City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Meanwhile, in the Halls of Titan...

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-08-31 17:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDavid View Post
Techbot, I'm tempted to find a way to take that picture of Scarface you posted last year and putting the character in your avatar in place of him.
That would make me a very, very happy angry-bot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
That would make me a very, very happy angry-bot
Any full body pictures of your guy available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banelord View Post
What you also may need between now and Nov 30 as a backup plan is to make a fraps+net traffic capture tool which records both simultaneously and then compresses the video.
That ... actually sounds like a pretty cool idea, having Fraps running to give visual context for what's gong on. Even with compressed footage, though, I'd hope Titan's got a terabyte drive to spare for that. @_@

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDavid View Post
Any full body pictures of your guy available?
Bunch of full body refs here;

http://union.virtueverse.net/wiki/Techbot_ALPHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

I'm a developer. Not a game developer. (Although I scripted a popular NWN server back in the day and did a lot of the design)

I would quit my job and work full-time with no pay to resurrect our game.
I'm very good at learning new tech.

Emulated servers are not an option. NCSoft has an obligation to aggressively protect its IP. The project would be C&Ded before long.

The scenario I'm volunteering for is if the IP is acquired but Paragon studios remains dissolved.

As an aside, I will never play a non open-sourced MMOG again. Profit and community are adversarial.

In fact I've half a mind to start an open source MMOG engine project regardless of the outcome. MMOGs would still be expensive, but not having to worry about engine licensing might allow smaller studios to compete more equally, and allow for community crowdsourcing of a modern, full-featured game.

---------------------------------
Heartbroken I lurked a lot but I'll miss you all

Alpha Team sg, Pinnacle server
Black Citadel vg

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Pine_ View Post
Is there anyway we can start from scratch, and make a new game called City of Titans or something? Using some of the tech and knowledge that the devs and other people have ammassed over the years of fiddling with the code?
While possible in the long term, That's not realistic in the short term. Even if a pre-made game engine like Unity is used, it would take at LEAST a year just to get a working alpha or beta, with a release months later.

That would be great for *having* a game, so it's good long term. But what it also means is losing most of the City of Heroes subscriber base in the process. They may still be hungry for a game like this a year later, but when they already paid for a year subscription to something else, it's going to be tougher to get them to jump in. Not impossible, but tougher.

It also means that a new game will have much bigger shoes to fill, because it would have to be even more modern looking and more functional to draw enough people in and make it worthwhile.

Also to everyone in this thread: I'd like to remind you that educating someone has a much higher value than pushing them away, especially right now. We have one common enemy; stay together and stay focused.

Manga @ Triumph
"Meanwhile In The Halls Of Titan"...Titan Network Working To Save City Of Heroes
Save Paragon City! Efforts Coordination

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_NA View Post
As an aside, I will never play a non open-sourced MMOG again. Profit and community are adversarial.
This remark makes me want to try and articulate a few things I've been thinking over this weekend in order to broaden people's minds to fit more accurately the range of solutions that may be possible in terms of ownership and management of this (or in worst case, the spirtual successor to this) MMO moving forward.

This is not meant to single out you, Alexis_NA nor any other poster. I do not seek to offend nor grab attention in this hour of relative crisis for this MMO and the community that comprises it. Just to inform.

There seems to be a decent amount of bias, understandably given our current cultural climate, that there are basically two options: corporate owned for profit capitalism and all else filed under unprofitable not-for-profit charity thingies.

The landscape of possible business and ownership models is more diverse than that with a range of precedents.

Yes, there is our current situation which our solution may ultimately mirror: IP ownership and distribution via a multinational media corporation who will extract a percentage of profit each year in return for their initial investment of a lump sum of capital to save the IP and the game. This could be a number of the other existing corporate entities people have already brainstormed in this thread or others, from SOE to VALVe.

Not too far from this, and not to be confused with a cooperative, there is shared ownership of a newly formed public company where capital for the initial rescue purchase is made by sale of shares to a VERY wide, diverse swath of people with the thought that if you sell to enough supportive persons within a community that has vested interest in the continued existence of whatever the capital was raised to form, build or purchase, that a majority will never sell their piecemeal shares allowing a hostile takeover. This sort of effort takes advantage of existing laws and regulations both permitting and governing the creation and sales of shares in a corporation. The most famous case of this happening is the local and distributed ownership of the Green Bay Packers. I'm honestly not informed though about how profit and loss margins (P&L) are handled with respect to shareholders for the Packers.

