[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want to see such a wide array of options for getting HO's though. Buying them? No, it just turns them into a regualr enhancement at that point that once you reach 47 you move from SO's to HO's like at 12 moving from TO to DO and at 22 moving from DO to SO.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not seeing where this is "wrong". It's not "wrong" to be able to buy the next generation of enhancements at lvl 12 or 22....why is it "wrong" to buy the next step up at lvl 47? Aren't DO's vastly superior to TO's...aren't SO's vastly superior to DO's? Sounds like the exact same thing to me. What it really sounds like is some wanting to keep their advantage.
I would love to be able to farm the Hami over and over and over so I won't be embarrassed in the Arena, but I can't. I've tried to run it twice already: Once I got about 3 shots off in 10 minutes of play due to the most impressive lag I've ever seen and decided it was the most boring thing I've ever seen, then tried again and was kicked offline about 4 times before giving up. (Both times were before I knew about the HO's...or that I HAD to have them.)
After reading about the HO's I'm now a little distressed to know that my lvl 50 Blaster is gimped after I considered him perfect before. It's clear that I won't be able to perform the farming nessessary to aquire them.
So the question might be how much I want to try PvP and do well at it....Do I attempt to buy HO's from some online HO [censored]?
[ QUOTE ]
This is an MMO. At some point, it can only be so fair to those who can only play in small chunks.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, it's okay to get to 50 (which is quite doable in "small chunks") but it's asking too much to move much past 50?
Don't buy it. Just because older MMOs restricted endgame content to pre-scheduled raids doesn't mean *this* MMO (which is quite different) has to too.
[ QUOTE ]
Really someone with the play time you indicate won't be in competition with the hardcore much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remove HOs from the equation and why not?
Mr Hardcore gets to 50 in a month. Mr Casual gets to 50 in a year. A reasonable level-cap allows Mr Casual to compete against Mr Hardcore on equal footing. An unreasonable level-cap means Mr Casual *never* catches up.
Sure, Mr Hardcore will probably still beat Mr Casual given the 11 months of PvP practice, but that's about skill (which Mr Casual will start acquiring), not farming (which Mr Casual can't/won't do).
[ QUOTE ]
All we can do is ensure that most gamers have a reasonalbe chance. We can't ensure that everyone does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doing 40+ Hami Raids until all my slots are HOs - that doesn't sound like a reasonable chance. Worse, it doesn't sound fun.
Left as-is we are insuring that a handful of uber SGs always get to PvP with a distinct advantage. And our only recourse will be to avoid them or farm a raid over and over and over.
That is an endgame I'd rather avoid.
[ QUOTE ]
Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is paying a monthly fee to torture yourself supposed to be an activity worth admiring. Why do unfun activities need to be rewarded in a GAME? Words like "put up with" & "farming" do not indicate fun to me. The only fun people get out of it beyond socialization with their raid group is stroking their ego later on when they get to "pwn n00bs".
To the lawyer, you are about the first pro-HO proponent I give any respect to in 60+ pages of lame "I gots em and you don't" arguments from kids living in mom's basement.
Tell me this though, how many of those 9 HOs can you actually use? How long do you estimate it will take you on your current play schedule to get the other 31 or so you probably want to slot? (I base that 40 number on power slots that people actually care about like primary, secondary, and pool.)
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
It is a dead horse but I will resurrect it here for the record:
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" 
) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is paying a monthly fee to torture yourself supposed to be an activity worth admiring. Why do unfun activities need to be rewarded in a GAME? Words like "put up with" & "farming" do not indicate fun to me. The only fun people get out of it beyond socialization with their raid group is stroking their ego later on when they get to "pwn n00bs".
To the lawyer, you are about the first pro-HO proponent I give any respect to in 60+ pages of lame "I gots em and you don't" arguments from kids living in mom's basement.
