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Nothing has happened that would keep me from participating in PvP (I doubt anything would), also nothing has happened that would make me stop playing my alts and continually farm one monster over and over repeatedly (nothing is going to make that happen, heh.)
I am not worried that the top rungs of the ladder would be dominated by a small group of hardcore players, that is already a foregone conclusion on any online game. The people willing to put in the huge amounts of time and do anything to win will win, it's the nature of the genre.
Now, this doesn't mean that PvP in general or the arena in particular can't be loads of fun, I'm quite certain it will be for many (if not most) people for at least a while.
What I am worried about is creating such an obvious line between the haves and havenots, something prevalent in lots of MMOGs but conspicuously absent so far from CoH. What I do fear this will lead to is loads of PvP fights ending in numerous complaints about who had the most HOs, demands of screenshots of enhancement pages, and whining from well known Hami raiders of "I would be higher on the ladder but everyone is afraid of fighting me."
Some complaining is bound to come with any PvP, okay, lots of complaining is bound to come with any PvP but the whole HO vs. SO situation seems like it's going to magnify it massively. I really don't want every friendly matchup to end with accusations that I only won because I had more HOs and I also don't want to turn down matches because I'm challenged by people that have twice as many HOs as I do and know I have no prayer against.
My solution is pretty simple, uses existing code, and should annoy everyone enough to probably be reasonable fair. Add a new merchant/contact like Ghost Falcon. He gives a mission to kill one Hamidon. After you finish the mission he'll sell you HOs. (I wish there was some easy way to make them "No-Drop" but this shouldn't be too big a deal living with them being tradable.) Make them alot more than SOs so they'll act as a nice money sink, but not insane amounts, that'll just cause farming again. (I'm thinking a couple of 100K each, maybe as much as a million).
This way every level 47-50 can be equalized pretty well, virtually all griefing of buds will stop, and you'll get something for defeating Hami without requiring endless farming.
Anyway, just a thought.
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No, then people are just going to grind for influence. You said it yourself - the people at the top will do anything to be at the top.
This is human nature.
If HOs didn't exist, people who wanted to be at the top of the ladder in PvP would mathematically analyze the best powersets in the game and grind the respec TF for max-level SOs.
They'd look at CoH's netcode and try to find ways of cheating in the arena, praying nobody would catch on, because if they can find something than someone else will find something, and God forbid someone else has an advantage they don't.
If they're losing a match they're going to kick the cord out of the machine and whine about disconnects, and if somebody brings up their low ranking they're going to blame it all on network problems.
They might even launch a DoS attack against another player's IP address to lag them down in the Arena.
Heck, I'm sure there are people out there who are right now planning to do many of these things. After they go on enough Hamidon raids to outfit themselves completely with HOs.
PVPing random strangers will always carry this element of risk.
I can't raid Hammy. Not don't want to, not don't have the time, CAN'T. I'm on dialup, and my Hamidon experience is 30 seconds of slideshow followed by LCTMS.
That said, I'm going to have to agree with an earlier 1600-posts-casual poster. PvP hasn't gone live yet. It hasn't even gone TEST yet. Accuracy issues, HO issues, and a frooglepoopillion things that somebody is concerned about are probably being thought about.
I mean, I hear in Issue 6 they're going to introduce teh PWNXXX0R archetype which has innate boosts of +200 percent to accurage, damage, endurance and health regen, and recharge rate, and you can only unlock it as part of a double-secret accolade that will involve Isolator. Shouldn't you be getting worked up over that?
I mean, it's just as real as all these PVP issues everybody seems to have.
--GF
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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For one these items dont get duped, noone has gotten them unfairly
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Putting out additional pets to get extra HOs sure sounds like an exploit to me.
How about adding an NPC Salesperson - "Hami-O's R Us®" Sales Rep - Brought to you by Hero Corps. Here any Hero can purchase Hami-O's at 50th level at a very high cost - 1 million or so apiece. This would allow "casual" players to purchase them, wouldn't detract from those "earning" them and would work to soak bloated Influence Pocket Books.
