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I think it is worth pointing out here that I hardly need to have a simulation run to know that the army with 10k troops has a rather large advantage over the army with 5k.
However I do agree that numbers are never the full story and in fact often lie. So while the basics of a double league should are being worked up go ahead and test HOs and NO HO in duels.
I fully believe that certain types of solid teams No HOers could take down a HO team. I am also fairly sure that a fully HOed MA/Regen scrapper will decimate any other non-HO scrapper in a one on one duel.
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I have no delusions about HO's dominating the post 45 game, but in the pre 45 game, it is all but impossible that they will be so dramatically changed or capped that they won't make much of a difference at all.
One other thing... I keep seeing the number 300% when refering to the amount of damage and accuracy on 6 slotted HO attacks. Unless I'm mistaken, the cap kicks in somewhere closer to 200% on PvE... but then again I've been known to be wrong on occasion. If someone knows where there is a listed cap that has been tested or verified, please post a link.
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Hami-Os are 50% boosts, not 33% like SOs.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Once rankings start to sort themselves out the ho players and teams will filter to the top where they are pretty much in a class of their own and the non hamified players will beable to fight amongst themselves being able to clearly see where they stand rankwise as a contender.
If the #1 ranked player in his weight class has all HO's, isn't that going to be obvious before a challenge is issued?
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Since you're obviously an advocate of separating the HO's from the non-HO's, then what's wrong with two ladders?
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/huge snip
Of course the devs can change from what they currently plan. That's why we're talking this over now - to try to get the system that seems most fair tested at the start. Otherwise, we end up with the terribleness of:
1. Initial system unfair;
2. Ubernerfing of things that seem unfair, and often nothing happen to some unfair aspects;
3. Unanticipated consequences of the ubernerfing, involving even more nerfing and power adjustments;
4. Even more unanticipated consequences;
5. Rinse and repeat until something more evenhanded is implemented.
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This is by far my greatest and very real fear. I define a nerf a little differently then most people. To me a nerf is when the WRONG aspect of a game is reduced to balance out some problem. So bascially the devs miss the mark and smite the wrong thing.
In SWG this happened literally all the time they kept smiting and kept missing the problem or smited with such horrible vengance that they got the problem and everything else as well. In CoH the Devs have a much better track record, this is half due to superior insight and half do to some very weak half-nerfs.
However the potential for the careening teeter-totter of insanity rises dramatically when something of "value" really goes on the line. Which it always does in PvP. Also once people start screaming the level headed people that "correctly" identified the problem get out shouted.
You have no reason to believe what I say but I personally have had a very good track record with identifying core issues/problems that may/will cause problems. I also have a very nearly perfect track record of getting out shouted and ignored. I listed 12 things that I though were of some concern in issue 2 before it went live, all of which were ignored, all of which generated tremendous amounts of shrill screaming, and all of which were finally dealt with.
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* * *
That is why "wait and see" is just pointless. It just delays things if there are reasons to change things before the initial test PvP come out. We know without much doubt what's going to happen with their current plan. You think it's OK? Great, let's discuss. You think it's not OK? Great, let's discuss. But there's no point in putting our heads in the sand.
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A stitch in time saves nine.
I am glad that this is getting dealth with now so that in the future the shrill screams not deafen us all and the nerf rollercoaster can be avoided.
Of also deep importance the clearer and more fundamental arguements are being made from both sides this will sure get lost as PvP comes closer and closer to live.
All too soon the self-righteous proclamtions of "Me NO HOs then me go", or "I hate loot and will never ever stand for it never ever ever no matter what remove it all NOW and I will settle for no less." will start to arrive. Or better those that hate PvP with an irratinal and all consuming passion.
Oh wait they already have....
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yeah there should be a no-hamidon class for 45-50 too. I agree.
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Then sir we have an accord 
Vote yes to the Cosmic/titan weight class.
PS:
Also I am not sure why you have 1 star so I am going to give you 4 until I catch you saying something really stupid 
At the very least you can see other people's viewpoints, express an willingness to listen and compromise all superb qualities for anyone to have in a disscussion.
