sorry, but the low end (1-20) is NOT fun now.
By
7onTest,
Posted on: 2004-09-22 06:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
What we are experiencing (in the lower levels) are bugs and they are working on it
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Pffffttt...
The status effects added to the low level mobs are no friggin'
"bug", at all...
They were an attempt to slide the time scale up on the game and
it backfired big time in their faces.
All that crap was riding on the test server, and they knew exactly
what they had when it went live.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What we are experiencing (in the lower levels) are bugs and they are working on it
[/ QUOTE ]
Pffffttt...
The status effects added to the low level mobs are no friggin'
"bug", at all...
They were an attempt to slide the time scale up on the game and
it backfired big time in their faces.
All that crap was riding on the test server, and they knew exactly
what they had when it went live.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you even read the Dev Digest? They never said anything about increasing the difficulty of the game overall nor the low levels, infact Statesman says just the opposite. What the problem has been for months has been the end-game! All the focus was on the end-game and every post Statesman made about making that more fun for everyone was to increase difficulty and make it so other ATs felt needed. Unless you can quote a post that says otherwise then you're just thinking what you want to think.
Now as far as them "knowing" this in Test and released it anyways, well I played Test and I never noticed the problem...you know why...because I didn't start a new character!! Obviously they don't nearly have enough people playing the Test server than the do with the live as if you are familiar with any type of beta testing there will ALWAYS be bugs that appear when it's released to the general public because the limited scenario testing couldn't pick up on it, or not enough to have a clear understanding of what's wrong. That's why I rerolled my characters because I couldn't see why everyone was so mad about the new update. There isn't a problem in the later game as there is for the soloing lvl 1-20. And it's not even a game-stopping problem either, as far as I have play-tested. Go preach your sermons of Doom over at SWG because at least there it's a little more accurate.
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Unless, of course, you want to claim to actually know what the
man was thinking.
Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
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Okay Veggie-Boy...time to put up or shut-up: Let's see the quotes from Statesman. Or do you claim to know what the man is thinking too.
That's what I thought. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled trolling.
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Let's see the quotes from Statesman.
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here is a quote from statesman
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As I said, the +1 minions are a bug.
The stun/mez/etc. powers in low level villains - that was a Design error. No doubt about it. A mistake - and one we're rectifying now.
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Statesman said that the +1 is a bug and the stun/mez/exc was a design error a mistake. and hes fixing it. give it some time.
Champion Server
Hiruko --Scrapper lvl 50-- katana/regen
Dream Demon--Up and coming MFWarshade
Me and some buddies tried doing those Hollows Outcast missions recently....after a blitz where basically all of us died, we had 0 deaths for 3 more indoor missions in a 5 man group. It was tough as hell and absolutly amazing, and even more amazing when a patrolw ould join the fight.
I had fun.
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Well they are addressing the stun/mez's and the +1 mobs.
However, my level 6 encountered a boss in the Hollows, "Electric Eel" who used Thunder Strike (lvl 18 power) and cast Lightning storm (lvl 32 power) and was surrounded by minions with Ice Blast and heal other. Talk about difficult. Even in a group he was hard because he was surround by more minions and Lts, all with special powers!
There is a fine line between being challenged and being frustrated/angered. 
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I'm there now.. He is one level above me and boss, thats red, and im a scrapper with dark armor, combat jump and maneuvers. First tryk i pop 6 insps, get stuck in the henchie at the door, get him down (while eel still considers what to do), but before i get to him he mezzez me, and three hits me to death (no damage done this try), had saved a big heal for this day but coudlnt use it being mezzed. Try 2, 8 insps, did 55% to him before dying (he has range and I dont and he has better move and the halls arent made for escape here). Back again - he is now fully healed, 9 insps, him down to 5% and out of END (darn lightning) and even then my attacks are coming slowly (darn wind) - he gets the first lucky punch and down again. Back again and again he is full health. Then I call for my SG to come 'clean' the mission. We have tried it with our other characters version of the mission as well and duo'ed in different ways - but so far no luck! This mission should come woth a warning label like "accept this mission now, but dont enter till you have gone up 1 or 2 levels or invite some friend to join AFTER you enter the mission (else it just gets much worse)"
Maybe lowbie scrappers and blasters should stick to the streets for now and forget about missions.
