Statesman: Please don't make this mistake

pwned.
Well said Carmilla.

*sidenote- I HATE the Matrix.*

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just enough damage so that a team leader can feel good about choose a Tanker or over a Scrapper... Tanks are happy and Scrappers are happy - this is how it's SUPPOSED TO BE DONE IMO...

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And thus, an new problem surfaces.
WHY in the world take a Scrapper, when a Tanker can:

A: Survive longer, higher HPs and defenses than Scrapper = less worries for Defenders and other teammates.
B: TANK. They keep the aggro off of the other players easily with the upcoming changes.
C: Have decent damage, not quite as high as Scrappers, supposedly, but it's still decent. Small tradeoff for your team's safety.

Why would anyone want a weak Scrapper with lower damage than a blaster, when they could pick up a Tank, and keep themselves safe?

Criticals? Nah, an occasional chance to do higher damage is nothing compared to a blaster's consistantly higher overall damage.

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That's a valid concern... However, maybe this way people will pick Scrappers for what they are meant for, stable melee damage dealers who can hold their own... As of now, Scrappers are being use to be Tankers, after these changes maybe they'll be used to be the damage dealers they are...

If that's the case, I'd like to see us Scrappers get a damage boost other than criticals then, to keep up with Blasters and Tanks.
Because, from the looks of it, Scrappers are going to get hit pretty hard.

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If that's the case, I'd like to see us Scrappers get a damage boost other than criticals then, to keep up with Blasters and Tanks.
Because, from the looks of it, Scrappers are going to get hit pretty hard.

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Scrappers already do tons of damage and Scrapper critical hit percentage is getting increased... Not to mention power pool attacks are now going to do critical hits for Scrappers... What more do you need?... Every Scrapper that has Hasten (actually what Scrapper DOESN'T have Hasten) is looking at doing critical damage atleast once every 3 attacks...

So I wouldn't worry, Scrapper damage is still and still will be superior to Tanker damage and still on par with non-AOE abusing Blasters...

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History Courses are classes taught By the Ignorant to the More ignorant?

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If you know anything about history, you know that more than
one version exists to most historical stories.

So, in essence, yes history classes are often taught by the
ignorant to the even more ignorant.

Simple case in point:

Japanese school children are taught that the United States
dropped nuclear weapons on them for no reason.

History is shaped by the victors and the tellers.

The truth is often never known.

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LOL..OH My god... good one, But...you're still an idiot.

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Gardvord Bows, and immediately sends Caliban over to Carmilla's apartment.

Don't try to troll the master !!!

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Then the perception needs to change. If it's stronger, it's stronger. The perception is where the problem is, not in the proposed change.

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No it's not the perception where the problem is, cause the perception *is* the game.

Because of things like this, Levels in a game will never be any more than a crutch. This whole discussion wouldn't happen if "power" wasn't measured on this arbitrary scale - and *must at all times be preserved*.

Up to now, the "overscaling" of the heroes relative to the mobs did a nice job to play down the shortcomings of the level system. If the paradigm 3 minions : 1 hero is held to no matter what the cost, that's no longer the case. People start to "perceive" their heroes differently and many might have less fun ultimately.

Also, the level scaling in CoH makes little sense - a level 6 hero could take on level 4 hellions safely, level 6 hellions with some risk, level 8 hellions with great risk, and level 10 hellions with no chance. And all the time, each hellion punches, shoots and swings just like the next hellion. There's your perception.

Nothing makes the level 10 hellion more "special" or "different" than the level 4 one.

This is true for every faction of course, across all levles, cause we're deadlocked in the -2 level to +4 level range to earn XP at all. *This* is what people see, this range is their "relative challenge" from their viewpoint. The true level difference at level 38 to the level 1 hellion is meaningless subjectively.

Level is what gets you new powers, con color is the "threat" or "challenge". Once you're able to move up this subjective *challenge* level (NOT the level difference!) is when you feel like making progress.

Kind of high-horseish to demand everyone's perception to change, cause you see it differently....

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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?


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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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You should put that XP bump quote in your signature.

People around here have the reading retention of a Fig Newton.

Statesman said:
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In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.