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for the challenge?
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A reasonable answer as long as it is an exhibition bout and not going to be held against me in anyway.
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Hami-Os are 50% boosts, not 33% like SOs.
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I understand that, that wasn't in question as states posted that at the beginning of the thread. I understand that 6 Hamis = 300% acc and 300% dam, but isn't the total cap for any enhancement on a power 200-250%? Including buffs and such that is.
No, the only cap is the Damage cap, which limits damage buffs to 400% (500% for scrappers). Or to 300%, depending on how you count - as in, it'll add 300% to base damage.
There is also a slow floor, at 25% recharge speed and 10% run speed.
Other than that, you can slot the heck out of anything you want. You can get +1000% accuracy (theoretically), it just doesn't help b/c there is a 95% cap on "to hit" chance. You also can get +1000% defeense, but against there's a 5% floor on "to hit" chance.
I feel the CoH developers have thought of the Hammy vs. non-Hammy enhancement issue. I would not be surprised to see an option in the arena to the effect of All enhancement are set to SO, DO, training, etc.. Level Just like the No Travel Powers option.
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I feel the CoH developers have thought of the Hammy vs. non-Hammy enhancement issue. I would not be surprised to see an option in the arena to the effect of All enhancement are set to SO, DO, training, etc..
Level Just like the No Travel Powers option.
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They wouldn't let this arguement rage like this if they had a solution that was already functional (aside from what states posted at the beginning of this thread). My guess is that they are still working on it.
They might very well be implementing some of these suggestions right now! As we speak, so to speak!
The dev's are pretty shrewd, they aren't going to comment on a bunch of ideas that may or may not be feasible. I'd be surprised to see a post, even if they are planning something for HO's.
Long thread.
My 2cents.
HOs are "broken" in PvP & should either be 1). PvP nerfed to SO(33%) of 1st listed type and / or be classed as "Unlimited". & HOs should flag you. Hidden Nitrous Oxide is not a racecar.
Now can we please stop spamming HO whiney threads and continue posting about why "no one can beat your AT in PvP"
thanks, I knew you would understand.
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Now can we please stop spamming HO whiney threads and continue posting about why "no one can beat your AT in PvP"
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LOL, I hope you are kidding... at least the HO arguements have numbers to back them up, the AT ones are all BS and bad math (READ: fake numbers)
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Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
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I am the epitome of a casual player and I can safely say that I will likely never see an HO in one of my enhancement slots. Heck, I may never see level 45+! However, I am interested in PvP and would like to compete on a level playing field when I get into the arena. Even when a 45+ with HOs is exemp'd down, he/she has an advantage due to the multi-bump aspect of HOs.
The suggestion of a non-HO ladder/arena is a great idea. It lets casual gamers such as myself go in and compete PvP on a level field.
If you're a power gamer and have the time/mentality to devote to farming HOs, more power to you. Do it, be happy, compete in the "HO" arena. If you're a casual gamer that doesn't want to farm then do it, be happy and compete in the "non-HO" arena.
It seems like it would be fairly simple to code a gate for HOs and set up a second arena.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
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Long thread.
My 2cents.
HOs are "broken" in PvP & should either be 1). PvP nerfed to SO(33%) of 1st listed type and / or be classed as "Unlimited". & HOs should flag you. Hidden Nitrous Oxide is not a racecar.
Now can we please stop spamming HO whiney threads and continue posting about why "no one can beat your AT in PvP"
thanks, I knew you would understand.
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I don't think they're broken at all.
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for the challenge?
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It's only a challenge if you have some chance of succeeding.
Otherwise, it's an exercise in pointlessness.
Which, in a way, is what the anti-HO argument is about -- preventing the Arena from becoming totally pointless for the vast majority of people who can't slot over 40 HOs.
I still think this is a probem with the potential to kill the feature, or at least kill it post-45. The more I watch this thread the more I'm convinced.
there should be an option to tone down hamis, SOs, DOs, or even no ench mode. but it should be an optional rule, like the no travel powers setting. It shouldn't be a completely segregated deal.