Well.. eventually my SG will answer my cry for help and I can go somewhere else without having this mission reset and/or block my missionlist for levels to come.
PS! I some of you read this right now, give Weissbier on Victory a hand, he has many bulbs and they arent in a pretty color.
//AtCbM// www.crystalblue.dk
Victory - Mare,Dagger of Pain,Keep,Hogun and Bloodpetal
The Keep-Arcs: 164260, 188373, 192610, 196090 and funny side-chapter 218575.
Mender-Arc: 266163
Oh lord..
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before you ever got
your little mitts on it.
They knew exactly what they had.
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I'm sorry, but according to Statesman this is more "fun".
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Context is a wonderful thing, learn to apply it. The bug is being worked on.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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kay Veggie-Boy...time to put up or shut-up: Let's see the quotes from Statesman. Or do you claim to know what the man is thinking too.
That's what I thought. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled trolling.
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Statesman flat out said that the game was too easy and that he
wanted to change it to make increase difficulty and make it more
"fun".
You go dig up the quote, I doubt it even exists anymore since it is
over 30 days old.
"Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before you ever got
your little mitts on it.
They knew exactly what they had."
I have to agree. They knew exactly what was up with the difficulty. Many poeple on the test server told them about the problem. This is a major problem with many people quitting and still know fix.
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The bug is being worked on.
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The ignorance of the gaming populace never ceases to amaze me.
I will reiterate in the hopes of penetrating your neutronium skulls:
Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before any of you
saw it on the player test server.
They knew exactly what they had when they released it.
Now you go on believing it was a "bug" and I will go on believing
that Statesman knew exactly what he had when he published.
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I'm sorry Vegetator but he did not say that. I and Others said that.
What he said is it was not intended.
At least when you make a statment can you not be too full of it.
But still everyone knows I'm right.
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Statesman said prior to the release of Issue #2 that he was
going to up the difficulty to make the game "more fun" in his
opinion.
The status effects are not a bug, it was his idea of more "fun".
Now, feel free to press it further and I will rub your nose in it
some more.
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Wrong! BAD Vegetator! *pushes your nose into it* No spreading misinformation!
</sarcasm>
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1380159
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1369473
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1369465
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1369481
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1369543
Yep! Sure looks intentional! They really want us to feel the pain!.....
Giving the mobs in the lower levels powers: design decision
Giving them plethora of strong stuns: Design error
+1 Level mobs: bug
He even went so far as to say in one of those that they were making *zero* attempts to make the game more difficult at all, for any level(yet....:directed at 32+). Which to me says this is all A. Unintentional and B. Bugs, which they are, and the the real difficulty increase is coming later.
My thoughts on this:
Based on what I've seen in the dev digest from Statesman, I agree with the notion that the +1 mobs in ALL missions are a bug.
I suspect that they recognized the stuns/mezzes/holds were a design flaw, but that they DID originally want to make the game more challenging. The trouble is, stun-happy mobs is not a challenge. It's an annoyance. Yes, there are ways to mitigate that effect, but combine it with +1 bosses and you've got problems.
Combine this ALSO with the fact that BOTH issues impact FAR greater on lower level characters and you've got MAJOR problems.
Think about it. Here's a few issues that plague the low level character:
1.) Very few powers. As a lowbie, you've got usually between 2 and 4 attacks. The more attacks you have, the fewer additional powers you'll be using. Those additional powers might be designed to save you, too. But, you're going up against mobs that have all sorts of attacks and debuffs that you either have no resistances to or have no protection from. Finally, fewer attacks and/or powers in general means fewer tactical options. You're reduced to such "tactics" as the elevator gimmick.
2.) Fewer inspiration slots. Sure, you can stock up on Disciplines. but if you've only got six slots to choose from, and a +1 boss waiting for you, you're gonna need probably half of that insp. tray filled with disciplines to be able to actually AVOID being stunned and such. That means fewer OTHER inspirations like defense, accuracy, rage, etc. All of which means your job is MUCH harder.