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Yeah, cuz we were levelling WAY too fast in the higher levels anyways - heck I might even gain a level within two weeks!

/sarcasm

Basic Point: I don't care what level I *fight*, only how FAST (or in this case, how GLACIALLY SLOW) I level.

Statesman, do anything you like, just make the levelling FASTER in the higher levels, not SLOWER.

-LM

This whole argument is based on perception. The idea that it is more fun to fight mobs who con red simple becuase they con red is ludicrous - and that's what everyone is arguing for.

Once you reach level 20 or 30 or so, you have to fight red mobs just to make it interesting and get decent XP. This does not make you more powerful, it means the mobs of your own level are too wimpy.

If you took the approach or re-programming the game so that once you hit level 20, mobs 3 levels higher than you con white instead of red, the argument here is that this would be less fun because now you are fighting even-con mobs again, just like you did at level 1. This is just plain silly, but that's what half the posts in this thread are saying.

The fix to the problem is essentially to take the mobs that are red just as they are and change their level. If they made it so that a level 20 mob had the same powers, hit point, and ability as a level 23 mobs do right now, and give the same XP, all the problems go away. Your missions would now be filled with challenging mobs, and street-sweepers could go hunting even-con mobs for the same XP and challenge that they get for reds now.

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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?


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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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You should put that XP bump quote in your signature.

People around here have the reading retention of a Fig Newton.

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One thing I've NEVER seen in a game is the xp return/time increased proportionally to the decrease in performance of the characters fighting the mobs. Typically, you see drastic reductions in power, minor to moderate bumps for weak abilities, and a minor to moderate bump in xp. This leads the overall result to be slightly better or no gain for the worst off, and drastically reduced results for the best off.

I could be overly cynical (I prefer realist) however they're already doing that. Bosses and Lt's are being made more difficult to kill, while the best hero's are becoming weaker, and there is no increase in XP coming for those same bosses/lts, or compensation elsewhere in powersets for the nerfs/fixes/whatever being handed down to Illusion, Fire Control, Kinetics, Devices or whatever else I'm missing thats being neutered.

So, basically what I've said will probably happen, has actually started happening with Issue2 already, albeit slowly.

Theres so many factors that go in to xp/time, and the factors aren't even consistent across powersets.

Regardless, my biggest issue is, I don't care even if it ends up being the same xp for killing 3 whites as I used to get for killing 10 oranges - I have more fun killing oranges and feel more superheroish and I LIKE the scaling in relative power.

Everyone might not feel thats important, but a significant portion of the game does, just simply talk to people in a random team in the 20s and ask them (thats what I've been doing).

That is how I understand the proposed changes, and provided the purple patch does not change (+5 and up are impossible to kill) under the new system then I am all for it.

Whatever allows people to still solo at the same rate, if they choose to, AND allows large teams to form and be able to take on challenging fights is what I want. I believe this is the intent of Statesmans posts.

If I'm wrong, then I don't yet understand what has been proposed and I don't know if I will like it or not.

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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?


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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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You should put that XP bump quote in your signature.

People around here have the reading retention of a Fig Newton.

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One thing I've NEVER seen in a game is the xp return/time increased proportionally to the decrease in performance of the characters fighting the mobs. Typically, you see drastic reductions in power, minor to moderate bumps for weak abilities, and a minor to moderate bump in xp. This leads the overall result to be slightly better or no gain for the worst off, and drastically reduced results for the best off.

I could be overly cynical (I prefer realist) however they're already doing that. Bosses and Lt's are being made more difficult to kill, while the best hero's are becoming weaker, and there is no increase in XP coming for those same bosses/lts, or compensation elsewhere in powersets for the nerfs/fixes/whatever being handed down to Illusion, Fire Control, Kinetics, Devices or whatever else I'm missing thats being neutered.

So, basically what I've said will probably happen, has actually started happening with Issue2 already, albeit slowly.

Theres so many factors that go in to xp/time, and the factors aren't even consistent across powersets.

Regardless, my biggest issue is, I don't care even if it ends up being the same xp for killing 3 whites as I used to get for killing 10 oranges - I have more fun killing oranges and feel more superheroish and I LIKE the scaling in relative power.

