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I think the insanely short line of sight will make stuff like that unviable. you wont be able to jump at moving targets because they'll dissapear when you get to far. I mean 75 feet isn't even the full range of a blasters level 1 attack.
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Going off topic 
The line of sight is reduced to 75ft? or it natually 75ft?
Anyway I bet that is irrelevant since keep the person targtted, jump up float and hit the f key as you come down OR jump up float about and target a friend as you come down.
That all equal da big pain in the but, solved by one so very simple clicky.
There naturally will be no holds barred matchs but I doubt that will be the choice of the majority.
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Damn I love being right. I said this a week ago and was ignored.
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Except that you're wrong, actually. HOs stepping down to SO levels doesn't alter the fact that you still have either double or triple the effective enhancement slots as someone who doesn't have them. That's quite enough of an advantage.
I see absolutely nothing wrong w/ 2 ladders. It really doesn't come down to being a system based on my preferences. I have to trust the developers to come up w/ something that I want to participate in and give them feedback when i can see for myself what they have labored over.
Blasters do too much damage, they should be nerfed.
Scrappers can fight close range better than blasters, they should be nerfed. Controllers can hold an enemy to the point of wanting to logoff to do something other than doing nothing, they should be nerfed. Healers can heal faster than a blaster, they all should be nerfed. Let's point out all the differences and say they all are unfair so that the devs can make the game consist of only one AT w/ only 1 primary and 1 secondary available to us all. Then we can have a fair and balanced PvP system. How about it?
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Nucleolus - 50% DAM + 50% ACC
Centriole - 50% DAM + 30% Range
Peroxisome - 50% DAM + 50% "Mez"
Endoplasm - 50% ACC + 50% "Mez"
Golgi - 50% HEAL + 50% END
Ribosome - 30% RES + 50% END
Microfilament - 50% Travel + 50% END
Lysosome - 50% -ToHit + 50% -Def + 50% ACC
Enzyme - 50% -ToHit + 50% -Def + 50% END
Membrane - 50% ToHit + 30% DEF + 50% RCH
Cytoskeleton- 50% ToHit + 30% DEF + 50% END
States is off-base on his bonuses, 4 HO perma hasten proves it.
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Very good info! I thought recharge had more than a 30% increase to it. 5 stars for you!
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there should be an option to tone down hamis, SOs, DOs, or even no ench mode. but it should be an optional rule, like the no travel powers setting. It shouldn't be a completely segregated deal.
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This makes way more sense than implementing a separate "HO Ladder." The ladder idea makes little sense to me. If I have 2 HOs.. am I forced into a ladder ranking system with someone that's fully stocked? Somehow, I don't see the fairness in that either.
Has anyone pointed out the fact that six-slotted Hami-Os on attack powers for anyone except Scrappers puts them at the dmg cap?
Think about that for a second, Blasters/Tankers/Defenders/Controllers can reach the dmg cap simply from enhancements. That sounds awesome, right?
NOT IF YOU ARE A KINETICS DEFENDER! I'm rather upset at the moment. A Kinetic Defender's ability to buff dmg output is one of two things we are well known for, the other being Speed Boost. Way to potentially take away a large part of a Kinetic's usefulness in the 45+ game. I really appreciate that.
I'd suggest making it so only one or two Hamidon Enchancements can be slotted on one power. You can't just raise the DMG cap becasue that brings up all kinds of balance issues.
This is the MAIN problem I see when Hamidon enh..
Now.. on my time in this forums.. I have definately not been one to complain. I usually think the devs do an excellent job, even when they nerfed regen (which my main is) since it really did unbalance things. One thing I've always seen people complain about is people accusing the devs on 'conspiring' forced teaming. And for the first time in a long while.. yes, this is forced teaming on a HUGE scale.
Note that I love playin CoH, and I wouldnt mind playing it hours upon hours to get a Hami-o or two. However.. it's not that easy.. to get Hami-o's we are forced to team.. and not just your average '8-man mission' this is a '100-player, needs a week of planning and a giant SG mission'. It's not so much that fighting Hamidon is boring, which some claim.. hell I'm sure fighting Hamidon is a ton of fun... but many players do not have the sources (friends, time zones, SGs) to defeat Hamidon. But those who want to match up with people who do have those things, must do the same. Is this forced teaming? Yes it is.
