers are further up the thread) and the Ice Armor tanker is only going to be able to get the defense he needs if he can get about 30 enemies to stand right next to each other and hits Energy Absorption plus runs six slotted toggles. IF that discrepancy was fixed, then HOs from alternate sources might make for an interesting idea, albeit a massive time sink. But, hey, there's nothing else to do with the 50s but play PvP or go raid Hami, as has been pointed out.
I don't know what the balancing point would be then, tho. Resistance based defenses become a LOT better with HOs, as there's an artificial cap. Until sonics go in, there's no point in adding extra resistance past that, so you can get away with a lot fewer slots in your powers, and/or a couple fewer powers. The current favorite for Invuln tankers (6 slot Unyielding, 1 slot TI, 1 slot RPD, 6 slot REl, 6 slot REn for 90% across the board) could easily turn into (6 slot Unyielding, 3 slot REl, 3 slot REn, 6 slot RP) means a savings of one slot AND one less toggle to run. Another option would be to remove RPD and run TI, which means higher energy consumption but 6 total saved slots. So do you crank up defenses, so that you have to slot less? Or make defensive enhancements be more powerful, meaning that everything but 6 slotted Acc/Dmg becomes a cakewalk with the current number of slots in a power? Or do you add some arcane math that makes it so that once you're above the amount of defense that would be required to take an unenhanced attack to 5%, your defense amount is doubled? That's confusing just writing it, the math or actually doing it would be doubly so, and still might not address the inequality. Or how about an accuracy cap of 2 times the unenhanced ability?
Until the defense issue is addressed, adding more HOs to the arena doesn't seem the way to go.
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Why not cap accuracy? Or even reduce the effect of accuracy enhancements against heroes. My guess is that they're going to play with this a lot before they release it on live. Anything that happens on test is going to be used by the devs to try and clean it up and make it a little more even. So I say, bring your SR scrappers and Ice tankers to test, get your butt whooped (with only a 5% chance of getting missed)
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Why not cap accuracy? Or even reduce the effect of accuracy enhancements against heroes. My guess is that they're going to play with this a lot before they release it on live. Anything that happens on test is going to be used by the devs to try and clean it up and make it a little more even. So I say, bring your SR scrappers and Ice tankers to test, get your butt whooped (with only a 5% chance of getting missed)
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I would, but my main's a Fire/Ice tanker. I'm sure he'll have enough of his own little handicaps, being built as a PvE monster, not PvP. Should still be fun to play, tho. I've pretty much avoided the defense based powersets like the plague.
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Again, it's a ridiculous time scale versus reasonable ones. People have no problem getting beaten by someone who spends their time practicing SKILLS. HamiO's are ITEMS. We hope to have the devs see the light on this one. MMO vets such as myself have seen them break the routine MMO mold many times before so we are holding out hope.
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If you want a level playing field for PvP, an MMORPG is not the place to find it. I suggest you go over and find some Quake 3 Arena, or perhaps UT2K4.
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I would like to point out that Quake, Battlefield:blah or starcraft have immense player bases and continue to be played for a long long time.
On the flip side nearly every MMORPG has a PvP that is played by less than 20% of their entire player base.
Gee I wonder which one of those is doing things the right way and which is doing things the wrong way....
To me that says that there is something far more successful in FPS PvP then MMORPG PvP it also say that PvP with out loot, in and of itself can be a very effective endgame.
So it is dangerous to make suggestions about FPS and RTSs. When in my opinion we should all be asking why are they so successful and why is PvP in every MMORPG so unsuccessful. At the very least it not a reason to be looking at past MMOs for "helpful" tips on what makes good PvP.
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I would, but my main's a Fire/Ice tanker. I'm sure he'll have enough of his own little handicaps, being built as a PvE monster, not PvP. Should still be fun to play, tho. I've pretty much avoided the defense based powersets like the plague.
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Well then you should help demonstrate on test why acc needs to be reduced for fully slotted HO'ers. If you live longer than an Ice tanker while taking just as much agro from the other team, then acc has serious issues, if not, then you've proven your previous post wrong and we can all celebrate that PvP is a little more balanced than previously thought.
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
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Wow this is a cool feature I recommend it to everyone. 
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I would like to point out that Quake, Battlefield:blah or starcraft have immense player bases and continue to be played for a long long time.
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Hehe I still log into AvP2 every once in a while and pwn a server or twelve =D.
Can you imagine logging into say, DAOC after a year or two of not playing and realizing there would be whole PVP and other parts of the game you would never even see just because you didn't keep up and do your farming like a good little MMO [censored]?