I dunno - but a solution along these lines would be a helluva lot easier to code than "on/off switch" solutions, etc...
Bottom line is I personally want to see the game stay as fun as possible for everyone. Just because ph4t l00t ph4min' isn't my thing doesn't mean I don't understand that others are attracted to it. I also want to see PvP be as successful as possible from the get go. See, the Arena isn't just the introduction of PvP to CoH, it's providing a live testing ground for CoV - and for the health of the game I want to see CoV be as successful as is absolutely possible.
I agree man. I certainly dont want to take anyones fun (and yes even work) away from them. The question is and remains what is fair to everyone involved?
As far as CoVs goes thats far enough down the road that I am sure they will have come up with some sort of equitable solution by then. I would wonder though what effect HOs will have on the Devs datamining.
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or you can choose your opponents carefully.
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You'll note that some players have asked for such tools -- the option of HO-free matches or some way to see who has slotted how many HOs.
Oddly enough this doesn't seem popular with the pro-HO crowd.
Shall we venture a guess as to why...
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you could ask them? sure they could lie, but I'm always willing to let people know what they are up against.
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See, that would turn me off right away. I want to fight *you*, not your trophy cabinet. That's just my personal feeling, however...
Here's a thought. Since the game's going to be ranked on a chess-like points system, why not give additional points to the victor if they defeat an opponent who's got a class of Enhancement that they haven't? (Naturally, additional points would be deducted from the loser too.)
There's nothing wrong with fighting an opponent who has a claymore when you have a dagger, provided that a) you KNOW he has a claymore before you start throwing down, and b) the judges who award the points are AWARE of the difference in your weapons.
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you could ask them? sure they could lie, but I'm always willing to let people know what they are up against.
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See, and this is what people are railing against. I count at least 44 HO's slotted, probably more in your pools. I would also imagine most of your SG has a similar slotting. Not taking a personal shot at you or TA, but do you really think a group in the arena not fully outfitted with HO's has a real chance of beating a group of TA (or any HO'ed group)?
People want a somewhat even playing field in PvP. I don't see that ever happening unless a system is designed to seperate HO users from non HO users.
which is why i support turning off HOs or having a no-HO option. If you don't want to fight me as enhanced as I am (its not a wardrobe or trophy case, RP wise its a part of me... as much as SOs are a part of you) If you wanna take on just my skill thats cool too.
Mind you it will be fun totally throwing down on somebody and woopin their butt.
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you could ask them? sure they could lie, but I'm always willing to let people know what they are up against.
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Wow that's crazines. I'm alot less excited about issue 4 now.
-- Biotyk -- Pink-Princess -- Paragon Ranger -- Sikuna
** On Virtue
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The supply of HOs in one of my toons (Ive left my other 'main' clear, to provide a non-HO opponent for people who dont have the opportunity to get them) is a result of nothing more or less than a lot of hard work, planning, and careful thought and effort on my part and the part of my Supergroup. To suggest that any success I should have is somehow lessened or tainted because I chose to work hard at being successful seems very strange to me.
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Think of it like this.
You and I are going to take our cars to the racetrack.
You work hard, 60 hours a week, you started your own business and are a self-made millionaire. This racing hobby is a passion, so you bought a Ferrari 360 Challenge, and you made mods on top of it to make it the best possible racecar you could want. You do deserve this because you worked for it. Kudos and hats off to you for such hard work.
I have got a Toyota Corolla because it is all I can afford.
I say, Dude, you've got a frickin Ferrari. Of course you're going to kick my [censored]. You say, "Friend, it is all about the sport of racing. It requires an excellent driver with good instincts and skills, it is very difficult to go through a course fast, and the most important element in the equation is the driver. So it is the best driver that wins."
Then we go out on the course and you kick my [censored].
Every time.