Then there are cooperatives. Coops for short. (Pronounced co-op, two syllables not to be confused with coops for chickens.) These come in many diverse forms and can demand a range of responsibilities, both physical and financial. A few examples:
  • Here in NYC, there are cooperatives that own buildings, where similar to a condo fee, you pay into a general fund monthly in addition to your mortgage. A coop board is formed and required to manage and deliberate important building related decisions including new roofs, boiler maintenance, meeting building regulations, deciding on and paying for amenities like doormen. One important factor that many people outside of NYC might not realize: a cooperative has the legal authority to block any pending sale of a unit. This might scare the bejeezus out of some reading right now. But it is there as a protective measure. It is an authority that can and has been abused most certainly in the past. But there are good reasons that a quiet building may not want a professional drummer or a person with 41 cats or a person who's credit history looks like they may be foreclosed upon within a year to move into the building. A fine distinction: with a condo, you own your space wall to wall while a private corporation owns the infrastructure of the building (plumbing, boiler, elevators, etc.) while with a coop, you own the space within your unit, but the building infrastructure including the shared walls between units, are owned cooperatively amongst ALL the other building residents.

  • There are also owner operated cooperatives. I happen to be a member of the largest and most successful one in the Unites States: the Park Slope Food Coop. Say what you will about hippie eats, when for working just under 3 hours a month you can get all sorts of good, safe mostly local foods and food products at wholesale +21% compared to other prices in NYC, there is no need to argue. To take some air out of the notion that non-corporate business cannot be profitable, the PSFC has long since bought out its mortgage on its expansion space. Our rotating active membership (as some members drop out and new ones join) of 12k-20k people brings in enough proceeds to cover a full time daily staff of about a couple dozen people with both healthcare and a good living wage for Brooklyn. Prices only go up when our suppliers raise their prices. And the coffers are currently so full that the PSFC is exploring via our general meeting and open democratic management structure becoming a lender to provide outlays of initial capital to help other fledgling owner operated cooperatives launch. (This outlay could be in the form of a several $100k loan to purchase a reasonable space for example.) There are disadvantages to something like this in terms of it being sometimes VERY difficult to start due to lack of capital. But once established and culturally rooted, these sorts of organizations can be tremendously flexible and display pragmatic longterm management decisions that prioritize the continued existence of the entity. And again, this is one example that demonstrates that non-corporate does not equal not profitable.

  • Another example is the worker owned cooperative. This is not to be confused with the owner operated described above that expects a level of volunteerism and labor from all those that use the services of the entity. Nor is it to be confused with stock options granted to workers by some corporations. Imagine if everyone that worked at New Paragon Studios (for lack of a better name currently) was given partial ownership over the game and the studio that produces it. Positron, War Witch, Zwill, Dink, Honey Badger, Synapse, all the way down to their janitor if it is a full time non-external contractor, et al.--all of them partial owners. Now imagine that there is no investor bracket. No external board of directors or shareholders tithing the annual profits. Imagine the workers at Paragon voting to keep their salaries roughly where they are with benefits (hopefully respectable living wages). Now, all that extra capital coming in can go directly back into the game, ensuring its longevity, allowing for capital improvements, etc. More management authority is placed in the hands of those that are directly working in the trenches in terms of where the wisest place to invest those funds would be. There are several examples within the United States of work forces pooling monies and buying out beleaguered manufacturers and demonstrating that the business is actually sustainable if you simply trim back the owner-class in terms of profit distribution. An industrial bakery in the Northwest and a window company in the Midwest leap to mind. Additionally, there are a number of new growers cooperatives being set up in Africa and South America providing all of us here with out of season delicacies like great pesticide free coffee and organic blueberries. As with other cooperatives, the initial hurdle is that first bump of cash to buy out the infrastructure (factory, farm, etc.) that is close to being shuttered.

