Posi Confirms: COH Largest and Most Active MMO Ever Shut Down
The real problem is that players of MMOs have no legal rights to the virtual goods they paid real money for. Millions of people are currently paying billions of dollars for costume unlocks, powersets, vehicles and the like, in games like CoH, STO, Champions Online, WoW, yet these companies could pull the plug on these games at any time, completely trashing billions of dollars in virtual investments. That's really what's wrong here.
If you want to make a real difference, start a campaign to get national legislation passed regarding the legal rights of digital citizens, the money we pay for creating and outfitting our virtual characters, and the many hours we put into creating them. |
Secondly there's the issue that laws would only apply to companies in the country of origin. If (for example) the US passed such laws companies like NCSoft would be pretty easily able to avoid them because they aren't located in the US. Even if players were in the US the company could probably have their business offices in another country and avoid technically doing business in the US.
This made me chuckle but only because I'm a damned cynic as well.
I've found that all the SaveCoH stuff, while well meant, has already died. Our game is already on life support and the plug is being pulled in one month. While it was nice to hear that ![]() ![]() ![]() Everything dies. Sometimes before they should, sometimes not nearly damn soon enough. I've loved this game. I'm sad to see it die but you can't have life without death. |
Now see....THIS is a post that isn't trollish. It isn't condemning, nor sarcastic....nor does it reek of someone trying to earn their paycheck from NCSoft. Kudos, Bill.
![](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcd8t3hizL1qeh80v.gif)
![](http://images.didioffendyou.com/1/1074fe21c7d8ae9e.jpg)
-Female Player-
And what exactly would you do about in-game virtual goods once a game is closed? And mind you, it has to be something that doesn't prevent companies from wanting to do business at all. Therefore, you can't write laws that force them to keep games open forever or to refund all virtual purchases when the game closes. Or rather, you could, but then game companies simply wouldn't make these games in the first place. Not where these laws exist anyway.
|
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
I wouldn't be against the idea of an offline mode but the relevant question is, "Why should they be forced to provide one?" In a competitive market like this, shouldn't this be something that is driven by consumer demand rather than legislation?
|
Many people believe consumers are only supposed to have positive reinforcement rights: they can buy a company's products, or they can choose not to, but that's all they are entitled to do. Those people are wrong.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
...Positron takes the time to tell us that CoH is the largest MMO ever killed. Take that air in a second... Positron, who is in the industry, says that CoH is the most healthy MMO ever killed.
|
Not sure if Positron meant it that way or not but the way you paraphrased it, might be altering the meaning a bit.
Largest playerbase among the defunct MMOs is not quite the same connotation as "most healthy mmo" although it's close. I suppose prior to CoX, SWG may have been considered to be the largest mmo among the shuttered ones at the time...or close to TR. Not sure, TR as Gangrel guessed could be about 37k subscribers but SWG is not known. Sony doesn't itemize their game revenue in their reports that i saw.
---
On another note, that interview brought up something not mentioned in the thread yet but could be another hint for us about their cost.
Their discussion turned to kickstarters in general, but then later Positron commented this:
118:53 If paragon studios have a crazy kickstarter, we're talking like half a million at least! 119:19 That would be enough to..ah...to continue development for a certain period of time...ah...and, hopefully to attract some angel investors, attract some venture capital...ah, in there. |
Could that mean that somewhere between $500 - $1 mil would be what's needed to run Paragon for at least 1 month with most if not all of the 80 staff they had?
Any number crunchers around?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
My usual calculation is (Σ(Yearly Salaries * 2)) * Number of employees * Length of development in years
Multiplying everyone's salary by two allows you to cover the additional expenses of operation, although this might only apply to single player games.
![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Quinsisdos/SMSMacrossQuarter.png)
Hmm, well even if that can be used for mmo development, not sure we can apply that to the hint given about $500k minimum for a certain period. We're not sure of their yearly salaries, how long that "period" is and even if Positron meant all of the 80 employees or a partial crew.
Does that clue get us any closer to figuring out their monthly/quarterly cost?
This made me chuckle but only because I'm a damned cynic as well.
I've found that all the SaveCoH stuff, while well meant, has already died. Our game is already on life support and the plug is being pulled in one month. While it was nice to hear that ![]() ![]() ![]() Everything dies. Sometimes before they should, sometimes not nearly damn soon enough. I've loved this game. I'm sad to see it die but you can't have life without death. |
They shouldn't be forced to legally, but the presumption is that consumers have the ability to reward and punish desirable and undesirable behavior. So people saying its childish to "bad-mouth" NCsoft or boycott their products are denigrating the only feedback paths consumers have in this situation to exercise the rights the free market presumes them to have.
