The Final Doctor Who thread (expect spoilers!)
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-09-01 24:20 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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? No, I think she was just incredible doing that.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah, only a genius could retain her human conciousness and sanity after being converted into a Dalek.
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Just woke up and checked my email and saw the second episode is ready for downloading on Itunes. Squee!
I loved DoaS. Much more fun than the dull Dalek effort.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Throwaway lines never mean "nothing" on Doctor Who.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
There was some potential here too. They had a great smoking gun in the vid log that described how all species were thriving -except one-. That could've easily been the Silurians. Rather than have Solomon mass murdering them he could've simply come upon a ghost ship, Amy and the others even ponder if there was a plague that wiped them out. Instead it's just a throwaway line that means nothing.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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He gave the guy a chance to save himself. Multiple chances to save himself. He gave him every opportunity to walk away. That was not murder, it was assisted suicide.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
The end was a bit shocking too. That's something I'd expect out of the 10th doctor, it just seemed a bit vindictive. I mean, yes, he deserved it. But the Doctor just so rarely openly murders someone (that's neither Cyberman nor Dalek) >> Was also a bit disappointed that Solomon's ship had no defensive systems, you'd think as a pirate he might have had something. It would've been a nice twist if, hey, villain got away but the day was still saved. But oh well.
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That also doesn't take into account the fact that the Doctor told him, "This is what they are tracking." such that he could conceivably jettison the locator beacon and save himself. He didn't. As far as I'm concerned, the Doc's hands are clean.
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I dunno. I wasn't all that shocked by Mr. Williams' choice of lunch spots. And the hook-up was pretty obvious if you ask me.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
The end was a bit shocking too.
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Potentially. We'll see.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Throwaway lines never mean "nothing" on Doctor Who.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
He gave the guy a chance to save himself. Multiple chances to save himself. He gave him every opportunity to walk away. That was not murder, it was assisted suicide.
That also doesn't take into account the fact that the Doctor told him, "This is what they are tracking." such that he could conceivably jettison the locator beacon and save himself. He didn't. As far as I'm concerned, the Doc's hands are clean. |
I dunno like I said, to me, it seemed more like a 10th doctor moment than an 11th. 11 has his 'darker side' but it usually takes a lot of pushing (like threatening his loved ones). As I said though, I just think the whole villain bit was poorly done, the guy is just a mustache twirler we're supposed to not feel bad for when he dies because he was a bad guy. It's basically grade school villainy.
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He may have known what kind of person he was, that was pretty obvious. The Doctor has, to me, always been about giving people the chance to reconsider their actions and back down. If they choose to go ahead with their plans, then it's their own suicide they are committing.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
I disagree, he knew exactly what kind of man Solomon was. Giving him so many 'chances' was just leading him. The doctor is experienced enough to know Solomon was going to betray him and never turn the other cheek. It was pretty guaranteed there was never going to be a bargain, the Doctor basically just gave himself -more- excuses to kill the guy. Even asks "Did the Silurians beg you to stop?" and that's pretty dark for the Doctor, that basically says this was going to happen from the beginning.
I dunno like I said, to me, it seemed more like a 10th doctor moment than an 11th. 11 has his 'darker side' but it usually takes a lot of pushing (like threatening his loved ones). As I said though, I just think the whole villain bit was poorly done, the guy is just a mustache twirler we're supposed to not feel bad for when he dies because he was a bad guy. It's basically grade school villainy. |
Maybe he was leading him, maybe he wasn't. He did give Solomon the chance to cut his losses and leave. Solomon chose not to, so on his head be the consequences.
As I have only just seen the latest Dalek storym, yes I am behind the times here, I will say it was ok but about the errm converted roboslaves? people, that is a staple of the daleks for years, the very second ever Dalek series in 64 had the dalek use mind controlled slaves, then after that they used ogrons a type of ape like creature, then later they used diplicates, so yeah that is part fo the Dalek mythos, lalthough never used quite like that it is part of what they do. All in all a decent episode though I wish it had been done a tad more seriously, I tend to think the menace was there but it was lost in translation to TV a little. It would have made a interesting two parter, as for the ending well, 50 50 it may be a new start for the doctor v the Daleks thing, it stops them following him for a bit, however remember chances are Davros is still about and could make them remember. Also their could be back up systems yadda yadda either way it has stopped them hunting the Doctor for a bit. So 8 out of 10 for me, decent but not as good as it could be.
The end is just a new beginning, Goodbye all my coh friends and even the enemies, its been a blast I will miss you all. Thank you Paragon team, you gave me a home from home I will always appriciate it.
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Well, he's possibly turning into a Dalek, after all...
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Originally Posted by Agent White
11 has his 'darker side' but it usually takes a lot of pushing (like threatening his loved ones).
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I don't know why you worry so much when an irredeemably evil bar steward gets his just desserts. Not every villain has to be the product of a troubled childhood. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and evil is just evil.
I really should do something about this signature.