  • Another example is the consumer cooperative. This involves cooperative ownership by those that actually use the service of the entity. I am not as familiar with the history of these, but regional cooperative power supply and distribution is one solid example of this sort of cooperative and there are still several regions of the country whose power grid is served and maintained by such an organization. If anyone has more direct experience with these, please chime in. It's important to remember that shared ownership does not equal free usage of all services offered by that entity as if it were your father's candy store. It simply means that you collectively have some input on governing decisions, perhaps things as important as will this regional gas company frack in our counties or not. Or more trivial but still impactful: the day on which your favorite MMO shuts down.

This is far from an exhaustive list of the myriad types of alternative ownership models with functional precedents out there. There are already numerous business laws set up to help establish and regulate these different sorts of bodies. I'm not trying to insinuate that any one model is THE right model for our collective efforts to find a new home or spiritual successor for CoH. But I hope we can keep an open mind to some of these wide ranging options and realize that once established, some of the alternatives may prove to be even more long-lived and more fruitful for the game itself and those who would continue developing it.

 

Posted

@SilverAgeFan

You sir, are a scholar and gentleman.

All of what you said is correct (I just did some research) and all of those options are viable. Perhaps some research should be put into what kind of ownership should be used if the IP is sold?

Other options include LLCs [Limited Liability Companies) (I am an owner of one such company) and other forms of partnerships.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_NA View Post
The scenario I'm volunteering for is if the IP is acquired but Paragon studios remains dissolved.
How would you feel about a "spiritual successor" IP?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
How would you feel about a "spiritual successor" IP?
As long as the ownership of the IP, assets, and code was with the community, absolutely!

SilverAgeFan:

I may have simplified a bit. All I was saying is that I don't think the current common MMO business models cater to the needs of the community which emerges from an inherently social game. Being a code-monkey, I'll admit I don't give much thought to business organization or logistics. Your information gives me hope that there is a way to do what we want!

---------------------------------
Heartbroken I lurked a lot but I'll miss you all

Alpha Team sg, Pinnacle server
Black Citadel vg

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
...
Not too far from this, and not to be confused with a cooperative, there is shared ownership of a newly formed public company where capital for the initial rescue purchase is made by sale of shares to a VERY wide, diverse swath of people with the thought that if you sell to enough supportive persons within a community that has vested interest in the continued existence of whatever the capital was raised to form, build or purchase, that a majority will never sell their piecemeal shares allowing a hostile takeover. This sort of effort takes advantage of existing laws and regulations both permitting and governing the creation and sales of shares in a corporation. The most famous case of this happening is the local and distributed ownership of the Green Bay Packers. I'm honestly not informed though about how profit and loss margins (P&L) are handled with respect to shareholders for the Packers.
...
This, or something like this, is very much worth considering if they indicate they are willing to sell. There have been some comments to the effect that crowdsourcing $10 million or more is not feasible. The thing to remember, is that we're not just talking about purchasing a game we love; we're also talking about purchasing an income source that generates millions of dollars a year in revenue. The game is making money (as far as we know), and by setting up a corporation with shares that pay dividends on profits earned, you turn this from a "how much are you willing to pay to save City of Heroes?" question to "How much of your money are you willing to tie up in a risky investment which has the potential to continue to generate money for you--to save City of Heroes?". For me at least, the second number is a lot higher.

The other options also bear consideration, but I guess before we can try different fund raising models, we have to know if they're willing to sell at all. Has there been any news on that front?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis_NA View Post
As long as the ownership of the IP, assets, and code was with the community, absolutely!
They would be - it'd be a collective effort - but hopefully it won't come to that, and NCSoft will show some sense.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
How would you feel about a "spiritual successor" IP?
To be completely honest? I honestly feel like this would be the best solution.

Of course, I'm absolutely in favor of saving what we have NOW, keeping the community together, keeping the game afloat.

But to be frank, the game is old. And looks it. The mechanics are fabulous, character creation unrivaled, sidekicking, base building, mission creator, the enhancement system - all unique and wonderful. But they're clunking along with a frankly often-ugly graphic set in a very old engine.

I'd love to not ONLY save this game now, but see someone working on a successor game that would be more modern and actually ATTRACT new players.