Tell me this though, how many of those 9 HOs can you actually use? How long do you estimate it will take you on your current play schedule to get the other 31 or so you probably want to slot? (I base that 40 number on power slots that people actually care about like primary, secondary, and pool.)
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
It is a dead horse but I will resurrect it here for the record:
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" ) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude I'm not going to argue your point, 'cause it's your opinion. I just want to say though, that just because You think the raid isn't fun doesn't mean that its not fun.
I have done the raid about 30 times now, and each time I learn more about SG mates, or meat a new friend, and I get to enjoy teaming with 100+ players. I think it rocks. I love all the work it took to finaly learn how to take this guy down, and I love refining the process.
(For the record I live with my GF and have a full time job, so does she, and we run a business on the side.)
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I'm 31, an attorney, a parent and I have ten HOs, mostly earned at Justice's 9 pm public raid.
[/ QUOTE ]
And apparently missed my point, which is that restricting the ranking lists to fights with HOs enabled will give a huge advantage to those people that have the free time to farm Hamidon again and again.
[/ QUOTE ]
You missed my point. I don't have a lot of free time (outside of work, things are slow at work right now). I have responsibilities to my family and my profession. I only get to play about two-three times a week except when I'm on vacation. I still managed to get some HOs. It's really not that hard. I choose not to make excuses for why I can't get HOs and just get them. It's just not that hard. I don't understand why people keep acting like Hami raids are like other MMOs where you have to be in a raiding guild where you have to have a perfect build and devote 12 hours to a raid.
In CoH you have to devote 2 hours to a raid, are all but assured of getting a reward if you contribute (sometimes even if you don't), and it's open to everyone. If you can't do that, where are you going to find time to do much PvPing anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's just, well... boring. I mean, the first time, maybe even the fifth time, it's fun! You're there, you're helping half the 50s on the server take down the jello mold of doom, you're hearing your computer groan under the strain, and when it's all over, you get a shiny new HO. I don't really have a huge issue with the guys that have enough HOs to slot out a power. So, they get one truly nasty first shot with their power. That's painful, but not overwhelming.
It's the guys with a whole screen of them that are a major porblem. Someone who slots all of their powers with dam/acc means that an Ice tanker or force field def/controller is completely useless against them. Even SR scrappers are left out in the cold, unless they've six slotted all their defenses AND they have HOs in all of them. One of the rarest HOs, I might add. Someone that goes half dam/acc and half dam/range can sit almost out of visual range and plink a close-in character to death while still being at 400% damage constantly. If they're fighting an ice tanker, it's not a plinking, either, it's a full out assault.
A few HOs for a character are a badge of pride, and something that good tactics can get around. A screen full is like playing on a whole other plane. Not only are your attacks more effective, but you can afford more slots for the attacks you might not have slotted, because powers like hasten, resistance defense, etc. can be capped out early. Any defense-based characters are toast against you, and that's even IF they're slotted up with HOs. Tell me again, how is it balanced if a full set of enhancements renders a character's primary or secondary worthless, even if they also have a full set?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair point, but honestly getting a full set of HOs, especially dmg/acc * 6 takes a LONG time. (former bud griefers excluded) Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge. Just my opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between having an edge and having the only knife. There are already guys out there that have 40+ HOs because they did the raid several times pre-bud fix. Beyond that, time is only a temporary stay of execution. It takes a minimum of 40 days to get the HOs that a player needs to fully spec out their character, and there are folks willing to do it.
I still have not heard a reason that all PvE rewards should have full effect in a PvP arena, other than personal preference on the part of the posters and (arguably) the devs. And, frankly, as much as I appreciate the devs' hard work, they've made egregious balance errors before. Some would argue we're still dealing with ones they made in beta.
[ QUOTE ]
I just want to say though, that just because You think the raid isn't fun doesn't mean that its not fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, what you think is fun and what I think is fun ain't the same. Thats what we've been trying to point out.
Once you admit (40+!) Raids are fun for some but not everyone how do you justify tying PvP achievement to it? Why do you bank CoV's success on it?
