WallyWest

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What is his reply going to be when I say I dont do PvP, or at least I don't do it with hami farmers. Are they going to say..."Very well, thats your option not to, good day to you." I think it will be more infused with expletives and name calling.

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In order to back up your arguements, u shouldn't overlook the fact that if a player used explicatives and derogetory language that was deemed execssive by the GM's. That player could get suspended or kicked from the game. So here's one more worry debunked.

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Allow me to un-debunk the concern.

I shall begin with a quote, "Deemed Excessive".

In other words you can STILL hurl expletives and name call people who refuse to give your HO MAXED out t3h ub3r h3r0 build easy wins, as long as you don't go overboard.

So, presto! Concern still vaild.

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those that dislike HOs and the Hamidon raid really don't know that much about it. Not digging for flames or trolling but its a fact that seems very evident by most that are posting.

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Actually, if you read very closely, the majority of the voices are not complaining about HO's or raids per se. They are concerns about how the HO's affect the 45+ PvP game.

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Hamidon and the enhancements have been in the game since release. This has been no attempt by the devs to change the game or how things work.

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Hmm...why is there a concern now?

Because of PvP.

So, it's not an argument about HO's and raiding. It's about how HO's affect PvP.

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That has nothing to do with the fact that some of the people who have been involved in the Hamidon raids are insanely good at this game and have the knowledge of thier specific build that will allow them to trash just about any takers that approach them in the arena... even if they couldn't use thier HO's.

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No question there, and I agree with you. In fact, I think you agreed with me too. I've never tried to negate the prowess of raid orgainizers/Hamidon beaters. Nor have you tried to negate the skills of those who haven't.

The only point is that the statement which is at the center of this current discussion does, unfortunately, negate the effects of those that haven't. (blah blah...see above for examples)

By your last reponse, I can tell you and I both have the same stance about the entire situtation overall. (regarding "skill". HO's in the arena is something that I swore I'm going to lay off) And while I do not find fault in much of what you said, I don't think it is fair for you to say that I am "twisting" anything around.

I may have drawn conclusions, misinterpreted, correctly assumed, etc, but I really do not think that my intention was to corrput the poster's words.

I was merely seeking validation for all the countless hours that non-Hamidon defeaters should have, by placing those that do fit in the same category as well.

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...EXACTLY! You are correct. Those who spent the time to figure out how to beat Hamidon legitimately, or who have the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game. Combine that with the equipment advantage, and you've got a very tough opponent, even if you DO have Hamihancers.

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I may be a little bit confused, but, it may seem, perhaps, that, based on that assumption, we're judging skill in the ENTIRE GAME OF "CITY OF HEROES" purely on the basis of whether or not you've beaten Hamidon?

I'm sure that there are those who have raided Hamidon who will say that they know people who haven't raided Hamidon that are just as skilled, maybe even beter than they are.

I don't like to think that defeating Hamidon is the *only* measuring stick of skill in the game.

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I think you missed one specific word that he used, I'll just make it a little more obvious for you

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Yes, the word "often" was used. I never said that it wasn't. I made my point with that in mind.

Yet, the point was somehow misunderstood. That's ok, it happens. I guess, (in your very diplomatic words), "I'll just make it a little more obvious for you."

The point was that successfully raiding Hamidon was the measuring stick that is used to determine whether or not a player was "one of the most skilled".

By saying, "often", we are taking all the "high skilled players" and essentially cutting out anyone who does not beat Hamidon.

For example, let's just say that there are 100 "most skilled players". And say that in out of those 100, fifty have done the raid.

Now, this is not "often". So at this point, we either lie, and say that there are 90 of the 100 who, by nature of defeating Hamidon who are the most skilled, or...

We change the number of the number of "high skilled players" to 60. 50 being Hamidon-beaters, 10 being non. There. Now we are at "often". And we just dicounted 40 users.

However, as I am sure that those who have raided Hamidon will attest, that they know many people who are just as skilled, or even more skilled that they are who have not raided Hamidon.

I'm going to throw out a notion.

What if...what if...the most skilled players ALSO choose not to raid Hamidon, but raise more alts, or help others, wait for Issue Four, knit a sweater, etc.

I'm am sure that those who do not raid Hamidon are just as good as those that do.