I can't help playing GW2, looking at the beautiful graphics, the wonderful character customization (yes, not like COH, you can't pick your outfits and you have to use loot, but being able to sculpt my character's face exactly how I wanted instead of using one of the blurry pre-mades was GOLD!) the fluid movements and engine and all I can think is - DAMMIT I WANT COH TO BE IN THIS ENGINE AND GRAPHICS!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
This remark makes me want to try and articulate a few things I've been thinking over this weekend in order to broaden people's minds to fit more accurately the range of solutions that may be possible in terms of ownership and management of this (or in worst case, the spirtual successor to this) MMO moving forward.

This is not meant to single out you, Alexis_NA nor any other poster. I do not seek to offend nor grab attention in this hour of relative crisis for this MMO and the community that comprises it. Just to inform.

There seems to be a decent amount of bias, understandably given our current cultural climate, that there are basically two options: corporate owned for profit capitalism and all else filed under unprofitable not-for-profit charity thingies.

The landscape of possible business and ownership models is more diverse than that with a range of precedents.

Yes, there is our current situation which our solution may ultimately mirror: IP ownership and distribution via a multinational media corporation who will extract a percentage of profit each year in return for their initial investment of a lump sum of capital to save the IP and the game. This could be a number of the other existing corporate entities people have already brainstormed in this thread or others, from SOE to VALVe.

Not too far from this, and not to be confused with a cooperative, there is shared ownership of a newly formed public company where capital for the initial rescue purchase is made by sale of shares to a VERY wide, diverse swath of people with the thought that if you sell to enough supportive persons within a community that has vested interest in the continued existence of whatever the capital was raised to form, build or purchase, that a majority will never sell their piecemeal shares allowing a hostile takeover. This sort of effort takes advantage of existing laws and regulations both permitting and governing the creation and sales of shares in a corporation. The most famous case of this happening is the local and distributed ownership of the Green Bay Packers. I'm honestly not informed though about how profit and loss margins (P&L) are handled with respect to shareholders for the Packers.

Then there are cooperatives. Coops for short. (Pronounced co-op, two syllables not to be confused with coops for chickens.) These come in many diverse forms and can demand a range of responsibilities, both physical and financial. A few examples:
  • Here in NYC, there are cooperatives that own buildings, where similar to a condo fee, you pay into a general fund monthly in addition to your mortgage. A coop board is formed and required to manage and deliberate important building related decisions including new roofs, boiler maintenance, meeting building regulations, deciding on and paying for amenities like doormen. One important factor that many people outside of NYC might not realize: a cooperative has the legal authority to block any pending sale of a unit. This might scare the bejeezus out of some reading right now. But it is there as a protective measure. It is an authority that can and has been abused most certainly in the past. But there are good reasons that a quiet building may not want a professional drummer or a person with 41 cats or a person who's credit history looks like they may be foreclosed upon within a year to move into the building. A fine distinction: with a condo, you own your space wall to wall while a private corporation owns the infrastructure of the building (plumbing, boiler, elevators, etc.) while with a coop, you own the space within your unit, but the building infrastructure including the shared walls between units, are owned cooperatively amongst ALL the other building residents.

  • There are also owner operated cooperatives. I happen to be a member of the largest and most successful one in the Unites States: the Park Slope Food Coop. Say what you will about hippie eats, when for working just under 3 hours a month you can get all sorts of good, safe mostly local foods and food products at wholesale +21% compared to other prices in NYC, there is no need to argue. To take some air out of the notion that non-corporate business cannot be profitable, the PSFC has long since bought out its mortgage on its expansion space. Our rotating active membership (as some members drop out and new ones join) of 12k-20k people brings in enough proceeds to cover a full time daily staff of about a couple dozen people with both healthcare and a good living wage for Brooklyn. Prices only go up when our suppliers raise their prices. And the coffers are currently so full that the PSFC is exploring via our general meeting and open democratic management structure becoming a lender to provide outlays of initial capital to help other fledgling owner operated cooperatives launch. (This outlay could be in the form of a several $100k loan to purchase a reasonable space for example.) There are disadvantages to something like this in terms of it being sometimes VERY difficult to start due to lack of capital. But once established and culturally rooted, these sorts of organizations can be tremendously flexible and display pragmatic longterm management decisions that prioritize the continued existence of the entity. And again, this is one example that demonstrates that non-corporate does not equal not profitable.