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I would like to point out that Quake, Battlefield:blah or starcraft have immense player bases and continue to be played for a long long time.
On the flip side nearly every MMORPG has a PvP that is played by less than 20% of their entire player base.
Gee I wonder which one of those is doing things the right way and which is doing things the wrong way....
To me that says that there is something far more successful in FPS PvP then MMORPG PvP it also say that PvP with out loot, in and of itself can be a very effective endgame.
So it is dangerous to make suggestions about FPS and RTSs. When in my opinion we should all be asking why are they so successful and why is PvP in every MMORPG so unsuccessful. At the very least it not a reason to be looking at past MMOs for "helpful" tips on what makes good PvP.
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I'll be the first to point out that those games by thier very nature are very competitive. Wheras MMO environments tend to foster more cooperative roles. PvP in an FPS is hardly comperable to PvP in an MMO just by the fact that the games were designed almost exclusively for that purpose. There are exceptions such as Metroid Prime, but even it's sequel has PvP now (nobody plays that PvP much... maybe because the story mode is actually fulfilling unlike most FPS games). There are exceptions to the minimal PvP in MMO's too, such as Guild Wars which is almost exclusively PvP by design.
What I'm trying to say is that MMO's have about 20% (by your numbers) PvP and FPS games have about 75% PvP because of game design. When a game is designed for co-op play, no matter the game type, that's what is most used. When a game is designed for PvP... guess what... that's what you get.
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What is his reply going to be when I say I dont do PvP, or at least I don't do it with hami farmers. Are they going to say..."Very well, thats your option not to, good day to you." I think it will be more infused with expletives and name calling.
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In order to back up your arguements, u shouldn't overlook the fact that if a player used explicatives and derogetory language that was deemed excessive by the GM's. That player could get suspended or kicked from the game. So here's one more worry debunked.
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What I'm trying to say is that MMO's have about 20% (by your numbers) PvP and FPS games have about 75% PvP because of game design. When a game is designed for co-op play, no matter the game type, that's what is most used. When a game is designed for PvP... guess what... that's what you get.
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To quible with you 
:
Battlefield:blah blahs, Starfleet command and many other are dedicated to the team effort.
Also FPS get about 2million+ players where as SWG PvP would have had 66,000 at it's height. That's an awfully large difference paying to play would be more likley factor.
Regardless FPS is simply more successful why? and what can be drafted into serving MMOs. Base raid style play is just one supremely succesful idea that FPS may have to offer. So I say stop looking to old MMRPGs and look to other MMOs.
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What is his reply going to be when I say I dont do PvP, or at least I don't do it with hami farmers. Are they going to say..."Very well, thats your option not to, good day to you." I think it will be more infused with expletives and name calling.
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In order to back up your arguements, u shouldn't overlook the fact that if a player used explicatives and derogetory language that was deemed execssive by the GM's. That player could get suspended or kicked from the game. So here's one more worry debunked.
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Allow me to un-debunk the concern.
I shall begin with a quote, "Deemed Excessive".
In other words you can STILL hurl expletives and name call people who refuse to give your HO MAXED out t3h ub3r h3r0 build easy wins, as long as you don't go overboard.
So, presto! Concern still vaild.
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To quible with you :
Battlefield:blah blahs, Starfleet command and many other are dedicated to the team effort.
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First off, those games are team vs team, not co-op. Co-op is everyone on the same side.
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Also FPS get about 2million+ players where as SWG PvP would have had 66,000 at it's height. That's an awfully large difference paying to play would be more likley factor.
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And I never said it wasn't a factor. I'd say it's a very small one though. FPS games by their very design are competitive. They are more like sports games than like RPGs.
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Regardless FPS is simply more successful why? and what can be drafted into serving MMOs. Base raid style play is just one supremely succesful idea that FPS may have to offer. So I say stop looking to old MMRPGs and look to other MMOs.
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Oh, you mean like in SWG? I thought you said they were unsuccessful in PvP.
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now the 0 enhancement idea is the one for me that is the no brainer for people afraid of getting clobbered by the HO crowds. THis has to be the one idea that beats all proposed on the lets nerf everyone stronger than me point of view.
THen it's not about you min/maxing better than someone else. A person who doesn't know how to slot properly has just an even field to play w/ the people who know how to slot effectively. In essence this not only equalizes the uber leet players w/ fully decked out toons w/ HO's - AND - makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.