I was just thinking, Soloman reminded me a lot of Sharaz Jek from The Caves of Androzani, in terms of creepiness anyway.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Minus the gimp mask, of course.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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It's an important distinction of the Doctor's character between the Doctor that endeavors to preserve life so much that he spared the Daleks at their Genesis and the Doctor who's channeling Dark Yugi and calling down the Penalty Game. Especially as we near the Long Dark Valeyard Time of his Soul.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I don't know why you worry so much when an irredeemably evil bar steward gets his just desserts.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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/em golf clap|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I don't know why you worry so much when an irredeemably evil bar steward gets his just desserts. Not every villain has to be the product of a troubled childhood. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and evil is just evil.
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I totally agree with this point. We live in a "grey obsessed" time in fiction. While nice and realistic and blah blah blah blah blah, sometimes it's nice just to have a rotton to the core bad guy.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Except it isn't really about the greyness/blackness of the villain this time.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
/em golf clap
I totally agree with this point. We live in a "grey obsessed" time in fiction. While nice and realistic and blah blah blah blah blah, sometimes it's nice just to have a rotton to the core bad guy. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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PRAF's comment was about the earlier criticism that Soloman was too much of a mustache twirler. That's what I was referring to, I wasn't referring to the Dr.'s action.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Except it isn't really about the greyness/blackness of the villain this time.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Partially, it was also about being concerned when such a character 'gets his just desserts', and as it was the Doctor serving those up it was inherently about his actions as well. It asks the question 'why worry' and then goes in the wrong direction in trying to allay the concerns, because the concern isn't really hinged on how bad the bad guy is but rather how bad the good guy might be.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
PRAF's comment was about the earlier criticism that Soloman was too much of a mustache twirler.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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My comment was only referring to the broader idea of villains (grey v. black) and not anything to do with the discussion of the episdoe per se.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Partially, it was also about being concerned when such a character 'gets his just desserts', and as it was the Doctor serving those up it was inherently about his actions as well. It asks the question 'why worry' and then goes in the wrong direction in trying to allay the concerns, because the concern isn't really hinged on how bad the bad guy is but rather how bad the good guy might be.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Solomon showed absolutely no sign of guilt or repentance. Ergo, to let him live would just give him the opportunity to do even more harm. There is nothing "good" about letting such a person live. It's just self indulgence.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Partially, it was also about being concerned when such a character 'gets his just desserts', and as it was the Doctor serving those up it was inherently about his actions as well. It asks the question 'why worry' and then goes in the wrong direction in trying to allay the concerns, because the concern isn't really hinged on how bad the bad guy is but rather how bad the good guy might be.
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I really should do something about this signature.
It's not really a matter of grey vs black. I don't want solomon to be an anti hero or something or even have some kind of sympathy, I'm fine with him being a greedy merchant/space pirate.
But the show kind of already has a -glut- of one off villains that are exactly like him. It's not that that I mind the type, it's that I mind that it's just plain lazy writing. Villain shows up, it's a little vague at first, quickly confirms he's a villain, he's given chances to redeem himself or turn the other cheek, never does, dies horribly for his hubris, everyone celebrates that the Doctor stopped the bad guy and saved the day. Lather, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum. I could be describing any number of episodes honestly.
I mean that was just my problem with this episode, it's just a standard retread of any number of prior Who episodes. Not that everything needs to be original and new, but don't take the absolute easiest ways out when writing it. There have been one off villains that have been -great-, I do like the occasional mustache twirler, my issue isn't specifically with that, it's just how it was handled. You can do that kind of character and have fun with it, this wasn't that though.
Heck, recent example. House. House was a great mustache twirler. Absolutely evil. Tricked Time Lords, killed them, ate their Tardises, totally unrepentant about it, totally tried to murder the Doctor and his companions. About as one dimensional as Solomon but so much more well done, he's a cool villain and you actually cheer when he dies. That was a good villain but on the most basic level, about the same as Solomon.
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Heh. They even had him "Shoot the Dog" solely to prove just how nasty he was. Indeed, they went out of their way to make the not-quite-a-dog very dog-like beforehand just for that purpose.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Not that everything needs to be original and new, but don't take the absolute easiest ways out when writing it.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
There has been how many Doctor Who stories over the decades? It's gonna get kind of tough coming up with a new twist for a villain of the week A-plot. It's usually the episode B-plot or the season's C-plot hints that makes the story unique.
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And how many "insane" villains have we had in superhero movies?! That I'm really sick of. The even made the Master "insane" in Dr Who.
I liked Solomon. He wasn't mad. He wasn't misguided. He wasn't charming. He didn't have a master plan for universal domination. He wasn't some superpowerful being for whom other living things are like cattle. He was just an ordinary human who happened to have no redeeming features whatsoever.
I really should do something about this signature.
Starting to watch tonight's (09/08/12) Ep....
Oh lordy... The elder Weasley is Rory's Dad!
Gonna have to watch the ep later (DVRing it right now). This one looks to be fun.
Thank you for the time...