  • Another example is the worker owned cooperative. This is not to be confused with the owner operated described above that expects a level of volunteerism and labor from all those that use the services of the entity. Nor is it to be confused with stock options granted to workers by some corporations. Imagine if everyone that worked at New Paragon Studios (for lack of a better name currently) was given partial ownership over the game and the studio that produces it. Positron, War Witch, Zwill, Dink, Honey Badger, Synapse, all the way down to their janitor if it is a full time non-external contractor, et al.--all of them partial owners. Now imagine that there is no investor bracket. No external board of directors or shareholders tithing the annual profits. Imagine the workers at Paragon voting to keep their salaries roughly where they are with benefits (hopefully respectable living wages). Now, all that extra capital coming in can go directly back into the game, ensuring its longevity, allowing for capital improvements, etc. More management authority is placed in the hands of those that are directly working in the trenches in terms of where the wisest place to invest those funds would be. There are several examples within the United States of work forces pooling monies and buying out beleaguered manufacturers and demonstrating that the business is actually sustainable if you simply trim back the owner-class in terms of profit distribution. An industrial bakery in the Northwest and a window company in the Midwest leap to mind. Additionally, there are a number of new growers cooperatives being set up in Africa and South America providing all of us here with out of season delicacies like great pesticide free coffee and organic blueberries. As with other cooperatives, the initial hurdle is that first bump of cash to buy out the infrastructure (factory, farm, etc.) that is close to being shuttered.

  • Another example is the consumer cooperative. This involves cooperative ownership by those that actually use the service of the entity. I am not as familiar with the history of these, but regional cooperative power supply and distribution is one solid example of this sort of cooperative and there are still several regions of the country whose power grid is served and maintained by such an organization. If anyone has more direct experience with these, please chime in. It's important to remember that shared ownership does not equal free usage of all services offered by that entity as if it were your father's candy store. It simply means that you collectively have some input on governing decisions, perhaps things as important as will this regional gas company frack in our counties or not. Or more trivial but still impactful: the day on which your favorite MMO shuts down.

This is far from an exhaustive list of the myriad types of alternative ownership models with functional precedents out there. There are already numerous business laws set up to help establish and regulate these different sorts of bodies. I'm not trying to insinuate that any one model is THE right model for our collective efforts to find a new home or spiritual successor for CoH. But I hope we can keep an open mind to some of these wide ranging options and realize that once established, some of the alternatives may prove to be even more long-lived and more fruitful for the game itself and those who would continue developing it.

I might have to look some of this up for other ventures; but if the price isn't prohibitive... I could see some of this working for CoH.

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

 

Posted

I think my ideal MMO would be City of Heroes 2 remade with the same engine and combat style as Tera...

Tera is still a "generic" fantasy MMO with reeaaally generic quests... but the combat is the most fun I've had in a while, MMO and non-MMO games combined.

COH mechanics (sidekicking, alignement, etc), lore and customization merged with Tera-like combat would be awesome...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
To be completely honest? I honestly feel like this would be the best solution.

Of course, I'm absolutely in favor of saving what we have NOW, keeping the community together, keeping the game afloat.

But to be frank, the game is old. And looks it. The mechanics are fabulous, character creation unrivaled, sidekicking, base building, mission creator, the enhancement system - all unique and wonderful. But they're clunking along with a frankly often-ugly graphic set in a very old engine.

I'd love to not ONLY save this game now, but see someone working on a successor game that would be more modern and actually ATTRACT new players.

I can't help playing GW2, looking at the beautiful graphics, the wonderful character customization (yes, not like COH, you can't pick your outfits and you have to use loot, but being able to sculpt my character's face exactly how I wanted instead of using one of the blurry pre-mades was GOLD!) the fluid movements and engine and all I can think is - DAMMIT I WANT COH TO BE IN THIS ENGINE AND GRAPHICS!
As the "spiritual successor" option is Plan Z if NCSoft gives us nothing, then that would mean a new engine, as we wouldn't have access to the current engine.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tremblay View Post
I think my ideal MMO would be City of Heroes 2 remade with the same engine and combat style as Tera...

Tera is still a "generic" fantasy MMO with reeaaally generic quests... but the combat is the most fun I've had in a while, MMO and non-MMO games combined.