This could even make a 2 class system. One free for all, no holds barred fighting w/ enhancements. The other can be , the ultimate handicap fighting class.
Both can easily have their own tournaments, and everyone can play in both tournaments or just one of the tournaments if they want.
And noone has to have their enhancements turned into something they aren't.
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LOL...nice sarcasm, dude! You managed to slip a lot of insults in toward those who don't have the HO's while you were at it.
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now the 0 enhancement idea is the one for me that is the no brainer for people afraid of getting clobbered by the HO crowds. THis has to be the one idea that beats all proposed on the lets nerf everyone stronger than me point of view.
THen it's not about you min/maxing better than someone else. A person who doesn't know how to slot properly has just an even field to play w/ the people who know how to slot effectively. In essence this not only equalizes the uber leet players w/ fully decked out toons w/ HO's - AND - makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.
This could even make a 2 class system. One free for all, no holds barred fighting w/ enhancements. The other can be , the ultimate handicap fighting class.
Both can easily have their own tournaments, and everyone can play in both tournaments or just one of the tournaments if they want.
And noone has to have their enhancements turned into something they aren't.
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LOL...nice sarcasm, dude! You managed to slip a lot of insults in toward those who don't have the HO's while you were at it.
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Not so sure he was being sarcastic, and I'm pretty sure he was insulting both sides of the arguement...
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makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.
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That line is what makes me think that.
If you pro-HO folks are thinking an MMO cannot have good PvP participation you are wrong. DAoC had it but then lost it.
What changed? They added raiding for uber loot and raiding for uber abilities. It became too much work for most players to become PvP ready, and the idea of bringing up an alt (and going through it again) turned your stomach.
Deja Vu...
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So by having HO's for the top 6 lvls, PvP becomes totally unplayable for you since all you have is one toon, and that toon happens to be a lvl 45+?
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Not 'totally unplayable', just totally unlike the other 44 levels in terms of balance. From levels 15-44, you can go up against an opponent of levels 15-44 and expect a fair fight, because it's built into the system. From 45 onwards, you could be fighting someone who was your approximate equal, or you could be fighting someone who had bought 40 HOs off fricking Ebay. That integral balance goes straight out of the window.
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Here you ware wrong because in the game there are many points where there will be distinct advantages given to players who spend more time playing than others. For one, the point when players get DO's. The first lvls of PvP will ahve distinct advantages given to players who have high lvl toons and loaded up their toons w/ Complete sets of DO's including the non power 10 enhances. From the late teens, to early 20's , the very same thing, including some hero's at lvl 20 who have all DO's w/ quite a few SO's from trials run over and over again as well as handme downs from sg mates quite possibly. We can't tell for sure all the social dynamics that can play out on this one. Then for sure the lvl 22 crowd. Some players will have complete sets of SO's while new players to the game - quite possibly will not. This imbalance as you don't see it will go on for a few more lvls after that.
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You see, we wouldn't be emphasising fairness and balance if the system wasn't already fair and balanced everywhere but the last five levels. For some reason, after level 45, it all goes to hell. So, we need some way to opt out of the whole HO mess, either by being able to see when our opponents have them, or turn them off and on.
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What enemy have u faced so far in the game told you what all it's attributes were buffed up to? Does hamidon have a screen to show you what powers he has? Does hamidon tell you what kind of enhances he uses?
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I only have limited time to play in the day. I don't have time to waste on fights where the odds are stacked against me from the start, or where I can't see the odds in the first place. Sure, I might feel like a challenge sometimes, but if I'm going to make time to play in the Arena, I'd like to choose my level of risk. Up to level 44, the game takes care of that automatically. 45 and upwards, all bets are off.
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Well , maybe u don't have the time to play any other char than your primary. But the game gives u 8 slots per server to hold chars. You aren't forced into anything w/ PvP. And you are still ignoring the fact that in the game already we have differences in bad guys and lvl ranges. At 25, they have access to new powers they didn't before. By 40, you run into many enemies that tactics at lvl 35 no longer work. The bad guys get harder. Why should battles in pvp stay the same from lvl's 1-50?
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Put it this way: how would you feel if someone else got to choose your reputation in PvE, and could determine how tough the enemies you faced would be, without you knowing?
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I wouldn't care, this point is irrelevant.
You also gave me a thought that i'm suprised you missed out on being the first to mention. What if the game calculated the odds of you winning a match w/out telling each other what they have slotted and how. The devs could come up w/ a system to give up odds on your chances of winning against another player. Who's to say they haven't already done that......