Notice, I did not take anything away from the Hamidon raiders. I did not discount their skill.

However, saying that
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"the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game."

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takes away from ALL the other players who are just as good, if not, better.

Again, let me make it "obvious" to you one more time, so that I am not misunderstood.


what if...the most skilled players ALSO choose not to raid Hamidon

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You guys with this "skilled" arguement are killing me here, have you played PvP in other MMOs?

Yes skill DOES have a good deal to do with it BUT so do the "behind the scenes" numbers. Also people making the "skilled" arguement seem to forget that some skilled PvPers are going to ALSO be the ones who have fully-slotted HOs. Hell the skileld PvPers are going to be MORE LIKELY to put in the time it takes to get all those HOs because they are competitive.

Not to mention, in an MMO where numbers play a big part in fighting mechanics, if one guy has especially more powerful "equipment" than the other he has to suck pretty bad to lose to someone with much crapper "equipment."

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EXACTLY! You are correct. Those who spent the time to figure out how to beat Hamidon legitimately, or who have the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game. Combine that with the equipment advantage, and you've got a very tough opponent, even if you DO have Hamihancers.

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I may be a little bit confused, but, it may seem, perhaps, that, based on that assumption, we're judging skill in the ENTIRE GAME OF "CITY OF HEROES" purely on the basis of whether or not you've beaten Hamidon?

I'm sure that there are those who have raided Hamidon who will say that they know people who haven't raided Hamidon that are just as skilled, maybe even beter than they are.

I don't like to think that defeating Hamidon is the *only* measuring stick of skill in the game.

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Once rankings start to sort themselves out the ho players and teams will filter to the top where they are pretty much in a class of their own and the non hamified players will beable to fight amongst themselves being able to clearly see where they stand rankwise as a contender.

If the #1 ranked player in his weight class has all HO's, isn't that going to be obvious before a challenge is issued?

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Since you're obviously an advocate of separating the HO's from the non-HO's, then what's wrong with two ladders?

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The supply of HOs in one of my toons (Ive left my other 'main' clear, to provide a non-HO opponent for people who dont have the opportunity to get them) is a result of nothing more or less than a lot of hard work, planning, and careful thought and effort on my part and the part of my Supergroup. To suggest that any success I should have is somehow lessened or tainted because I chose to work hard at being successful seems very strange to me.

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Think of it like this.

You and I are going to take our cars to the racetrack.

You work hard, 60 hours a week, you started your own business and are a self-made millionaire. This racing hobby is a passion, so you bought a Ferrari 360 Challenge, and you made mods on top of it to make it the best possible racecar you could want. You do deserve this because you worked for it. Kudos and hats off to you for such hard work.

I have got a Toyota Corolla because it is all I can afford.

I say, Dude, you've got a frickin Ferrari. Of course you're going to kick my [censored]. You say, "Friend, it is all about the sport of racing. It requires an excellent driver with good instincts and skills, it is very difficult to go through a course fast, and the most important element in the equation is the driver. So it is the best driver that wins."

Then we go out on the course and you kick my [censored].

Every time.

This is the same thing... you should NOT be denied your right to leverage your hard work. But just like with race cars, in order to have a competitive event you need a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. That is, your right to have your Ferrari and race it does not include forcing ME to race against YOU because I don't have the same level of equipment. Your reward should not be my punishment. That is, you kicking the crap out of me and being gleeful about it and then reflecting on your own "skill" from the results of the battle is great for you, but it makes me into a serf who is there to lose and give you a reward.

I do not want to fight you and your 40-50 hamidon enhancements because it is like racing my Toyota vs. your custom Ferrari. You can point out until the cows come home that you can make a mistake and go off the track, but we're not using the same equipment.

It's like a heavyweight taking on a middleweight.

It's like a pro hockey player taking on a kid in highschool.

Sure, there is always a chance the middleweight might get a lucky punch and get a knockout, or that the highschool kid might slip a goal in on the pro...

But there is a REASON why sports events sort out into classes: because when one side just has too much raw power there is no challenge. It is someone who is bigger, stronger, richer, rolling over someone weaker.

For you an your Hamidon enhancements: yes, use them, but use them in the "open class" where there are no restrictions. Those of us without, we want a closed class that will exclude you and your uber loot unless you want to set it aside and join us.