Many people believe consumers are only supposed to have positive reinforcement rights: they can buy a company's products, or they can choose not to, but that's all they are entitled to do. Those people are wrong. |
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
They shouldn't be forced to legally, but the presumption is that consumers have the ability to reward and punish desirable and undesirable behavior. So people saying its childish to "bad-mouth" NCsoft or boycott their products are denigrating the only feedback paths consumers have in this situation to exercise the rights the free market presumes them to have.
Many people believe consumers are only supposed to have positive reinforcement rights: they can buy a company's products, or they can choose not to, but that's all they are entitled to do. Those people are wrong. |
Culex's resistance guide
Fortunately, what I write is on the back of her head, so everything that she types come from herself.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Don't suppose you can break that down a bit with more detail...or equate that to a monthly cost figure would be easier to relate to.
|
I should also point out that Matt's off-handed statement seems to imply that Paragon Studios was most definitely burning through more than half a million a quarter ($2M/yr) but probably not burning through more than half a million every month** ($6M). That entire range of values would make City of Heroes profitable, and my best estimate lands approximately in the center of that range.
** That number isn't arbitrary. You can certainly do a deal in a month, but not likely one of this scale in a week. Matt's comment implies $500k will therefore last more than a week, but it could last only a month. And most people doing rough guestimates in their head round off to simple time windows, as opposed to thinking about how much three weeks would cost, say.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Hmm, i would've thought that posi hint would get more bites. Well, while waiting for someone else to post more info, i've been doing some digging and found this:
A typical small- to mid-sized game studio consists of 15–30 people. At an average monthly burn rate of $10,000 per person, that puts the personnel expenses between $150,000 and $300,000 per month. |
So possibly, their quarterly cost could be from $1.5mil ($500k/mo) to $2.4mil ($800k/mo)...does that sound right to anyone else?
[Edit]
If that is anywhere close to true, using CoX's last quarter revenue (2Q12) of $2,469,437...a possible ballpark guesstimate for CoX's profit could be from $23k/mo to $323k/mo.
[/Edit]
EDIT: Just saw your reply Arcana, thanks for that. What about the $10k/mo/person statement from the link above. The author appears to be an app developer so not sure about his knowledge of MMO dev studios, but does that sound reasonable?
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Yeah the last thing we need is MORE legislation. I knew my paragon point purchases were only useful as long as the game was running...I don't need some law to "protect" me because I am an adult and quite capable of making a rational financial decision regarding virtual goods.
Then it's good I wasn't saying anything of the sort, isn't it? The only point I was making in my reply was that what we don't need is legislation that could do more harm than good when this is the sort of thing that can be handled by consumer actions, whether those are buying decisions or merely attempts to generate bad publicity. If there are enough upset people to tarnish the company's brand via protests then that brand deserves to be tarnished.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
While a law to do that sounds like a nice idea, it wont be in practice. You think games now are trying to be WoW or WoW is the only one of it's kind? With that law, Game makers will take their buisness elsewhere, stop maling games for here or build games that are imatation of the most successful one to minimize risks.
They wont come up with risky ideas with laws that make those ideas not even worth the risk.
If a law like that existed prior to COX, then I can bet that COX would have never existed and instead of been a reskinned WoW grind fest.
-Female Player-
While a law to do that sounds like a nice idea, it wont be in practice. You think games now are trying to be WoW or WoW is the only one of it's kind? With that law, Game makers will take their buisness elsewhere, stop maling games for here or build games that are imatation of the most successful one to minimize risks.
They wont come up with risky ideas with laws that make those ideas not even worth the risk. If a law like that existed prior to COX, then I can bet that COX would have never existed and instead of been a reskinned WoW grind fest. |
Sorry but selling something to someone one day then taking it away the next cause it's digital and your EULA BS said you could should be criminal and I hope one day it is.
Nothing makes me feel better.
This made me chuckle but only because I'm a damned cynic as well.
I've found that all the SaveCoH stuff, while well meant, has already died. Our game is already on life support and the plug is being pulled in one month.
While it was nice to hear that
Everything dies. Sometimes before they should, sometimes not nearly damn soon enough. I've loved this game. I'm sad to see it die but you can't have life without death.
Be well, people of CoH.