HOs are gonna be "killer" in PvP (statesman said so). Doing lots of raids to get lots HOs is fun for some but not for everyone (if i believe you find them fun you should be able to believe i don't).
Put it together and what do you get: A bunch of folks forced into doing something they don't find fun so they can be "killer" in PvP.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Same old MMO problem.
[ QUOTE ]
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I just want to say though, that just because You think the raid isn't fun doesn't mean that its not fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, what you think is fun and what I think is fun ain't the same. Thats what we've been trying to point out.
Once you admit (40+!) Raids are fun for some but not everyone how do you justify tying PvP achievement to it? Why do you bank CoV's success on it?
HOs are gonna be "killer" in PvP (statesman said so). Doing lots of raids to get lots HOs is fun for some but not for everyone (if i believe you find them fun you should be able to believe i don't).
Put it together and what do you get: A bunch of folks forced into doing something they don't find fun so they can be "killer" in PvP.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Same old MMO problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm I dont think its a problem. Now if you don't like fighting Hami, don't do it.
It may mean that some (I think a much smaller percentage than popularly thought) will beat you in PVP. So What? If you get beaten by that much and know someone is using them, don't compete against him again. The end problem solved.
I think that a lot of small guilds of Non-HamiOs will form, and you can compete with them. In fact I think that if nothing is done to change the current situation with HamiO's in the arena. People will very quickly figure it out for them selves. Someone can lie about not having HamiOs. But he can only do it once or twice before everyone knows who he is. Especialy now that we can all see his global handle, (he wont be able to try with different toons.)
For the most part, people will be honest about it and we'll be able to solve these issues easily I think.
[ QUOTE ]
People will very quickly figure it out for them selves. Someone can lie about not having HamiOs. But he can only do it once or twice before everyone knows who he is. Especialy now that we can all see his global handle, (he wont be able to try with different toons.)
For the most part, people will be honest about it and we'll be able to solve these issues easily I think.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not entirely true. It's quite possible to build a very subtle all-HO character that will beat the crap out of other characters and mostly look like skill when doing it, either build skill or energy management/buff management skill.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is paying a monthly fee to torture yourself supposed to be an activity worth admiring. Why do unfun activities need to be rewarded in a GAME? Words like "put up with" & "farming" do not indicate fun to me. The only fun people get out of it beyond socialization with their raid group is stroking their ego later on when they get to "pwn n00bs".
To the lawyer, you are about the first pro-HO proponent I give any respect to in 60+ pages of lame "I gots em and you don't" arguments from kids living in mom's basement.
Tell me this though, how many of those 9 HOs can you actually use? How long do you estimate it will take you on your current play schedule to get the other 31 or so you probably want to slot? (I base that 40 number on power slots that people actually care about like primary, secondary, and pool.)
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
It is a dead horse but I will resurrect it here for the record:
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" ) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I want to respond to this in pieces.
First, I never said farming should be admired. I don't think ANYTHING in a video game should be admired. I admired my baby son when he learn to grab and play with his daddy's lip last week, I don't care what people do in this game, it earns them no special admiration from me.
Now as to "fun". Well that's the most subjective term in the world. Some people actually enjoy herding. I don't. I'll admit I let my principles lapse a bit on the final push to 50, but I didn't enjoy it.
Second as to my 9 HOs (ten now, I did a raid this evening 
). I can use them ALL! I wasn't counting the lame debuff ones I sold for cash. I've done about 15-16 raids. Usually just by staying logged in at the Hive. I play my alt listen to the global chat channel devoted to Justice raids and when the call goes out, I log on my main.
Like some others have stated, I really do enjoy the raids. Not so much for the fight, which is rote. But more because you get to meet new people, you always see a brand new level 50 eager to start getting into the raid. That's really fun to see. People joke and argue and its like a big party. And a lot more fun one than the lame nerfed Paragon Dance Party!