Everyone might not feel thats important, but a significant portion of the game does, just simply talk to people in a random team in the 20s and ask them (thats what I've been doing).

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There is something fundamentally flawed with this. You (and a lot of others here) are basically saying that the only thing that matters to you when you fight a villain is that the villain cons higher than you. BUT THIS IS AN ILLUSION! The orange mobs you are fighting now are NOT tougher than you. They are not tougher than any hero who is the same level as you.

You are basically saying that the CON color of a villain should LIE to you and tell you that the villain is stronger than you when it is actually not. And somehow, this makes you feel more heroic?

As for me, I would rather face a villain that is actually as strong as my hero and is actually a challenge to fight rather than a villain that is artificially represented as being as strong as me but is really about as tough as my left pinky.

If it make you feel better to delude yourself and beleive you are fighting tougher villains, then why not make Every villain in the game con purple? Then you would feel great about beating up level 1's. Woo-Hoo! Wouldn't that be fun?

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Simple, one word.
Marketing.

If they don't create something that doesnt fly with its consumers, then they're doomed to failure.
That's why you see so many fast food commercials, toy commercials, ads, EVERYWHERE.

Companies listen to complaints, and from there, they will adjust the product accordingly.
They also conform to certain trends in the market. I.E, the whole "Low Carb" BS. Just about every top-10 fast food chain has low carb options. And it spans beyond just fast food.

Marketing is the keyword.
If CoH pisses off their market, they have no more income, and no more game.
THAT'S why the listen to their players.

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Wow you're naive.

No, I'm an executive for a software company. We listen to customer feedback. We analyze customer's actions. We do polls and studies. WE DO NOT BEND TO THE WILL OF ANY 1 CUSTOMER OR GROUP OF CUSTOMERS. If you can't tell the difference, that's your problem.

See I have the perspective of actually judging your actions, not your words. In the world of marketing that's what really matters! I can also judge the needs and actions of all 100,000 of my customers, vs the 1 person who knows what "THEY" want, and generalize that it must be what everyone else wants. That's seldom true.

Consumers don't design jack. They lack the skill, simple as that. I'm a pretty bright guy, but I don't tell my doctor how to perform surgery, no matter how much I think I know my body. Ultimately, I've got to trust the guy who spent 10 years honing his art.

Now, if this was a corporate project where I was paying someone 6-7 + figures... Yeah I do participate in the design process then. Hell I get the final say so then.... But $10 a month is NOT the same as $200/hour for labor alone.

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Sorry but he was nominated fanboy of the quarter long ago by almost 60% of the board

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Here's a lesson on manipulating statistics, friends. Just take "me and a couple other trolls," and replace it with "almost 60%," and there you have it! Instant support for your argument!

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his profile is filled with lies.

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Filled? Really? Filled? Like, my profile isn't even that long. Maybe you could enlighten me; I'll be glad to make appropriate adjustments. Also, feel free to let me know how you got this information. I mean, that is, unless you just made it up because you're a bitter little troll with nothing better to post.

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Companies listen to complaints, and from there, they will adjust the product accordingly.

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Yes, I know a lot of companies who make adjustments to their products based on the complaints of 0.05% of their customers. Wait, no I don't, because they all went out of business when they lost the other 99.95%.

Honestly. Get it through your head. The forum "whiners" do not represent Cryptic's demographic. They are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction... they are insignificant. They are not driving development. They are, for all intents and purposes, ignored.

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Even if experience is increased ALOT for minions, leveling will not be fun just killing pack of three minions after three minions.

Yet another poor choice by the devs.

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Haha. More bang-up logic. Somehow we're supposed to accept that it will "not be fun" to kill three minions, but that it would be okay if we were killing, what, ten, or fifteen? Even if it's the same amount of challenge, risk, time and reward? Why, exactly, 'cause there's more pictures on the screen? Haha.

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That is why I have credibility and Bladewraith doesn't. My post is backed up by facts, Bladewraiths isn't. He has been offered the chance to prove himself to be above the game mechanics but instead chooses not to

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Sorry hombre, just pointing out someone else's (possible) lie doesn't give YOU any more credibility.