I like CoH alot, I think the devs are great, and I really like all you guys in-game and at these boards.. so it's not like I'd quit or threaten to cancel my account over something like this.
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Has anyone pointed out the fact that six-slotted Hami-Os on attack powers for anyone except Scrappers puts them at the dmg cap?
Think about that for a second, Blasters/Tankers/Defenders/Controllers can reach the dmg cap simply from enhancements. That sounds awesome, right?
NOT IF YOU ARE A KINETICS DEFENDER! I'm rather upset at the moment. A Kinetic Defender's ability to buff dmg output is one of two things we are well known for, the other being Speed Boost. Way to potentially take away a large part of a Kinetic's usefulness in the 45+ game. I really appreciate that.
I'd suggest making it so only one or two Hamidon Enchancements can be slotted on one power. You can't just raise the DMG cap becasue that brings up all kinds of balance issues.
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I refer you to Posi's Blaster HO dmg Cap
That is exactly what I am talking about. Any +dmg buff that a Defender can give becomes worthless to people with six-slotted Hami-Os. Hell people in that thread are talking about dropping Build Up because they have Hami-Os. If that isn't a bad sign I don't know what is.
I would be interested to know if HOs can cap people's Def as well.
When you think about it HOs are really only hurting the Defenders and, to a lesser extent, Controllers. What the hell do you need support classes for if you can reach the cape on your powers without their buffs?
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That is exactly what I am talking about. Any +dmg buff that a Defender can give becomes worthless to people with six-slotted Hami-Os. Hell people in that thread are talking about dropping Build Up because they have Hami-Os. If that isn't a bad sign I don't know what is.
I would be interested to know if HOs can cap people's Def as well.
When you think about it HOs are really only hurting the Defenders and, to a lesser extent, Controllers. What the hell do you need support classes for if you can reach the cape on your powers without their buffs?
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HOs can not cap +def as far as one can tell there is no defense cap.
HOWEVER there seems to be no accuracy cap either and HOs do boost accuracy so in a completely reverse fashion HOs may kill the viability of +def.
Before you start screamming the sky is falling however keep in mind no one knows how things really work, apprently there is some another theory on +def that could in theory take care of this problem.
The maxed damage thingy does not bode well for that solution but it is a possiblity.
Also an enemy team had kinetics defender could not that defender debuff their damage? So boosting damage would be useful then.
I've got 5 HOs, spread out over 3 of my hold powers. Mostly on my group hold. Yes, they make a difference, not as much as some people think but yes, a noticeable difference, especially when they're stacked.
Regarding this weight classes, i'll gladly turn off my HOs to play against those who don't have HOs. Hami O'd heroes shouldn't (non consensually) square off against non Hami o'd heroes, that's unfair. I think Stateman's exemplar solution is a pretty fair compromise on the issue. That said, if i didn't have hami Os, i'd love to fight hami o'd heroes anyways. Just to try it out.
Just one thing that doesn't get mentioned all that often in this thread is skill and experience. Hami Os or not, anyone that's been mostly PLed to 50, really doesn't know how to effectively play their toon. It took me 950 hours to get to 50, I know how play her. Me without hami-Os vs PLed 50 with their hami-Os in effect, i'll still kick their [censored] just about everytime.
I see valid points on both sides of the argument, although some of the points and arguments are clearly exagerated. Let's be clear on one thing about the loot issue. I'd say 98% of CoH is loot free. Hami Os are indeed elite loot but what the hell else is there for a 50 to do, besides collect the accolades (which are a form of elite loot too and i don't see peeps complaining about them) and help out SG mates and/or lower lvl heroes. I know, go play up an alt. What can i say, i miss my 50 and i like logging her on and giving her a spin. Once a week, sometimes twice a week, that means spending 1.5 to 2 hours on a hami raid. No big time commitment, we've all been on regular mishs that take up that much time, sometimes more time. If it ain't your bag, i understand. If it's a time thing for you, well, sry, that excuse simply doesn't fly. I've got a fairly busy life too. Full time school, social life and work. If i've got time to hami raid, you've probably got the time too.