[ QUOTE ]
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
[/ QUOTE ]
My best wishes for your wife's speedy recovery. I'm truly sorry to hear that. I agree with you by the way about dividing the playerbase. I wish they would give HO level enhancers for completion of trial, task forces and story arcs. That would make them available to all. I wish they would let people construct them, but I guess people hate tradeskills even worse than loot farming. I don't support having these enhancers come from only one encounter. But the fact remains that they do. I don't think the fix is to deny their use in PvP to those who can do the raids. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem fair to me.
[ QUOTE ]
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" ) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing about MMOs is that the reasons for things like loot and tradeskills and other such nonsense is that you need that stuff to sustain a game. I don't care how much content they add, developers will never get the majority of people to play more than 1-2 characters to the level cap. Thus there has to be something to do when you get there. In ALL MMOs I'm aware of that's farm loot. It's the additional carrot that keeps us playing. It's working for me. After I finished a couple of story arcs there will be nothing more for my main. I can probably level an alt to 50, but after that, I really don't see myself getting another character to 50. Only so many times you can play through the same content.
I know how much it sucks to be a casual gamer who can't keep up with kids who have much more time to play than you. I also play EQ2, EQOA, and WoW. I can't keep up with the kids in those games. They will always be better than I am because of their gear. I accept that. I have real, tangible things in my life to be proud of. As an engineer and husband so do you. I personally admire you much, much more for taking care of your wife. Even if you were the all-server champ of CoH, I would admire you more for taking care of your family.
In these MMOs, people play for a lot of different reason. I play to escape into another world that doesn't include judges and depositions and motions. I think a lot of people play to find some success that's missing in their real life.
Whatever the reason, you have to keep this stuff in perspective. I really wish they had never added PvP to CoH, because it brings out the worse in the player base. But now that they have, I think that people who play a lot and have more and better enhancers have a right to the spoils of their labor.
Remember its not their fault that Hami-Os are in the game. The developers put them there and based on Statesman's post, it seem like he's ok with the edge they give.
Well this reply has run on too long and I think I made my point.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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[ QUOTE ]
Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is paying a monthly fee to torture yourself supposed to be an activity worth admiring. Why do unfun activities need to be rewarded in a GAME? Words like "put up with" & "farming" do not indicate fun to me. The only fun people get out of it beyond socialization with their raid group is stroking their ego later on when they get to "pwn n00bs".
To the lawyer, you are about the first pro-HO proponent I give any respect to in 60+ pages of lame "I gots em and you don't" arguments from kids living in mom's basement.
Tell me this though, how many of those 9 HOs can you actually use? How long do you estimate it will take you on your current play schedule to get the other 31 or so you probably want to slot? (I base that 40 number on power slots that people actually care about like primary, secondary, and pool.)
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
It is a dead horse but I will resurrect it here for the record:
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" ) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I want to respond to this in pieces.
First, I never said farming should be admired. I don't think ANYTHING in a video game should be admired. I admired my baby son when he learn to grab and play with his daddy's lip last week, I don't care what people do in this game, it earns them no special admiration from me.
Now as to "fun". Well that's the most subjective term in the world. Some people actually enjoy herding. I don't. I'll admit I let my principles lapse a bit on the final push to 50, but I didn't enjoy it.
Second as to my 9 HOs (ten now, I did a raid this evening ). I can use them ALL! I wasn't counting the lame debuff ones I sold for cash. I've done about 15-16 raids. Usually just by staying logged in at the Hive. I play my alt listen to the global chat channel devoted to Justice raids and when the call goes out, I log on my main.
Like some others have stated, I really do enjoy the raids. Not so much for the fight, which is rote. But more because you get to meet new people, you always see a brand new level 50 eager to start getting into the raid. That's really fun to see. People joke and argue and its like a big party. And a lot more fun one than the lame nerfed Paragon Dance Party!