This is the same thing... you should NOT be denied your right to leverage your hard work. But just like with race cars, in order to have a competitive event you need a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. That is, your right to have your Ferrari and race it does not include forcing ME to race against YOU because I don't have the same level of equipment. Your reward should not be my punishment. That is, you kicking the crap out of me and being gleeful about it and then reflecting on your own "skill" from the results of the battle is great for you, but it makes me into a serf who is there to lose and give you a reward.
I do not want to fight you and your 40-50 hamidon enhancements because it is like racing my Toyota vs. your custom Ferrari. You can point out until the cows come home that you can make a mistake and go off the track, but we're not using the same equipment.
It's like a heavyweight taking on a middleweight.
It's like a pro hockey player taking on a kid in highschool.
Sure, there is always a chance the middleweight might get a lucky punch and get a knockout, or that the highschool kid might slip a goal in on the pro...
But there is a REASON why sports events sort out into classes: because when one side just has too much raw power there is no challenge. It is someone who is bigger, stronger, richer, rolling over someone weaker.
For you an your Hamidon enhancements: yes, use them, but use them in the "open class" where there are no restrictions. Those of us without, we want a closed class that will exclude you and your uber loot unless you want to set it aside and join us.
This is the way the world of competitive sporting events works. It is tried and true. It is there for a reason: if your sport is involving some kind of loot (which might be sheer muscle mass even), then you need to sort it out into loot classes for things to be competitive.
Bullies do find it fun to pick on weaker people, and there is always this aspect to games that make people want to cheat or find some kind of leverage so that they have the power to roll people over. It makes them feel good. But it's only fun for the team with the power. The situation will quickly boil down to some people playing not at all.
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First of all, 5 stars.
Secondly, I'm quoting you because I think everyone should read this post as often as possible.
Thirdly, I agree. That's is what many of us have been trying to say regarding HO's in the Arena. And I, myself, have reiterated the point many a time saying...and I shall bold it, so as not to cause any confusion
HO'S ARE FINE. KEEP THEM IN PVP. JUST DON'T MIX THEM WITH THE NON-HO USERS.
How this can be done? We've already stated many a time. So please don't get overly defensive that your work is being stripped away. Keep them, keep them, keep them.
1) Don't bring your M-16 to my water-gun fight.
2) Don't bring Kurt Angle to my high school wrestling match
3) Don't bring Brett Favre to start your varsity football game
4) Don't bring Superman to my arm wrestling competition
5) Don't bring a 2005 Mustang GT to my sopabox race
I hope these examples have illustrated my point, the point of the above poster, and many others on this thread. So please, get off the "I WORKED HARD FOR MY HO's and I SHOULD KEEP THEM."
Has anyone ever mentioned anything about them before PvP? No? Ok then, the HO's are not the problem. HO's vs. SO's is the problem.
Again, one more time, even at the risk of sounding repetitive, go ahead and keep them. You have to understand that it's not fair in PvP vs a non-HO user. And something should be done about it.
yeah there should be a no-hamidon class for 45-50 too. I agree.
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you could ask them? sure they could lie, but I'm always willing to let people know what they are up against.
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And there's just no way I would want to PVP you with that kind of slotting. Why bother?
for the challenge?
There needs to be a way to either turn those HOs off or keep people with HOs out of matches whose creator doesn't want them.
And there sure as hell needs to be more ways to get them than fighting the same stupid blob over and over. Boredom and work shouldn't be rites of passage in something made for entertainment.
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for the challenge?
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If I want that sort of challenge I'll go solo Hami... I mean, still no chance of winning, but if I do... score!
How long did update 3's one-shot-bosses last? A couple of days? I think you'll find your answer in that.
well you aren't alone in your thoughts, but i have read some people that want to take on HO heros with SOs and feel that they will win and feel more powerful because of it.