COH mechanics (sidekicking, alignement, etc), lore and customization merged with Tera-like combat would be awesome...
We'd have to be very careful about making changes form the current style of combat - it's one of the key elements that's often brought up when players say what they like best about CoH.

The design goal of any spirritual successor would have to be "CoH, but even better".

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tremblay View Post
I think my ideal MMO would be City of Heroes 2 remade with the same engine and combat style as Tera...

Tera is still a "generic" fantasy MMO with reeaaally generic quests... but the combat is the most fun I've had in a while, MMO and non-MMO games combined.

COH mechanics (sidekicking, alignement, etc), lore and customization merged with Tera-like combat would be awesome...
Wow, I'm gonna be all over CoH 2 when that happens. I don't know how Tera did it, but it's revolutionizing. The best combat system I've ever seen in MMO, no gimmicks whatsoever.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
We'd have to be very careful about making changes form the current style of combat - it's one of the key elements that's often brought up when players say what they like best about CoH.

The design goal of any spirritual successor would have to be "CoH, but even better".
Do you really think the community can handle this? I know we are great and the best MMO-Community out there, but made a entire new game sounds a little bit to optimistic for me. This is a lot of work with a lot of money and this will need years to complete. People maybe forget it in the matter of time or just give up on the way...

Of course this an absolutly dream. Doing a Golden Girl Taskforce, visit Liberty Park and show someone that we win at the end, but...

Well, I'm a little bit skeptical with this...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
We'd have to be very careful about making changes form the current style of combat - it's one of the key elements that's often brought up when players say what they like best about CoH.

The design goal of any spirritual successor would have to be "CoH, but even better".
Not to dilute us too far, but between (or beyond?) the buyout, the rebuild and the spiritual successor, there is also the transplanted community becoming an open source environment.

I know I've brought it up elsewhere since the news of the shutdown broke, but I feel the pre-alpha through beta (maybe even still live?) Minecraft community is a good example of a third direction to go. So very much has changed in gaming since CoH was even conceived.

What we have here, for all our social flaws, is a community of avid enthusiasts of this niche genre, several dozen dedicated souls, many of us seasoned with what does and what doesn't work about other games. Many of us have been inexplicably drawn back to CoH time and again after breaks when other games don't do that. And if you believe the Eulogies coming out since Friday in the gaming press, we are not alone in that special glow we feel for CoH.

Some traits that have vastly been improved or at least pioneered more, mostly by indie games, are: physics as meaningful gameplay elements, material traits as they relate to physics, and voxel based gaming. All of these in concert open avenues for what could be groundbreaking and exciting developments in gameplay, especially within the Supers genre.

Even if it's an all new engine meant to reproduce the feel of CoH, I would hope that along the way some space is left within the plans for room to evolve the gameplay beyond where we could with today's engine and components. (I see it like rehabbing an apartment really--while you've got the walls open, why not correct the plumbing?)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technerdoc View Post
Do you really think the community can handle this? I know we are great and the best MMO-Community out there, but made a entire new game sounds a little bit to optimistic for me. This is a lot of work with a lot of money and this will need years to complete. People maybe forget it in the matter of time or just give up on the way...

Of course this an absolutly dream. Doing a Golden Girl Taskforce, visit Liberty Park and show someone that we win at the end, but...

Well, I'm a little bit skeptical with this...
Given what we know (see my thread here), it is probable that CoH2 was in development. So it may take months, instead of years to complete. It probably wouldn't have radically changed combat though.

TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat View Post
Given what we know (see my thread here), it is probable that CoH2 was in development. So it may take months, instead of years to complete. It probably wouldn't have radically changed combat though.
But who would own the work already done on that unnamed property? MAYBE it was Paragon, but if NCSoft had the power to dissolve Paragon odds are all products in development under their roof also belong to NCSoft. All depends on the paperwork behind the scenes. But I highly doubt any of that material belongs to the developers who are free agents now. And I'm not familiar enough to even begin guessing how intellectual property and patent laws apply to code--i.e. does it require a non-compete clause for a coder not to just repeat what they helped write elsewhere or is that protected by something similar to a patent in terms of ownership?