[ QUOTE ]
I am an engineer with a wife who is not in the best of health that I spend a lot of time taking care of and not only do I resent the TIME I have to spend to farm hami to compete in PVP but the QUALITY of the entertainment I'm paying for if I were to do so. I don't really see Hami as an open raid either since every Hami raid I have heard of has taken advance planning and scheduling of 20+ people. This is just not what entertainment should be and I say that from the perspective of someone who has done the mega raid thing over at least 10 more MUDs/MMOs than probably anyone reading this post. Raids I can enjoy in some games where there is actually enough varied raid+quest content to make it interesting and NO pvp (such as EQ2, where raids are not that hard to organize, mainly because you can succeed with a much wider variety of tactics than you can vs. Hami, not to mention they have raids for less people.) but in this game it is definitely dividing the playerbase into two seperate camps.
[/ QUOTE ]
My best wishes for your wife's speedy recovery. I'm truly sorry to hear that. I agree with you by the way about dividing the playerbase. I wish they would give HO level enhancers for completion of trial, task forces and story arcs. That would make them available to all. I wish they would let people construct them, but I guess people hate tradeskills even worse than loot farming. I don't support having these enhancers come from only one encounter. But the fact remains that they do. I don't think the fix is to deny their use in PvP to those who can do the raids. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem fair to me.
[ QUOTE ]
Many, many players who were sick of item-centric MMOs made this their game, and a big part of choosing CoH was getting away from all that garbage. This is going to burn a lot of them.
Don't even kid yourself and think they are "lazy" or "cowards" or "noobs" or whatever label strokes your ego. They just choose not to participate in the same mindless MMO treadmill madness they've seen in 13421434365346 games before this. one. I almost want to start the "Disillusioned MMO Vets" supergroup (Slogan: "The DMV is Hell on Earth" ) and kill Hami everytime he spawns now but:
1. You'd all continue to miss the point.
2. More importantly, the MMO industry would continue to miss the point.
3. It's a boring raid.
4. Organizing people quickly turns into work instead of fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing about MMOs is that the reasons for things like loot and tradeskills and other such nonsense is that you need that stuff to sustain a game. I don't care how much content they add, developers will never get the majority of people to play more than 1-2 characters to the level cap. Thus there has to be something to do when you get there. In ALL MMOs I'm aware of that's farm loot. It's the additional carrot that keeps us playing. It's working for me. After I finished a couple of story arcs there will be nothing more for my main. I can probably level an alt to 50, but after that, I really don't see myself getting another character to 50. Only so many times you can play through the same content.
I know how much it sucks to be a casual gamer who can't keep up with kids who have much more time to play than you. I also play EQ2, EQOA, and WoW. I can't keep up with the kids in those games. They will always be better than I am because of their gear. I accept that. I have real, tangible things in my life to be proud of. As an engineer and husband so do you. I personally admire you much, much more for taking care of your wife. Even if you were the all-server champ of CoH, I would admire you more for taking care of your family.
In these MMOs, people play for a lot of different reason. I play to escape into another world that doesn't include judges and depositions and motions. I think a lot of people play to find some success that's missing in their real life.
Whatever the reason, you have to keep this stuff in perspective. I really wish they had never added PvP to CoH, because it brings out the worse in the player base. But now that they have, I think that people who play a lot and have more and better enhancers have a right to the spoils of their labor.
Remember its not their fault that Hami-Os are in the game. The developers put them there and based on Statesman's post, it seem like he's ok with the edge they give.
Well this reply has run on too long and I think I made my point.
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Good post. I give you 4 stars for it ( I always admire people who can put down on paper what I have in my head) and a bonus for your avitar.
Why does everything always have to be fair. If you dont have the time to farm hami-Os then to bad. Deal with it, dont play. Why lvl the playing field because you dont feel like farming or cant farm. Let the farmers fight each other. If you cant hang then to bad. Its no different then practicing a sport or working hard to become good at something.