This is the way the world of competitive sporting events works. It is tried and true. It is there for a reason: if your sport is involving some kind of loot (which might be sheer muscle mass even), then you need to sort it out into loot classes for things to be competitive.

Bullies do find it fun to pick on weaker people, and there is always this aspect to games that make people want to cheat or find some kind of leverage so that they have the power to roll people over. It makes them feel good. But it's only fun for the team with the power. The situation will quickly boil down to some people playing not at all.

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First of all, 5 stars.

Secondly, I'm quoting you because I think everyone should read this post as often as possible.

Thirdly, I agree. That's is what many of us have been trying to say regarding HO's in the Arena. And I, myself, have reiterated the point many a time saying...and I shall bold it, so as not to cause any confusion

HO'S ARE FINE. KEEP THEM IN PVP. JUST DON'T MIX THEM WITH THE NON-HO USERS.

How this can be done? We've already stated many a time. So please don't get overly defensive that your work is being stripped away. Keep them, keep them, keep them.

1) Don't bring your M-16 to my water-gun fight.
2) Don't bring Kurt Angle to my high school wrestling match
3) Don't bring Brett Favre to start your varsity football game
4) Don't bring Superman to my arm wrestling competition
5) Don't bring a 2005 Mustang GT to my sopabox race

I hope these examples have illustrated my point, the point of the above poster, and many others on this thread. So please, get off the "I WORKED HARD FOR MY HO's and I SHOULD KEEP THEM."

Has anyone ever mentioned anything about them before PvP? No? Ok then, the HO's are not the problem. HO's vs. SO's is the problem.

Again, one more time, even at the risk of sounding repetitive, go ahead and keep them. You have to understand that it's not fair in PvP vs a non-HO user. And something should be done about it.

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And tahts where i have an issue w/ the complainers. U say one thing but are really complaining about another thing. THey say that it's unfair becuase not everyone can get em. They wanna say that it's not fair because there will be a ceiling in pvp where the non hami'fied players basically are [censored] out.


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Oh my...in this thread there are actual posters who outlined that they don't care about HO's, just pitting HO's against SO's.
As well, there are posters who expressed that they feel HO's are "ph4t l3wt". But, if I'm reading your post correctly, you seem to be, not only grouping everyone together, but also dictating, without any personal knowlege of what's going on inside of each person's mind, what their "true intentions" are.

I'm am 98% sure that this is not your intention, I'm just trying to clarify for you that if this was your actual intention, then the, as you put it, "complainers" reserve the same right to group all the HO-users together as "l33t d00dz" who just want to "pwNX0rz evRy-1" in PvP with as many advantages in their favor.

But I know this is not true. In fact, YardApe has expressed exactly what I think the majority of the HO users feel. So please, offer the same kind of consideration before overgeneralizing.

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But the only real way of making it all fair and balanced is to remove the whole enhancement system altogether. The person talked about loot. My point stuck straight to the point. If u get an enhancement at your lvl that other players can't get unless they participate it's loot.


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Not entirely true. Many posters have outlined other ways to create this balance between HO's and non HO's.

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I swear , i'm not a rightwinger in any sense but complaining about the inequity produced by ho's makes me think the players complaining should form their own sorta ACLU. They could call it PCLU. I swear its as annoying to read these pointless complaints as it is seeing the ACLU fighting to change the word manhole cover to sewer hole cover, and mailman to mailperson.

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As you were able to clearly outline your points and list reasons for your thinking, I'm sure that you're a reasonable person. So I know you don't believe that everyone who doesn't see you way should just, "shut it."

But it sure does sound like it. Though I know you don't believe that, I'm sure you appreciate the fact that there are many other opinoins besides your own.

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If done right, PvP will solve many Lack of Content complaints, which is why some, (myself included) are complaining about the current lack of equity.

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I agree. Personally I think HO's should be effectively converted into SO's in PvP fights. With the first bost in the line being the only one that counts.

Does that serriously screw over those with HO's? Yes, but seeing how CoH was supposed to be a loot free game, I don't have a problem with that.

But I also do not think that HO's will be the death of PvP arena matches.

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Good call, that should be an option though. Don't force someone to give up their hard work if they don't want to.

It may not be the death, but could gum it up.

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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.

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Again, how the hell do I know how they are?