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there should be an option to tone down hamis, SOs, DOs, or even no ench mode. but it should be an optional rule, like the no travel powers setting. It shouldn't be a completely segregated deal.
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My opinion exactly. And, y'know, the fact that you're willing to face the likes of me *without* your Uber Loot active makes me feel that much better about fighting you when it *is* active. It means you're not hiding behind your HOs. I like this.
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I hope CoH doesnt get murdered by its own developers much how SWG was murdered by SOE. It's not looking good...
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<Nods>
I would just like to say that I am amazed at how big an issue this has become. Both sides have made some good points, however I think I have a compromise that might work for everyone.
Treat the HOs as like merit badges for level 50s who can't level any more. Then use the HO count of a player to determine the extended weight class of that hero.
Alien 51 - Emp/Energy/Energy Defender
Average Bob - Rifle/Devices/Munitions Blaster
Fusion Avatar - Triform Warshade
Grumpy - Nec/Poison/Mu Mastermind
Metallic Guy - Kat/Inv/Weapons Scrapper
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for the challenge?
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I enjoy fighting Mike Tyson for the challenge too.
Once.
Then with my face broken, I go back to picking on people my own size.
If HOs are optional and not forced down our throats I am 100% sure that there will be crossover where people will venture in for the challenge or for some who really don't care or some who want to be the guy who brings the knife to the gunfight and wins.
Going to the arena which is sure to be camped out day and night by a handful of guys with 40 HOs slotted though prevents a lot of us from enjoying our L50s.
you probably wont be forced to fight those guys camping out the arena.
No and see in a way thats the problem...players by themselves will create their own weight divisions. How frustrating is it going to be to have spent all that time on Hami raids and no one will want to fight you? OTH how fun will it be to just romp all over someone. I will post in your weight division thread eventually. Trying to see how I want to phrase it. But thats the gist of it anyway. TY for trying to come up with solutions though
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there should be an option to tone down hamis, SOs, DOs, or even no ench mode. but it should be an optional rule, like the no travel powers setting. It shouldn't be a completely segregated deal.
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Which I am guessing amounts too no option.
Everything thinks no travel power switch thats fine no big deal, BUT after the first week of PvP play that no travel power switch will probabbly be on 99% of the time.
Everyone likes to think in silly predictable patterns, Ooo super speed jousts and slowing them down and blah blah blah.
No one ever stops to consider how truely outrageous flight will be, or even worse super jump.
Hmm... I jump beside you hit you with my best attack then jump up, float about for abit, moving too fast to be effected by much, then come down land beside your most vulernable friend smash them with my full attack chain and POP back into the air, rinse and repeat. It's defianatly a good tactic but it is SO good that it will just destablize everything and no one will want to deal with it. Generally just too much of a headache.
Same deal with HOs they will cause crazy distablization and no one will want te have to deal with it.
I think the insanely short line of sight will make stuff like that unviable. you wont be able to jump at moving targets because they'll dissapear when you get to far. I mean 75 feet isn't even the full range of a blasters level 1 attack.
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I think it is worth pointing out here that I hardly need to have a simulation run to know that the army with 10k troops has a rather large advantage over the army with 5k.
However I do agree that numbers are never the full story and in fact often lie. So while the basics of a double league should are being worked up go ahead and test HOs and NO HO in duels.
I fully believe that certain types of solid teams No HOers could take down a HO team. I am also fairly sure that a fully HOed MA/Regen scrapper will decimate any other non-HO scrapper in a one on one duel.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no delusions about HO's dominating the post 45 game, but in the pre 45 game, it is all but impossible that they will be so dramatically changed or capped that they won't make much of a difference at all.
One other thing... I keep seeing the number 300% when refering to the amount of damage and accuracy on 6 slotted HO attacks. Unless I'm mistaken, the cap kicks in somewhere closer to 200% on PvE... but then again I've been known to be wrong on occasion. If someone knows where there is a listed cap that has been tested or verified, please post a link.