That's my 2 cents. Looking forward to PvP and testing my skills and powers out against all you other 50s.
Just reactivated my account... Been itching to post...
All I have to say is... YES! ROCK ON, STATESMAN! 
I'd much prefer it if Hamidon Origin Enhancements just didn't exist...
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I have been looking forward to the implementation of PvP since I started CoH. And I fall in with those who are concerned about the effect of Hami enhancements on PvP. Like many others, I found the 'loot-free' aspect of CoH refreshing after other MMO's and, in fact, that is a big part of the reason I am still here after my core group of gaming friends have moved to newer games.
I have participated in Hami raids and, for me, they are just not fun ... the massive style raids never have been my style. If it ends up that farming Hami becomes necessary to be competitive in PvP then I will sadly accept that the game direction is no longer for me.
But I think the developers have done an outstanding job so far and I trust that they will take all play styles into consideration while they work out the details of PvP.
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How about making hami's (and hydrao's and titano's) decay over time. The decay time can be short enough that the enhancements won't be worth it to maintain. Course then people will say that that's bad, and the trial is less rewarding, so put a temp power in there that's sorta neat. Since temp powers can be removed in arena's (I gather) this wont be a problem.
This I feel it is worth it, because it will remove the hami-o issue.
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I usually think the devs do an excellent job, even when they nerfed regen (which my main is) since it really did unbalance things.
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Since Regen scrappers are the only ones tanking Hamidon, I can see why the "nerf" wouldn't upset them too much.
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HOs can not cap +def as far as one can tell there is no defense cap.
HOWEVER there seems to be no accuracy cap either and HOs do boost accuracy so in a completely reverse fashion HOs may kill the viability of +def.
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There is certainly a practical cap to +Def. In PvP, it's 95%, plus whatever debuffs can be applied to a hero. In PvE, it's 95%, plus whatever level factors can be applied (+5/+6 villains).
The problem is that HOs buff accuracy by 50%, and defense by much less.
You guys with this "skilled" arguement are killing me here, have you played PvP in other MMOs?
Yes skill DOES have a good deal to do with it BUT so do the "behind the scenes" numbers. Also people making the "skilled" arguement seem to forget that some skilled PvPers are going to ALSO be the ones who have fully-slotted HOs. Hell the skileld PvPers are going to be MORE LIKELY to put in the time it takes to get all those HOs because they are competitive.
Not to mention, in an MMO where numbers play a big part in fighting mechanics, if one guy has especially more powerful "equipment" than the other he has to suck pretty bad to lose to someone with much crapper "equipment."
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Just to clarify, this means that the official stance is that from levels 45-50, COH changes from being a loot-free game, to being a loot-based game. I'm not sure why the devs want this, but it's their game. Shame, some of us liked COH because it wasn't like other mmos.
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quoted for importance
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I'd much prefer it if Hamidon Origin Enhancements just didn't exist...
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Makes two of us.
PvP aside, the game's not balanced for Hami-O's -- and, since they're supposed to be rare, it can't be. Except that they're not rare for some people anymore.
It doesn't look like the designers envisioned people having more than a couple HOs at any one time. Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
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I'd much prefer it if Hamidon Origin Enhancements just didn't exist...
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Makes two of us.
PvP aside, the game's not balanced for Hami-O's -- and, since they're supposed to be rare, it can't be. Except that they're not rare for some people anymore.
It doesn't look like the designers envisioned people having more than a couple HOs at any one time. Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
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They do fit the bill of making you feel "super powerful" though, that some people had been complaining about.
I wonder if a Tank or Scrapper with full Hami's can solo AVs now?
Still here, even after all this time!
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I'd much prefer it if Hamidon Origin Enhancements just didn't exist...
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Makes two of us.
PvP aside, the game's not balanced for Hami-O's -- and, since they're supposed to be rare, it can't be. Except that they're not rare for some people anymore.
It doesn't look like the designers envisioned people having more than a couple HOs at any one time. Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
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They do fit the bill of making you feel "super powerful" though, that some people had been complaining about.
I wonder if a Tank or Scrapper with full Hami's can solo AVs now?