But at the end, I'd presume it's the same as if you were a lab chemist and 3M laid you off. You'd have no legal right to take that formula for Adhesive-X and then go make millions off of it. So sadly all that work on the unnamed project, which was repeatedly asserted to be a new IP, will likely remain unseen regardless of how little or how much development it still needs before it's release ready.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
But to be frank, the game is old. And looks it. The mechanics are fabulous, character creation unrivaled, sidekicking, base building, mission creator, the enhancement system - all unique and wonderful. But they're clunking along with a frankly often-ugly graphic set in a very old engine.
But that 'very old engine' is still about the best engine out there. I've yet to play an MMO with a fully 3D engine, with collision detection, that is as clean as CoH's. Every other MMO's engine I've played just doesn't have the same smoothness -- I'm not talking frames per second, I'm talking about way the character moves through the environment, collides with the environment, etc.

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Posted

There are many different moving parts that could be licensed or purchased. It matter quite a bit which specific parts are being referenced in conversations about possible aggrements:


Likely licensing parts
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1. The IP rights (the right to develop characters, places and content derived from the CoH universe, but not any existing code or art or tools)

2. The client rights (the right to use a current or former CoX client as shipped but not the source to it; *maybe* modification via data and scripting changes allowed for by the client's design, and plugging in custom models or art)


Likely purchasable parts (essentially buying part/all of Paragon Studios sources and tools)
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3. CoH models and art (the characters, equipment, buildings, zones and instance sets)

4. CoH client engine, scripting and protocols (the client we use, and the communications between it and a server - it might use (3) or have to create and script its own models and art, and it might use (5) or have to create its own server

5. CoH server, database and behavior (the sum of behavior of the CoH server side)

Any deal for these parts should emphatically include any tools developed for use with them. Character modeling tools, test beds, traffic emulators, profilers, etc. Gaining access to parts of the codebase but lacking the associated tools would mean a giant setback in terms of time and effort.


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(1) and (2) would be minimally necessary to produce something remotely ressembling the CoH we know and love, or you risk C&D as mentioned. You would need to fabricate the server emulator either from scratch or using an existing emulation platform base. As most people know, emulating the server but using an existing client is what almost every private MMO effort does. Whether they formally obtain (1) or (2) is another story ...

I don't see gaining access to (3), (4) or esp. (5) unless you could convince them to actually sell Paragon Studios assets to you. And (5) along with internally developed tools would be the very last thing they may want outsiders to have, since it may be tech shared with other projects that they may yet repurpose in another subsidiary projects.

Regardless of which tact ends up being taken, you absolutely need a few very talented devs who have defintely built 3d games before (obviously ex-PS folks would be gold), in addition to the added talents of other devs pitching in for all sorts of contributions from building up the database of info needed to testing to scripting to limited UI mod'ing to protocol reverse engineering.

If you don't have access to the existing client, or lacking that the models and art assets, then you would also need a whole other set of talents - artists and character/zone designers - which would be prohibitive and best avoided (again, unless you could somehow get ex-PS folks).

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TL ; DR

Unless you are going after the right to the CoH IP and existing client for use with your own server effort, you will need a studio-sized effort of your own. And even then you will still need a tight-knit set of dev resources not unlike Project99 (EQ), Feenix (WoW) or Utgarde (DAoC).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
We'd have to be very careful about making changes form the current style of combat - it's one of the key elements that's often brought up when players say what they like best about CoH.

The design goal of any spirritual successor would have to be "CoH, but even better".
Exactly.

For me, I absolutely love the gameplay of CoH. If there was any kind of spiritual successor, I'd want the same general kind of combat. I've had complaints about the graphics over the years, and complaints about the story, zones, etc. But combat is never really one of those. There's a lot of AT's and a lot of playstyles, so it's hard to feel bored with all of them at once.

The playstyle/powers just make you feel heroic. IMO.

 

Posted

What I'd like to see in a spiritual successor to CoH is mainly an engine that's flexible and easy to maintain and expand. Dr. Aeon's example of Lua scripting is the kind of thing I think will be good.

What I mean to say is, I don't think there's need to change a lot. A new 3D engine is needed, but I feel that even if it didn't provide all the features of other games, even if it just looked more detailed (models and textures), it could still be enough.