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Divine Wisdom.
I mean seriously like dude what are you thinking that's how all the rest of us are planning on doing it.

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Aaah. As long as there's a simple solution! :/

I'm kinda at a loss why it's so important for people to beat up on others w/ their HO's. Personally, if I ever have a bushel of HO's I'm not going anywhere near a non-HO'd hero. What's the fun in that?

So can somebody explain the allure?

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The allure is to be "t3h l33t ub3r h3r0" and "pwnX0rz all t3h lay-z n00bs ROFLROFLMAOLOLOL!!11!!!"

It's a very sad truth. In any competitive game, be it Madden, Street Fighter, Counter Strike, Starcraft, WoW, soon to be CoH, there will be those who want to be competitive, and those who want to win no matter what.

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and hami enahncements are available to everyone over 45, just put the effort into earning them, quit being lazy

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that argument doesn't work. I'm willing to bet that there are people 45+ don't have HO's who have put in just as many hours in the game as any HO user.

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<ul type="square">[*]I will enter 45+ PvP knowing full well that I may be up against someone or an SG with all powers fully HO slotted, and will contiue to do so, because I want to, even knowing that I already have a disadvantage.[/list]
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I think that from what little we really know of the PvP details, this needs to be extended to all levels of combat. The large % bonus may not be there in the under 45 matches, but the dual/triple effect of the enhancements will be.

Your point can also be used to expound on a fairly universal aspect of PvP we know from other games: you don't generally know what your opponent(s) can do. We may know what powers they have, but we probably will not know how they have them slotted. The enhancement slotting patterns become a competitive variable for the players. The higher the character level the greater the variable becomes. It could be 6 slots, it could be HO's, it could be an accolade power, it could be an unexpected temporary power. These things will all come into play. PvP can be balanced, but it not always fair.

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But there still is reason to try.

I'd like to think that the team intended PvP to be an exercise in competition, fairness and fun. That it's your wits against another human's wits.

Player vs. Player

Mixing the HO's in with the non-HO's just undermines that.

Now it looks like it's headed down the road of

HO's vs. SO's

I will agree to a great many things. But I don't see myself accepting that HO's vs SO's is balanced.

And even less fair.

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I intentionally extended the argument to the absurd so you could see the application of a balanced restriction against that of a one-sided restriction system. When taken to the extremes you can analyze the logical application of these types of things. Removing something from one person but not the other is not equitable but it may balance the match. Removing something from both may be equitable but at what cost? The unique characters each of us develped become nothing more generic templates. All our hard work to customize the way our powers work get thrown out with the bath water. Allowing the characters to stay the way their player built them is the most equitable to all.

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Understood. Which is why I continue to reiterate the fact that I am all in favor of HO users beaing able to retain their use in PvP. I've pat them on the back, clapped my hands enthusiastically, congratulated them, etc. In fact, I shall reiterate myself again. HO users have earned their bonuses and have the right to use them. Ok, that said...

If my memory still serves me correctly, I've never said to strip their use from the Arena all together. As in the first post I quoted, is "the ability to shut down HO's" meaning, you CAN shut them down IF you wanted to.

Believe it or not, there is an inherent problem in HO users competing against non-HO users. And this is what my concern is about. That's why I keep pointing out the benefits of a VOLUNTARY HO removal system (ie: one of the Arena "rules"), or a separate ladder all together. This way the non-HO's still have a good chance of doing well in 45+ PvP. Again, I will repeat and summarize

Let HO users keep their HO's but separate them *somehow* from non-HO users. Keep your gun, just don't bring it to my knife fight.

Many others, myself included, have already provided examples of what the *somehow* can be.

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For example...do all 45+'s have access to HO's?

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Yes, of course they all have access to the HO's. Do they exercise that access? That's the sticking point.

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Yes it is. Because, as it stands, they do not have access to the HO's. They may have access to the RAID (provided the "l33t ub3r raid d00dz" allow them in.) that MAY give them access to the HO's. (there is another debate going on in another thread about this issue).