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Why does everything always have to be fair. If you dont have the time to farm hami-Os then to bad. Deal with it, dont play. Why lvl the playing field because you dont feel like farming or cant farm. Let the farmers fight each other. If you cant hang then to bad. Its no different then practicing a sport or working hard to become good at something.
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Exactly.
This thread is still going?
No enhancements whatsoever...do away w/ them all.
Or, keep talking about how you want to beat another player w/ skill in a dice game......
Noone should be able to beat me w/ anything less than intelligence...this assures me a victory cus my iq runs up around 190. So all the people complaining about hami origins can shift their arguement over to all heroes should have a even chance so that people who are smarter than me can't just beat me up and say i'm a looser, they are leet, blah blah blah.....
People who spend boring time figuring out how to bind commands are on par w/ people who spend boring time fighting hami.
People who read the boards shouldn't have more of an advantage than heroes who don't. Just like hami-o's. Reading the boards is not fun for some people, just like fighting hamidon.....
Do away w/ the boards devs....some people don't like reading them.....just like HO's - it should be removed from existance.....
Can we make binds unavailable during matches...so one hero doesn't have an advantage over the hero who doesn't know how to bind stuff?
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Do away w/ the boards devs....some people don't like reading them.....just like HO's - it should be removed from existance....
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Yeah, because we've all been arguing that HOs should be removed altogether. Not a single one of us has been arguing for their OPTIONAL DEACTIVATION or anything.
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Its no different then practicing a sport or working hard to become good at something.
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It's completely different. Practicing a sport and working hard increase your abilities. Farming Hami increases the efficiency of your equipment. It's the difference between training to be a better driver and working to buy a bigger engine.
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The thing about MMOs is that the reasons for things like loot and tradeskills and other such nonsense is that you need that stuff to sustain a game.
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CoH is proof positive that you can have a game without loot.
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Thus there has to be something to do when you get there.
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More endgame content, definitely. That doesn't equate to loot farming.
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But now that they have, I think that people who play a lot and have more and better enhancers have a right to the spoils of their labor.
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Absolutely. They have a right to the same PvE benefits that Hami enhancers always gave. Whether those benefits should extend into PvP, with no way to deactivate them temporarily, is another question.
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The developers put them there and based on Statesman's post, it seem like he's ok with the edge they give.
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And since that statement was made, Hami farming has skyrocketed, as has the sale of HOs on Ebay. Call me a cynic, but I don't think the Devs intended that.
-points to kcirrot-
Im going to stop posting. Hes saying pretty much what I want to say, and saying it better, and less antagonistically, than I can.
So, what he said.
<sarcasm>Why don't we just throw slotting out the window all-together? It isn't going to be fair to those people who couldn't/wouldn't attend raids. Also, it isn't fair to people who don't spend gobs and gobs of time on the forums gleening information on the best ways to slot their powers.
It isn't fair that some forum*Bleep* knows the ideal way to slot Cloak of Fear and I don't. I have a life and I don't have time to read the forums and find the best way to slot my powers. My opponent has an unfair advantage based on this. Remove all slotting in PvP!!
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This argument makes about as much sense as the "remove Hami O's from PvP" argument. It has already been stated that when facing an opponent of a significant level difference that you will be auto-exemplared, thus reducing the benefits of Hami O's to SO level effectiveness. Yes, the owner of a cache of Hami's has an advantage, but not to the degree of a heavy-weight matchup.
There is honestly no way to make the PvP Arena a completely level playing field. How would you factor in game experience? I don't mean XP, I mean experience playing the game, and having strategic knowledge of the various powers and how best to utilize them in any given situation. Is this kind of advantage ok?
Good, Im glad we agree that this advantage is ok. Well surprise! That kind of knowledge is a result of a time investment, just as Hami O's are a result of time investment. The fact that Hami O's are a tangible object, and game knowledge isn't, does not make a case to remove Hami O's from PvP.