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There are MANY scrapper builds that could solo AVs long before Hamihancers became common.
you know i could almost get behind a NO-ENHANCEMENTS fight option.
knock everyone down to 0 enhancements and see how they go, it could be quite fun.
now the 0 enhancement idea is the one for me that is the no brainer for people afraid of getting clobbered by the HO crowds. THis has to be the one idea that beats all proposed on the lets nerf everyone stronger than me point of view.
THen it's not about you min/maxing better than someone else. A person who doesn't know how to slot properly has just an even field to play w/ the people who know how to slot effectively. In essence this not only equalizes the uber leet players w/ fully decked out toons w/ HO's - AND - makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.
This could even make a 2 class system. One free for all, no holds barred fighting w/ enhancements. The other can be , the ultimate handicap fighting class.
Both can easily have their own tournaments, and everyone can play in both tournaments or just one of the tournaments if they want.
And noone has to have their enhancements turned into something they aren't.
I've skimmed the posts and a lot of arguing seems to be going on but I have seen only a few real numbers (If there are more I'm sorry for missing them). So here is what I came up with for Arena, Hamios and My Empath Belldandy.
In any combat between Level 25 and level 45 (All enhancments treated as SO's but extra slots from Hamios allowed. According to Statesman Post.) the Fortitude Buff is as follows.
If you don't like Math or details skip below to the RED meat and Potatoes
Bell 6 slots Fortitude with Membrane Hamios.
Empath X uses regular SO's. 2 Attack Rate, 2 Defense Buffs , 2 Accuracy Buffs.
Empath X
Fortitude - Kept on 4.4 (4 people since there is lag to apply it.)
Accuracy increased to +50%
Defense Increased to +42%
Belldandy
Fortitude - Kept on 7.5 (7 people since there is lag to apply it.)
Accuracy increased to +90%
Defense Increased to +66%
For those interested in my sources.
http://members.cox.net/cityofheroes/EnhancementCalc.htm
and the following two guides
Lady Mages Empathy Guide
A Guide to Hamidon Enhancement
Meat and Potatoes here
I'll try to put it in easier terms , though not as accurate, for those who don't like numbers.
From an accuracy and Defense stand point Non-Hamio Empath X can turn 4 of his 7 Minions in to Lieutenants. Bell can turn All 7 of her minions into Bosses.
Two things to Keep in mind
1) This is what can be done with Just 6 Hamios. Not the 30+ that some people already have.
2) As can be seen the Hamios will affect teams as low as Level 25 (or is it 20) in this manner. Even at lower levels the difference will be there.
If these numbers are correct and my understanding that teams will be allowed to exemplar Hamio characters is correct then this may severely lopside all arena combats below level 40.
Belldandy - Protector Server.
Note this was done right before bed. I believe it to be corect but would appreciate a double check. Feel free to EMail me if you need info.
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I'd much prefer it if Hamidon Origin Enhancements just didn't exist...
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Makes two of us.
PvP aside, the game's not balanced for Hami-O's -- and, since they're supposed to be rare, it can't be. Except that they're not rare for some people anymore.
It doesn't look like the designers envisioned people having more than a couple HOs at any one time. Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
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so because a few people are unbalanced, by your standards, you want to do away with the only end game content's reward?
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I would just like to say that I am amazed at how big an issue this has become. Both sides have made some good points, however I think I have a compromise that might work for everyone.
Treat the HOs as like merit badges for level 50s who can't level any more. Then use the HO count of a player to determine the extended weight class of that hero.
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I was thinking about this as well.
It really depends on how the devs points system works.
If its a hard split between weights, so you get no point when out of your league then they may as well split the HO user into the another league.
If it is some sort of weighted point system, and a level 20 who beats a level 50 get more points then a 50 who beats a level 20 then yeah they definatly should make the HOs have weight.
Doesn't even have to be a badge system just an a background weighting system.
Finally if the devs are going to use some totally insane open system where everyone is in the same unweighted ladder and level 50s are at the top and level 2s are at the bottum then....UNG!!! Howewer I suppose the one advantage is that the ladder would be a measue of sheer power. At least until I convince eveyone to take a dive against my level 4 hero.