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Even if experience is increased ALOT for minions, leveling will not be fun just killing pack of three minions after three minions.

Yet another poor choice by the devs.

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What if they just renamed minions, "Micro Ubber Gods", would that make you feel better?

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just enough damage so that a team leader can feel good about choose a Tanker or over a Scrapper... Tanks are happy and Scrappers are happy - this is how it's SUPPOSED TO BE DONE IMO...

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And thus, an new problem surfaces.
WHY in the world take a Scrapper, when a Tanker can:

A: Survive longer, higher HPs and defenses than Scrapper = less worries for Defenders and other teammates.
B: TANK. They keep the aggro off of the other players easily with the upcoming changes.
C: Have decent damage, not quite as high as Scrappers, supposedly, but it's still decent. Small tradeoff for your team's safety.

Why would anyone want a weak Scrapper with lower damage than a blaster, when they could pick up a Tank, and keep themselves safe?

Criticals? Nah, an occasional chance to do higher damage is nothing compared to a blaster's consistantly higher overall damage.

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Well, scrappers ARE SUPPOSED TO BE solo proficient. Thats the big upside to being a scrapper. The downside is they don't have as pronounced a role in groups.

First, it isn't a possible lie, it is a lie

I would have thought that making a factual post to refute someone elses blatant lie of a post would lend me credibility and remove his.

Welcome to reality

When you say things get easier, are you accounting for what you have to do to progress your toon?

Some of us like to get new powers once in a while, even if they will get changed later on. If you find the right level mobs to progress, it doesn't seem easier to me.

My heroes still die about once a day on the average, even my controller. And trust me, I'm not the only one

If you fight "same level" mobs, then I agree it will be much easier. But how often will you gain a level?

It's not uncommon to gain 7 levels in your first day as a new character. If you do this with a 30th level, then you are a better player than I.

Futhermore, past 30, you tend to get a power every three levels instead of every two. Combine this with slow advancement at high levels. If they tweak high level mobs to the point where you are basically encouraged to fight at "your level", that could backfire.

I realize you have to limit the XP because there's not a lot to do after you are 50th, but I don't think it will be to anyone's advantage to slow the advancement of 30th levels TOO much.

Wouldn't we be better off letting 30+ lvl's feel powerful, and be able to get better XP from higher monsters, and then hope that maybe they bring a 2nd char up to 50 if the first one tends to advance fast.
I guess the questions I would ask about the mods are:
1. would high level types still feel as powerful? I think they should be.
2. would this change slow down the level advancement for high-level chars? Will this result in people getting bored, and feeling like they are running in place?

If there are answers to these questions, then that would help.

That's why I generally think game changes are a mistake if the game is fun. There are too many chances to mess up a good thing, and if you change the high level experience too much, then the people that obviously liked that experience (since they apparently stuck around) are the ones that might not like the change. The more you change it, the more it seems that risk will be.

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I would have thought that making a factual post to refute someone elses blatant lie of a post would lend me credibility and remove his.

Welcome to reality

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Haha. What reality is that, exactly? Sorry, man. Pointing out that someone else is a liar or a cheat or a thief doesn't give anyone with common sense any reason to believe that you're not any one of those things.

You earn respect by being honest, not by revealing dishonesty in others.

Kruschev,

I've read several of your posts, and I have to say I pretty much agree with all of them.

The game was fun, more so in the past than it is now in my opinion. It's still fun, but everything is in the process of getting equalized a bit too much for my taste, from the powers and various arch-types to what level foes we can effectively fight. Personally, I think there are too many changes for this point in the game cycle, but that seems to be an MMO thing.
I would prefer that some of this be done in the "next" great game, but hey, I'm just a subscriber CoH doesn't feel wild and free anymore, and the highest suspense now is more "how effective will my 75 hours worth of character development be today" or "will 33rd lvl mobs suddenly kill my 30th today"
I think in the past, what one person might call a "minor exploit" we might have called exciting new fun. But others maybe see it as a way they are "getting behind", and I know someone that wasn't really happy about that either. I won't say what they did about it, because that's supposedly trolling. People don't like to get behind, and they don't like to see people that are more powerful than they are, and there's not much that anyone can do about it. I guess what it comes down to is it's a tough balancing act the Dev's have to perform.