I honestly don't see the developers removing the Hami O advantage from the game. Hami O's are another carrot dangled in front of high level players to keep them playing the game. If you remove the incentive to do Hami raids, you remove one of the only reasons any level 50 character has to continue playing the game. (at least for those players who constantly seek advancement in their characters' lives)
Would being able to view an opponents Hami enhancement count satisfy most opponents of Hami O's in PvP?
That powergamers should have the clinch on the arena and everyone else shouldnt even bother?
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There is honestly no way to make the PvP Arena a completely level playing field.
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Indeed. But you *can* adjust those aspects that depend on mathematics alone. Such as the function of a HO.
Nobody's saying that the field should be made utterly level at all times. This isn't a Communist agenda. All we want is for more people to be able to enjoy PvP, and for that to happen, we need an option to disable HOs temporarily.
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Good, Im glad we agree that this advantage is ok. Well surprise! That kind of knowledge is a result of a time investment, just as Hami O's are a result of time investment.
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Unlike experience, they can be the result of someone else's time investment, such as when they are bought off Ebay, or farmed and given to you by an SG member. Also, given that the time investment consists mostly of spamming holds and boggling at the frame rate, it's not really comparable.
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The fact that Hami O's are a tangible object, and game knowledge isn't, does not make a case to remove Hami O's from PvP.
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Once more: we're not talking about removing them. We're talking about making their function in any given bout OPTIONAL.
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I honestly don't see the developers removing the Hami O advantage from the game.
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Including an option to switch them off doesn't remove the advantage.
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Would being able to view an opponents Hami enhancement count satisfy most opponents of Hami O's in PvP?
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That's one of the proposed solutions. I think the 'no HOs option' solution is best.
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Do away w/ the boards devs....some people don't like reading them.....just like HO's - it should be removed from existance....
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Yeah, because we've all been arguing that HOs should be removed altogether. Not a single one of us has been arguing for their OPTIONAL DEACTIVATION or anything.
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Completely taking my thoughts out of context is see. This quip is for all the raiding hamidon is not fun...."slideshow" is a word that's been used quite often. Well, i know people who don't bother to read the boards since it's not fun for them. The same logic applies, if it's not fun for some, it should be removed....
And the whole deactivated idea is stupid. For one thing, many powers have quite a few different types of enhances that can be slotted. The probablility exists that some heroes put in HO's in place of different types of enhances because "1" - they got a HO of a different type instead and was slottable or because the other type of enhance will not be as effective and therefore isn't needed.
Now you have someone w/ a bunch of HO's in places that could use different SO's. If that person didn't have HO's, it's conceivable they would want to use different enhances that effected different attributes. But now, w/ the idea of deactivating them - You'd have to create a whole new screen that made is so u could choose the attribute to keep on each and every HO. This still wouldn't satisfy all people because some will go, hey i can't use my HO, and i have to pick an attribute i don't want since it's not as effective as i want it to be... There would probably be as many pissed off HO holders as there are self defeatests here on the boards....
Your deactivate idea is more trouble than its worth.
That's why I'm goign to say w/ certainty it won't work in that manner.
There are other ways though to make it fair and balanced. But most of you are too caught up in argueing to see them. So i'll let you guys blow more smoke until PvP comes out.
Ok, I can agree to an option to display an enemy's hami enhancement count. What I would NOT agree to is being able to view another player's build. In a PvP environment, I would consider my build to be sacred, and I wouldn't want to have a bunch of shmucks copying my build if it was found to be successful.
An option to turn Hami enhancements off? Lovely, so the players who covet their Hami enhancements will turn down fights in which they are asked to set them aside. I see this creating the same segregation in PvP that unrestricted Hami O's would foster (providing a way to view a prospective opponents Hami O's is implemented).
As for the acquisition of Hami O's, I certainly don't condone the selling of them on Ebay. If Cryptic had the resources to track this and punish people for it, they should. Of course that's impossible. I can't really concieve of a way to prevent such players from gaining an advantage, short of changing the Raids to allow a player to select his/her reward, and then making Hami enhancements non-tradeable...