3.) Not all ATs even GET resistance/protection powers. Support ATs and especially certain builds can be in major trouble given the additional problems they face. When you're, for example, an emp/rad defender, your powers increase your health and decrease the enemy's defense. That's no real protection. It's basically a time game then -- who runs out of health and endurance first.
Now then, are the missions doable? Sure. They're not IMPOSSIBLE, but they're EXTREMELY frustrating and often NOT possible while the boss is red to you. Hell, orange bosses give me enough of a run for my money.
Much of this depends on who you're fighting and with what build. that in and of itself is a problem. I'm not expecting that all builds can solo or fight at exactly the same levels, but if you get a mission, you ought to be able to solo it. Period. Maybe it takes longer for you than someone else, but it SHOULD be doable. Right now, that's not true for everyone.
LOL, everyone of those quotes is after the fact..
Ya know, a lot of people actually believed OJ too...
the lowbie game is the funnest it has ever been since CoH was released . . . and yet, it is a "bug".
bizzaro mmorg.
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kay Veggie-Boy...time to put up or shut-up: Let's see the quotes from Statesman. Or do you claim to know what the man is thinking too.
That's what I thought. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled trolling.
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman flat out said that the game was too easy and that he
wanted to change it to make increase difficulty and make it more
"fun".
You go dig up the quote, I doubt it even exits anymore since it is
over 30 days old.
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Statesman quote in respone to an old grouping thread:
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A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.
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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.
The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.
The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.
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Again he never said in any post he wanted to change the difficulty of the overall game. You are pulling his quotes out of context because when he talked about increasing difficulty he meant at the higher levels. As far as I'm concerned you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yes the Devs have created this large conspiracy to ruin the game so they would lose money and laugh at the people who flounder about to other MMORPGs that suffer the same "bugs". They released the bugs knowing full well that they were there in an attempt to sabotage everything they have worked so hard to do. (/sarcasm)
Now if I remember correctly I believe there were 3 times as many "Hurry up and release Issue 2" posts than there were "Wait, dont make Issue 2 Live because of this". 90% of the people complaining never even tested it first I would bet. I even mentioned I played on the test server exclusively and never realized the problem till I saw all these kinds of posts pop out. Seriously people stop trying to read into every little thing, at least take comfort in the fact that whatever way the bugs got there..they are going to fix it and it's not like we are unable to play for weeks till they do.
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From DarkArchAngel:
Do you even read the Dev Digest? They never said anything about increasing the difficulty of the game overall nor the low levels, infact Statesman says just the opposite. What the problem has been for months has been the end-game! All the focus was on the end-game and every post Statesman made about making that more fun for everyone was to increase difficulty and make it so other ATs felt needed. Unless you can quote a post that says otherwise then you're just thinking what you want to think.
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I am not a mind reader, but I DO believe that actions speak louder than words. Any Dev in any post can say whatever they wish. When that update rolls out, their true intentions are shown. They have a test server for crying out loud where they supposedly test the rollout and listen to players there and there ideas. I believe words when actions back them up.
I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.
[EDIT]missed a couple of spellings. [/EDIT]
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What we are experiencing (in the lower levels) are bugs and they are working on it
[/ QUOTE ]
Pffffttt...
The status effects added to the low level mobs are no friggin'
"bug", at all...
They were an attempt to slide the time scale up on the game and
it backfired big time in their faces.
All that crap was riding on the test server, and they knew exactly
what they had when it went live.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you even read the Dev Digest? They never said anything about increasing the difficulty of the game overall nor the low levels, infact Statesman says just the opposite. What the problem has been for months has been the end-game! All the focus was on the end-game and every post Statesman made about making that more fun for everyone was to increase difficulty and make it so other ATs felt needed. Unless you can quote a post that says otherwise then you're just thinking what you want to think.