Again, in the hopes that my point does not get lost, I will reiterate.
<ul type="square">[*]yes, you've earned the HO's. Please feel free to use them in the Arena.[*]But don't forget that there is a balance issue in HO-users vs. non-HO's users.[*]To ensure that there is a fair chance of competition, many believe that either separating HO-users from non-HO users is necessary. Or, to have the OPTION to turn HO's off/tone them down. (This has always been my main point.)[*]the ability to get HO's is far more different than the ability to get TO/DO/SO's[*]I love CoH, and have complete faith in the team to ensure that all parties are happy with the outcome of PvP.[*]I will enter 45+ PvP knowing full well that I may be up against someone or an SG with all powers fully HO slotted, and will contiue to do so, because I want to, even knowing that I already have a disadvantage.[/list]

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Looks like to me that the easy solution for States and crew now is to program into the arena rules interface the ability to shutdown HOs, then noone need complain that they only lost because the other guy has all HOs installed..

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And I see no problem at all with this. If the Hami users want "a challenge" as they say, then why not put yourself in the same class as the your competition.

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By extension, the scenario you propose means the only equitable solution is to remove all enhancements from everyone in the matches. Your Training, DO's, or SO's...gone. Their HO's...gone. Fortunately the Dev's realize this is not the answer because it removes the uniqueness each player worked so hard for.

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No offense intended, and I do see where you are coming from, however, intentional nor no, you may have been stretching the example a little wee tiny smidge of a bit too far. You can log on with the appropriate level, walk/run/fly/Teleport/Superjump/swim to the nearest enhancer store, can you not?

With TO/DO/SO's, ALL players in the game have access to them, provided they have met the proper Security Level.

For example...do all level 12's have access to DO's? Yes, the store is right there.

For example...do all level 22's have access to SO's? Yes, the store is right there.

For example...do all 45+'s have access to HO's?

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Looks like to me that the easy solution for States and crew now is to program into the arena rules interface the ability to shutdown HOs, then noone need complain that they only lost because the other guy has all HOs installed..

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And I see no problem at all with this. If the Hami users want "a challenge" as they say, then why not put yourself in the same class as the your competition. If you don't want to give up your HO's then find someone else who feels the same way and challenge them.

I apologize to the HO users in advance who do not feel this way, but I think there may be HO users are trying to get into the Arena all HO'ed out so they can easily rise to the top of the ladder. *gasp*

Again I say, I have no problem with being the underdog and earning my way to the top. But I may be in the minority here. Some many not be able to pick themselves off the ground as often as I can.

On top of that. I can't feel comfortable with the fact the HO'ed heroes either:

A) Feel that they're better/more dedicated than those without. And feel they deserve to be better. ("Hey buddy, I spent just as much time playing CoH as you, I just continued to run missions or played my level 4 storm/dark defender")
B) Are trying to sneak in easy wins in the Arena ("Cool, now I don't have to use much skill")
C) Honestly believe that by winning, they have superior skill to you. ("Hey man, you had a 10% chance of winning, it's not my fault")

Again, this may not apply to you, whoever is reading this, but there are some who it does apply for. And I'd like to believe that 99.9% of HO heroes are those who like challenges, and enjoy a good fight. I have no intention of grouping you with those categories. If you're none of these, and you can beat me, I will dust myself off, smile and shake your hand. But if you are one.

There's no way I'm going to miss out on the Arena, no way.

...but we all still have the right to be concerned over things like this.

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I find it sad so many people are willing to give up just because some people have special enhancements...

A Blaster with Hamihancers still has Blaster weaknesses... No matter how many Hamihancers I have, if I don't play smart, I'm going to lose - period...

I've played many games (not MMOs) which pit you against others and the one thing I've learned is that it doesn't matter what advantage you have on your side, if the other player outsmarts you and/or simply outplays you - you're going to lose...

An idiot player with Hamihancers is still an idiot player...

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True point. Very true.

Now...how about two players of equal skill? One HO user, one non-HO user.

Who wins now?

On top of that, because of such an advantage, "killer" as it was worded, the HO-hero can make more mistakes than they'd usually do, and the HO's would help compensate for that.

And even after that, they still might lose one on one, if fortune smiles upon the non-HO user.

Ok, now, how about a HO-tricked out SUPERGROUP, vs a non-HO using supergroup. While one HO-hero can be in a half coma with one arm, they have the full backing of ALL their teammates with all their HO "l33tn3ss" to help overcome the poor schmucks who may have as many hours logged on in CoH as the "Ub3r HO-Heros", but decided to do missions or start on alts instead.