I see so much avoiding reality goign on here. I for one don't want to pvp w/ some casual joe who has no ho's. It would be absolutely no fun for me. I in fact am not that jazzed about pvp, i started the game w/out the expectation of pvp. BUt if they are going to add it. If a lvl 50 w/ lots of ho's has a battle w/ a lvl 42, all the ho's get reduced in magnatude to that of dual enhancement so's. Hence that person is no longer as uber as he would be fighting another lvl 50. Still though, the lvl 42 shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of beating someone who is 8 lvl's his senior. So the 50 still having an obvious advantage should be expected.
Now when it comes to fights at their own lvl's. Between 50's and 50's, w/ a rating system as to who's number 1 and who's number 1,345 - there won't be many players in that bottom layer w/ lots of ho's. SO all the players that dont want to participate in aspects of the game will have plenty of people to compete against that don't do raids as well.
If I an elitist player who feels that HO's are totally unfair and i'm ranked 1,234 i should know that taking on a rank 100 player might be a stupid idea. And no matter what no casual player should have an equal opportunity handed to him to be the #1 ranked pvp hero. Selling HO's to players who don't work for them is just that.
And will people stop reiterating the failed conclusion that they can cap HO's to a single attribute and cap the attribute buff to that of a SO....If i wanted an SO in that slot, i'd have something better than a lvl 50 in there, so right there i'd possibly have a disadvantage placed on me cus the other player has 51++ in all his slots while mine now has randomly selected attributes at 50. This idea is as thoughtless as any of my rants, please stop reinventing it in the same thread over and over again people.
The weight classes don't sound like to me like it's goign to be an all out unfair battle for all non hami'fied players. Once rankings start to sort themselves out the ho players and teams will filter to the top where they are pretty much in a class of their own and the non hamified players will beable to fight amongst themselves being able to clearly see where they stand rankwise as a contender.
If the #1 ranked player in his weight class has all HO's, isn't that going to be obvious before a challenge is issued?
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Still though, the lvl 42 shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of beating someone who is 8 lvl's his senior.
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The way it's been structured, he should have *every* expectation of beating someone 8 levels above him - just like a level 12 versus a level 20, or a level 22 versus a level 30.
PvP in the Arena auto-exemplars people into the appropriate weight category.
The odd thing is, all of the arguments being made for how people with HOs put the work in etc. etc. etc. could be applied equally to the disparity in *levels* between PvP combatants. The Arena artificially balances a level 5 who goes up against a level 15, but it doesn't artificially balance an HOed L50 who goes up against a regular L50.
For my part, though, I still think the thing to do is to maximise free choice by making it obvious who has HOs and who doesn't. People with HOs are not going to 'dominate the Arena', simply because people don't have to fight them if they don't want to.
It's extremely unlikely that the #1 ranked player in his weight class will have all HOs. This is because in order to gain rank, you have to fight other people, and in order to fight other people, they have to agree to fight you. If someone has all HOs, practically nobody is going to WANT to fight him, so he won't rise above the ranks of the mediocre.
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/snip
Personaly I am not interested in the solo ranking system. Where I see the real fun is in an out-of-game organised team league. There may be different flavour leagues using different PvP options (HOs or no HOs, travel powers or no travel powers) so as long as we can change the options we can take part in the type of PvP we enjoy. Additionally, I can imagine that these leagues will take place on the test server. This way you can roll a pure PvP build without effecting your PvE build, as long as you keep one respec on your live server you can respec as many times as you like on test to tune your build, plus teams from all servers will be able to compete. And related to this thread, if you want to play in a HO league and a non HO league you can copy your character to the test server twice.
/snip again
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I am guessing this is the way the Dev team sees PvP as well. I am guessing they are hoping for more player leagues and players to make thier own rules and their own fun then Dev controlled leagues.
I am not sure that is a practicaly or realistic though. As a rule of thumb mobs (aka masses of people) are pretty stupid and kinda easy way out.
Which means that I think most players are going to heavily favor the Dev leagues, more so then the Devs probably expect. If for no other reason then neutral arbittration. By creating the leagues the Devs are in effect taking the positions of judges or referees not a poistion I think the Devs want or are expecting but nonetheless that is the case.
This is going to lead to ALOT of "fine tuning" in PvP in general and the league system in particular.