Now as far as them "knowing" this in Test and released it anyways, well I played Test and I never noticed the problem...you know why...because I didn't start a new character!! Obviously they don't nearly have enough people playing the Test server than the do with the live as if you are familiar with any type of beta testing there will ALWAYS be bugs that appear when it's released to the general public because the limited scenario testing couldn't pick up on it, or not enough to have a clear understanding of what's wrong. That's why I rerolled my characters because I couldn't see why everyone was so mad about the new update. There isn't a problem in the later game as there is for the soloing lvl 1-20. And it's not even a game-stopping problem either, as far as I have play-tested. Go preach your sermons of Doom over at SWG because at least there it's a little more accurate.
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I think what his point is though is that all this was on the test server for a while and quite a few people complained about the status effects and the +1 mobs and the difficulty of it all. But it still went live even though people were pointing out, what statesmen, is now calling "bugs". So even if he is telling the truth he actually let known bugs go into the live game. And from the list it was quite a few. I really think this should have stayed in the tester for a couple more weeks. But then again if these bugs suprised them this much I don't think they would have been fixed with more time. They were just not listening to the testers I guess.
Well, I posted about this on another thread.
I still feel that its a little too tough on the low end, but after restarting my Dark Melee / Regen Scrapper (and getting the Isolator badge) I don't see it as completely impossible anymore.
You do have to use tactics, but it is possible to solo missions at low levels (2-4) against mostly White and Yellow Minions and Orange Bosses.
I got 2 Vahz missions in a row from my contact and was dreading them from the start. I'm not sure if Zombie Vomit has been assigned to a damage type yet, but when it wasn't I saw it make short work of many a hero.
I loaded up on Inspirations and headed out.
Since most of the groups of White / Yellow Zombies didn't have a Lt in them, I could safely pull singles by running up and hitting one, then back out unti it followed.
The groups that I had a problem with were the Yellow and Orange Lts with 1-2 Yellow or White Zombies with them. For those, I popped Luckx2, Acc, Dmg and charged the boss. When the boss dropped, I ran out until I could fully heal then went back to the zombies which I could then single pull.
In those two missions I only had one death, but that was basically due to an Alpha Strike.
I still feel the game is a bit too tough at the lower level, but after re-doing my build and using good tactics and Inspirations they are doable.......and I will say the exp is nice too.
T
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From DarkArchAngel:
Do you even read the Dev Digest? They never said anything about increasing the difficulty of the game overall nor the low levels, infact Statesman says just the opposite. What the problem has been for months has been the end-game! All the focus was on the end-game and every post Statesman made about making that more fun for everyone was to increase difficulty and make it so other ATs felt needed. Unless you can quote a post that says otherwise then you're just thinking what you want to think.
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I am not a mind reader, but I DO believe that actions speak louder than words. Any Dev in any post can say whatever they wish. When that update rolls out, their true intentions are shown. They have a test server for crying out loud where they supposedly test the rollout and listen to players there and there ideas. I believe words when actions back them up.
I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.
[EDIT]missed a couple of spellings. [/EDIT]
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Ok I won't deny the existence of the problem if that's what you mean by actions. This isn't a really good analogy in comparing with this kind of debate, I mean did you actually see Stateman code the bugs in? You see a result, not an "action"...of course what this really boils down to is how this result came to be. Is it a bug that was not caught that will be fixed or was it known prior and put in intentionally in order to datamine and then fix it accordingly. Honestly, how many new characters were created during the testing phase, I doubt very many. How many of these posts are from testers that saw this and warned them ahead of time...not very many. My point is I don't think it was as clear as you all are making it out to be. I tested it myself and I never knew there were ANY problems until I rolled a new Scrapper. I didn't even see a problem in my new Defender so obviously this isn't a game-stopping bug nor is it really specific as it's only applying to a specific solo crowd. Maybe I should have paid attention more to the Test Server Forum but I don't remember seeing any of these kind of threads there either. Not until it went live. Please someone who posted in the Test Server prior to this going live stating the problems post a link so I can see it and maybe we can have a legit debate on the pre20 level difficulty.
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The bug is being worked on.
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The ignorance of the gaming populace never ceases to amaze me.
I will reiterate in the hopes of penetrating your neutronium skulls:
Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before any of you
saw it on the player test server.
They knew exactly what they had when they released it.
Now you go on believing it was a "bug" and I will go on believing
that Statesman knew exactly what he had when he published.