There ARE a lot of people that enjoy building more powerful characters, learning the world and it's systems, and making a fourth toon that is more effective and fun than your first three. Why would a model of reality like this be that much different from reality? People enjoy being successful, it's a fact of life.

It seems like a lot of the people that have invested time in high level characters don't like having their hard-won powers reduced, but there are a lot of *new* characters out there in MMOs that don't like the fact that some of the old hands know the system better than they do and are more effective.

I think the problem is that people like us get outnumbered as part of naturally MMO progression, and the more the Devs change the game, the more we will get outnumbered as a certain percentage of our high-level SGs clear out.

Rest assured, there are others out there like you that liked the old game.

Unfortuntely, I do not think the Devs are willing to set up a "classic" server for us high-levels, so we will just have to keep playing as long as the fun outweighs the changes designed to equalize/bland us all.

To all things there is a cycle. So far, mine still involves CoH. It has not gotten to be a grind yet. Of course, my controller is not an "optimum" character, so that helps. I think she has only been nerfed twice, as far as I know at least. Actually, I think she's due for an Empathy buf in Issue 2, which will help. I have to admit I don't mind being on the receiving end of a buf. However, I would personally rather do without any buffs and just enjoy the game the way it was a month ago. I like a steady universe, because I am a power/saga/consistency type player. Having hero powers go up and down through no action of their own seems a little distasteful/dishonest to me. To each their own.

Like someone out here said, the fun is what really matters. We'll see what Issue 2 brings. If my two main characters here are still fun, then I'll stick around. If I have to start from scratch, or it gets to be a drag, then it's been a good run
Perhaps part of the cycle is letting new blood create a new balance, so that the experienced people don't get too much of an advantage. Does anyone know off hand the stats on the average level and average stay time of the toons/players?

I've read enough of these boards and the dev responses at this point to know we aren't going to stop it, and nerfs are still going to be of "significant" proportions, probably all the way until the product is retired.

Since we are five months in now, and I have a hard time believing a lot of these items "just" became unbalanced, we have to accept that people will "always" be finding new ways to get more effective uses of existing powers, and they will always get shot down when other people see it. That seems to be an immutable MMO thing. Stick with it as long as you are having fun, and play an old "boxed" game like I do if the universe gets a bit too "mutable" for you to believe in

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How about players just accept that the game is about to get a little more challenging? Strap in.

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Hehe well said. I don't understand why players aren't more excited about these changes.

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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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You should put that XP bump quote in your signature.

People around here have the reading retention of a Fig Newton.

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What ?

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How about players just accept that the game is about to get a little more challenging? Strap in.

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Hehe well said. I don't understand why players aren't more excited about these changes.

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Yeah, I agree. Oh by the way, that Ferrari that you've been driving for a year is due for maintenance. We're going to put in a Yugo engine. Just look at it as more of a challenge to get it up to 100MPH...

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I've seen a lot of posts from you about how you want us to play the game.

You really, really, want to think carefully about forcing the players to your vision.

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I constanly update my SG... if they're off for 21 days, I don't want them anyways.

Now to adress the main topic:

If you don't like a game... don't play it. It's really that simple. I hated Halo2 so I traded it in. I didn't go on the forums and tell the developers how to do their jobs. Get a life dude. Play the game or leave.


I stopped here in hilarious laughter.

Developers make games in order to realize their vision in the form of a game. That's why they do it. That's the whole [censored] point to the job. If you don't like their vision, then don't play their game.

What's the alternative? Your vision?

Haha.

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Are you a SOE dev?

Seriously though, a dev of one of these games does make a game to their vision, then a bunch of people like playing it a way slightly differently than they intended and you decide you dont' like that and make changes to force them to play it your way... well... don't be surprised if their fun factor is cut down.

Players who aren't having as much fun eventually leave, and that includes people who make the game fun for others(friends, SGmates, etc)

My SG used to be made up of ~10 guys from work and ~5 other RL friends/spouses.

From 15 people at release, there are now 4 active accounts in my SG. Thats just barely a 25% retention rate after 3 months.

How is everyone elses SG doing?

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