If however the Devs don't want this I would suggest to them to not have any leagues but instead heavily support player based leagues.
The flip side of this is that a player based league will be very he said/she said. Leading to alot of unresolvable squabbles.
My two influence on Hami-o's
First off this is a game, the sole reason I play COH is it is FUN to me, I have fun. I've been on since 1 month after launch. I have two lvl 50s, two accounts, I'm a COH Junky. I've been on one successful Hami raid and did NOT get a Hami-O. Guess what I don't care, I had fun. I've had fun every single new update..sure there are things I don't like as much as someone else. But that doesn't mean someone isnt having fun with it. If you are not having fun then don't play. If you feel that PvP is the ruin, dont PvP, if you feel Hami-o's are better than u, don't fight heroes with them if you think you can't handle defeat. SO WHAT IF SOMEONE BEATS YOU! If you can't handle defeat from another player who is just trying to have fun also, then don't step into the arena. I have played with many of the people on Pinnacle you bash for so called "farming" of Hami-O's. I watched them take down Hami one time right after issue 3 and it was way cooler and with a lot less people than when i did it. It looked a lot harder too, so if Link has 1 million Hami-O's in his "Uber SR" (his own words), I don't care, I would still like to fight someone like that in the arena. I have NO hami-o's and don't plan on attending any more raids, but I will fight anyone in the arena as long as they are out to have FUN! If i beat someone with Hami's cool, if I don't cool as long as the two of us have fun!
Come on Lex please can u put that green rock away so I can kick your human butt real easy!
Hell no I want a challenge, I don't want to fight Skulls in the Arena I want to fight Archvillians!
two words....
GET OVER IT!
p.s. yes i know thats 3.
I'm just going to quote myself... if you've read this, ignore it.
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This whole issue reeks of pie (hopefully SOMEBODY knows what I'm talking about). The arena is something people have been looking foreward to since the game was introduced. In the original forums there were people asking for an x-men style ready room to battle it out in (don't sue me, Marvel), this was before the game even went to the live servers... everyone was still on Prime and they were asking for this. And yet... even with something that people have been asking for for over a year (yes, since before I was even in beta)... they find something to complain about. To this I say 'shut up, I like my pie the way it is... it might not have enough cinnamon in it, but it'll do.'
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/snip
I'll clarify it for you... what he is saying is that until we can actually GET OUR HANDS ON PVP, we cannot tell how it will work and if the numbers are the same for PvP as they are for PvE. More specifically, the exemplar feature. How EXACTLY are HO's going to be effected by being lowered to SO's... are the numbers going to add up to one SO, or are there going to be multiple aspects of the powers that are enhanced as though by an SO? Who knows? Statesman 
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I think it is worth pointing out here that I hardly need to have a simulation run to know that the army with 10k troops has a rather large advantage over the army with 5k.
However I do agree that numbers are never the full story and in fact often lie. So while the basics of a double league should are being worked up go ahead and test HOs and NO HO in duels.
I fully believe that certain types of solid teams No HOers could take down a HO team. I am also fairly sure that a fully HOed MA/Regen scrapper will decimate any other non-HO scrapper in a one on one duel.
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I'm just going to quote myself... if you've read this, ignore it.
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This whole issue reeks of pie (hopefully SOMEBODY knows what I'm talking about). The arena is something people have been looking foreward to since the game was introduced. In the original forums there were people asking for an x-men style ready room to battle it out in (don't sue me, Marvel), this was before the game even went to the live servers... everyone was still on Prime and they were asking for this. And yet... even with something that people have been asking for for over a year (yes, since before I was even in beta)... they find something to complain about. To this I say 'shut up, I like my pie the way it is... it might not have enough cinnamon in it, but it'll do.'
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If you want to ignore possible problem, please do go ahead and stick your head in the sand.
Some of us see a real balance issue here.
Still here, even after all this time!
you could ask them? sure they could lie, but I'm always willing to let people know what they are up against.