Oh, and grats on 1000 posts Lady!
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The same logic applies, if it's not fun for some, it should be removed....
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But we're not SAYING HOs or Hami raiding should be removed. Stop with the straw man arguments.
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You'd have to create a whole new screen that made is so u could choose the attribute to keep on each and every HO.
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That's one way to do it, yes. Or you could just state that every HO of a given type defaults to a given attribute depending on where it is slotted. That would make for fewer HOed players wanting to fight with their enhancements off, but that's better than the alternative.
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You know, I was going to try to come up with something to offset the negativity and insecurity, here... but I give up. Youve all beaten this horse quite thorougly to death.
Im sorry your not getting everything you want. I hope you manage to have fun despite the fact that some people may have better builds, toons, inspirations, enhancements, tactics, strategies, anything that would in any fashion disadvantage you, no matter how they got it.
The other plus side? If ever you loose, no doubt it was because your foe had HOs, and you did not, or had less of them, or didnt have the right types.
Children.
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This is kinda funny to read. We are talking about a group of people who pretend to be super-powered beings while playing an online game. I think it goes without saying that we are all "children".
Give me a way to aquire HO's and I will get them. I just resent having this new cool PvP coming and finding out that I probably won't be able to compete in it. Fat lot of good it does me. Does it make me a "child" because I'm not going to enjoy being hammered down because my enhancements are "only" SO's?
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I'm 31, an attorney, a parent and I have ten HOs, mostly earned at Justice's 9 pm public raid.
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And apparently missed my point, which is that restricting the ranking lists to fights with HOs enabled will give a huge advantage to those people that have the free time to farm Hamidon again and again.
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You missed my point. I don't have a lot of free time (outside of work, things are slow at work right now). I have responsibilities to my family and my profession. I only get to play about two-three times a week except when I'm on vacation. I still managed to get some HOs. It's really not that hard. I choose not to make excuses for why I can't get HOs and just get them. It's just not that hard. I don't understand why people keep acting like Hami raids are like other MMOs where you have to be in a raiding guild where you have to have a perfect build and devote 12 hours to a raid.
In CoH you have to devote 2 hours to a raid, are all but assured of getting a reward if you contribute (sometimes even if you don't), and it's open to everyone. If you can't do that, where are you going to find time to do much PvPing anyway?
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No, it's just, well... boring. I mean, the first time, maybe even the fifth time, it's fun! You're there, you're helping half the 50s on the server take down the jello mold of doom, you're hearing your computer groan under the strain, and when it's all over, you get a shiny new HO. I don't really have a huge issue with the guys that have enough HOs to slot out a power. So, they get one truly nasty first shot with their power. That's painful, but not overwhelming.
It's the guys with a whole screen of them that are a major porblem. Someone who slots all of their powers with dam/acc means that an Ice tanker or force field def/controller is completely useless against them. Even SR scrappers are left out in the cold, unless they've six slotted all their defenses AND they have HOs in all of them. One of the rarest HOs, I might add. Someone that goes half dam/acc and half dam/range can sit almost out of visual range and plink a close-in character to death while still being at 400% damage constantly. If they're fighting an ice tanker, it's not a plinking, either, it's a full out assault.
A few HOs for a character are a badge of pride, and something that good tactics can get around. A screen full is like playing on a whole other plane. Not only are your attacks more effective, but you can afford more slots for the attacks you might not have slotted, because powers like hasten, resistance defense, etc. can be capped out early. Any defense-based characters are toast against you, and that's even IF they're slotted up with HOs. Tell me again, how is it balanced if a full set of enhancements renders a character's primary or secondary worthless, even if they also have a full set?
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Fair point, but honestly getting a full set of HOs, especially dmg/acc * 6 takes a LONG time. (former bud griefers excluded) Someone willing to put up with that level of farming should have an edge. Just my opinion.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.