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I agree the ignorance is amazing. How you can think that regardless of internal testing that things don't slip through. This has happened in every piece of software I can think of regardless of how long testing was. Most bugs are never found until exposed by a larger group. Its statistics. A group of 100 testers are likely to find more bugs in a given amount of time than a group of 10. You all must have no business or programming experience at all to think otherwise, sounds like just a bunch of unrealistic end-users. Better wake up, take the red pill, or do something to realize how the real world operates and things are never going to be perfect to suit your needs. Go on believing Statesman personally screwed you if it makes you feel better.
[ QUOTE ]
The ignorance of the gaming populace never ceases to amaze me.
I will reiterate in the hopes of penetrating your neutronium skulls:
Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before any of you
saw it on the player test server.
They knew exactly what they had when they released it.
Now you go on believing it was a "bug" and I will go on believing
that Statesman knew exactly what he had when he published.
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Dear, dear Vegie: Do know that Issue 2 was released with known and unknown bugs. However, you still use rather selective statements out of their overall context to support your trolling exercise.
Statesman comment 1
Statesman comment 2
There are others as well.
Valdermic on bugs... Perhaps you should consider all things carefully before you speak as if you were the authority on peoples intentions and motives.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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From DarkArchAngel:
Ok I won't deny the existence of the problem if that's what you mean by actions. This isn't a really good analogy in comparing with this kind of debate, I mean did you actually see Stateman code the bugs in? You see a result, not an "action"...of course what this really boils down to is how this result came to be. Is it a bug that was not caught that will be fixed or was it known prior and put in intentionally in order to datamine and then fix it accordingly. Honestly, how many new characters were created during the testing phase, I doubt very many. How many of these posts are from testers that saw this and warned them ahead of time...not very many. My point is I don't think it was as clear as you all are making it out to be. I tested it myself and I never knew there were ANY problems until I rolled a new Scrapper. I didn't even see a problem in my new Defender so obviously this isn't a game-stopping bug nor is it really specific as it's only applying to a specific solo crowd. Maybe I should have paid attention more to the Test Server Forum but I don't remember seeing any of these kind of threads there either. Not until it went live. Please someone who posted in the Test Server prior to this going live stating the problems post a link so I can see it and maybe we can have a legit debate on the pre20 level difficulty.
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I do not know this for fact for I did not play on the Test Server nor read the Training Room boards. I have "heard" that the players who DID play there /bugged the Devs about the low end bugs. The devs apparently were aware of the problems. If ONE /bug report comes through, doesn't that warrant at least a look into by the Devs? Statesman appears to be the "idea man" behind CoH so that makes HIM accountable for what is put out live.
I do echo your thoughts on finding REAL information about what went on pre-issue 2 on the test server. I have to admit that much of my ire is based upon assumptions and heresay. I may be looking for that because of my dislike of where the game is heading with all the new status items. Status items just rub me the wrong way.
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I have a 36 controller, 32 blaster, 24 scrapper, 22 blaster, 17 defender, 13 defender, 13 scrapper, and 7 scrapper, and many more deleted.
I play very well and know how to play. There is not much you can do when you are held or continually stunned no matter how many "tactics" you plan to use.
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All of your toons except for the blasters have access to status protection powers. Did you just skip them? Do you ever use the Discipline inspirations that drop constantly?
I can understand that the increase in status effects has surprised many people. What I don't understand is how people fail to notice that the tools to deal with them have been in the game all along.
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Actually they all have the status protection they can take, but we are talking of the lower lvls and you do not even have chance to take them at those lvls. My lvl 7 is a MA/Regen and you do not get integration until lvl 16 or 18, I forget.
My concern is not for the higher lvl game, but the 1-15 lvls that seem to be effected the most by this change to mob powers.
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Because I think
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And thus you lose again...
Unless, of course, you want to claim to actually know what the
man was thinking.
Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
Care to give it another shot ?
I know you like the attention, so I'll continue to rub your face on
the ground if you want me to..
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Yeaaaaah Whatever...
lol
I'm going to play the game now. Thanks, see ya. Have a good day all.