Again, I will always reiterate this point. Bravo (claps hands enthusiastically) on taking down Hami, even more props for successfully repeating the deed. You've earned your HO's, be proud, stand tall, you deserve to use them in the Arena, but I still think that they should have been separated from the rest of the users.

Now as it stands, it looks as if the top spots of 45+ladder shall only be for HO users.

But, like I've also said elsewhere, I'm still gonna try my luck and see what happens. Who knows, maybe the fates will smile upon the underdog.

I have utter faith in the minds behind "City of Heroes", so I'm not going to give up on 45+ PvP yet.

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I think the whole point of it is for you to get your lvl50 to go do some hamidon raids... after all he is the "final" monster.

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Yeah, now that it's pretty much official that HO's are "the shizzle" in the Arena, I can see the "Uber Hami-farming" groups claiming more "closed raids", more people griefing for Hami enhancers, and those without HO's not participating in the 45-50 weight class.

I am not against those with HO's keeping them in the Arena. Go ahead, you've earned it. But I just wanted the rest of the levels 45-50's to have an equal chance. If it could've been done, splitting the ladder would've helped. Now, these Hami-farming SG's will own the 45-50 ladder.

I just hope that the caps on powers are enough to mitigate the advantage that the HO users have. Maybe a combination of luck, prayers, and smarts will help the rest of us have a decent chance of placing on the ladder. I'd hate to think the Ladder will have a glass ceiling because the top 30 (or whatever) spots will always be held by HO'users.

But me, being the competitive romantic I am, I'm still going to throw my hat into my "weight class" (45-50) and hope to high Krypton that I can manage to avoid getting 3-shotted by a HO user, and hear the mad taunts of "i r t3h 1337 ub3r h3r0!!11!!1 j00 r t3h n00bX0rz!!!111!!rofLOLOLOLOLOL" And somehow win.

...it'll be just like fighting an AV.

I remember...

When the Numina's Task Force was a level 35 minimum, but getting into Eden (for the last 2 or 3 missions) was a level 36+ hazard zone.

When one of the door missions in Numina's task force always spawned a level 42 DE boss.

Seeing my first Rikti (level 36) and I was level 12. That was the most afraid I've ever been in the game.

Grouping with other heroes for the first time, watching all our powers fly simutaneously, and thinking, "This is the best game ever."

I was there too on Friday. I haven't been able to say much because I've been cooped up at work to post anything. And I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say much. But I figure, that if other people are, then I might as well contribute what I learned too. I'll just paste what I wrote on my SG's forum on Friday.

-----Start-----
I work in the downtown San Francisco area and WonderCon was being held sorta nearby, so I took an early and extended lunch to hop over and see how he was doing.

First thing I did was introduce myself to him, and got a kick that we had simliar names. I brought my regular copy of CoH (Yes, I have the Special Edition too), and, per my request, he signed the cover from Jack to me, and the inside from Statesman to Night Siren

I asked him a little bit about Issue 4, and he dropped some tidbits to me. I didn't press him too hard because I really enjoyed talking to the guy.

-jetpacks in the Arena (to help balance vs. fliers???)
-setting up rules before a fight (ie: no travel powers)
-and they had a 16 vs 16 fight at Cyptic that went along pretty smoothly.
-costume 4 options included Kung Fu style shirt. Also, kitten or panda as a female shoulder clothing option

We talked about the game industry and MMO's in general. And my boss was a designer for Jack as well. Boring stuff.

Jack is a reeeeeeeallllllly cool guy and he made sure to hook me up with CoH and CoV (yes, CoV) shirts, as well as a bumper sticker. ("I'm not a hero, but I play one online"). I didn't want to take up too much of his time, because I know he had Statesy stuff to do. And I had to get back to work.

As we stepped away from me to look at the players at the kiosks (all were busy, by the way...), he leaned over to me and said "Issue 4's coming really soon".
-----End-----

"really soon"...whatever that means

I also talked with an NCSoft rep who told me when they were shooting for. I don't know if I can repeat that though, sorry.
Although, it may be before we are all "fools"

I love this game.

I love Kheldians

I have a lvl 50 DM/Regen Scrapper that never had Int or IH

I love hard bosses

I love grouping

I love being a superhero

Thanks to the CoH team across the board