I don't feel VIP at all
By
AcceleratorRay,
Posted on: 2012-08-22 15:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Allow me to correct you. Only a very limited number of new powersets have been initially been offered as part of your simple $15 subscription fee. Archery and Trick Arrow were free, but after that everything was initially locked behind buying City of Villains, or buying Going Rogue.|
Originally Posted by _Hush_
Before the launch of Freedom powersets were included in the sub ( correct me please if I am wrong) now it seems almost every powerset has to be purchased off the market
|
You can say that's not the same thing if you like, since all those powers later became open to everyone through other means, but really it is:
When a power set is brand new, there is usually a premium for getting it.
It's just that now with Freedom, the interval is much shorter. Instead of a batch of new sets every couple of years, we get a new set every few months.
As for your comment about not getting a discount? You get free points every month to spend as you choose. EVERY new powerset has had at least 2 months lead time since it gets announced to when it launches. It's not the developer's fault if you can't save up 800 points to get the set as part of your subscription fee.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
My calculations say you're wrong. Seriously though, whether it's worth it is a subjective issue. You can't really apply math to it and say you absotively have the correct answer for everyone. You especially can't say that to the folks around here without demonstrating your work.
|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
It is not worth staying VIP if you don't do Incarnate content. I have done the calculations and it is more cost effective not paying a sub.
|
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
Well that really depends on a few factors.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
It is not worth staying VIP if you don't do Incarnate content. I have done the calculations and it is more cost effective not paying a sub.
|
If you stop subscribing, even as a tier 9... what do you lose?
Let's see...
1) Any character over the number of character unlocks you have. You'll have to SPEND POINTS/MONEY if you want more characters than your premium limit allows. (that varies based on vet status etc)
2) SSA access unless you SPEND POINTS/MONEY to unlock them without VIP. That can be significant to some folks (like me).
3) Incarnate content as you mentioned. While I can take or leave the trials I do LIKE having the powers and the solo content.
4) Mission options like First Ward/Night Ward/Praetoria unless you SPEND POINTS/MONEY to unlock them without VIP. That can be significant to some folks (like me).
5) Any character using free for VIP powersets. That affects MANY players. You'll have to what... oh yea... SPEND POINTS/MONEY to unlock them without VIP.
6) Mitigated costs. The VIP sub at tier 9 grants you 550 points per month. Easily enough to buy a new costume set every month or a powerset every other month without ever paying a dime beyond your sub.
7) A reward token every month. If you aren't SPENDING MONEY to buy points you aren't getting these. As a tier 9 that may not be relevant but the fact that you can use them for consumables as a premium should still be counted as value for the VIP sub.
8) No access to tier 9 VIP rewards (the costumes and superpacks). These have value.
I've dropped to premium out of necessity here and there and I notice all of these missing things. VIP has far more value than I think you realize or are willing to admit. And for all the things you would have to spend money/points on to unlock as a premium you could maintain your sub and use your point stipend to unlock things that VIP doesn't give like Nature Affinity, Bio Armor, etc.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Hmmmm, I still have over 3400 points on both accounts and I've bought new sets. All of them? No, but the ones I've wanted to play (thank you VIP beta server!). Along with some superpacks, costume bundles, individual costume pieces and various other stuff ala carte that I couldn't do before freedom. I get free access to SSA's, special tier 9 costumes and the incarnate system and content.
If anything Freedom has made me felt way more special and appreciated by NC Soft than the old system.
I give it the Mental Maden Seal-of-Approval. /em thumbsup
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I'm fairly newly returned after about a year and a half off, and I have to say I'm fully in favor of the way they have it set up now. I feel pretty VIP, especially after creating a separate "Free" account to see what they DON'T have. 
Dec out.
Quote:
Your calculations are off. Per the OP, we're talking about powersets added as part of your subscription fee. None of the CoV or GR powersets count, you had to buy the products to get them when they launched.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
So looking over that list it appears that in the first 5 years of the game we got roughly 5.4 new powersets per year(not counting proliferation), 2.4 of which were free.
In the past year we've had 10 new powersets released, 3 of which are free. So as VIPs our rate of free powersets hasn't gone down since freedom launched and because of the monthly stipend you can technically get most of the paid sets for "free" also. |
You can count them as "free" after they were proliferated or the product was merged into the standard game subscription, but not before. I suppose eventually that means things average out to what you said, but that's the danger of averages. The number of free sets for the first 3 years of the game is actually down around 1 a year, eventually climbing upward.
It really just goes to show the OP's perception and definition of terms is what is off with his conclusions, not your math.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
If you cancel your VIP subscription you will have to pay for:
First Ward - $10
Night Ward - $10
SSA arcs - $10 EACH
Any character slots above the 2 you get for free - $10 EACH
Any Free-To-VIP powersets if you want to continue playing them - $10 EACH
And you will stop getting a monthly points stipend, so any of those things you choose to purchase will cost you real money to get once you run out of points.
Still don't feel like a VIP? If not, I don't know what else to tell you.
The Pay-For powersets:
Street Justice
Titan Weapons
Staff Fighting
Beast Mastery
Water Blast
Beam Rifle
Bio Armor (soon)
That's 7 new powersets that we can use points to buy access to.
Free to VIP sets:
Dark Control
Dark Assault
Dark Affinity
Time Manipulation
Martial Combat
Martial Assault
(you have to buy all those sets if you drop your subscription)
Dual Pistols
Electric Control
Kinetic Melee
Demon Summoning
(you have to pay for these if you drop your subscription and didn't buy Going Rogue)
All of the above sets were released in the last 18 months. As a VIP you get more than half of them for free. Lets see....that's 16 sets in the last 18 months. How many sets did we get at all in the previous SEVEN YEARS?
Lets count:
Archery
Trick Arrow
Sonic Attack
Sonic Resonance
Dual Blades
Willpower
Shield Defense
Mental Manipulation
So, we got more new powersets in the last 12 months than we did in the 7 years prior to that. And we got them because the extra money we paid for those sets funded the next set.
VIPs get more than half those sets for free.
If you were careful with your points as a VIP, you didn't have to spend more than your subscription fee on the sets that must be paid for.
Still don't feel VIP? If not I don't know what else to tell you.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I don't even know what this means. Every powerset in this game has been under or overperforming at one time or another. Same with every powerset or class in every other game I've played. Game balance is a complicated thing, and there's no more expectation for things to be balanced if you pay for them or get them free.|
Originally Posted by _Hush_
Not every power set that is released was performing up to par because people constantly send Arbiter Hawk and Synapse messages in regards to bugs also some that under-perform.
|
So... because aliens?
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
On the contrary, Sonic Blast and Sonic Resonance were released with Trick Arrow and Archery, in issue 5. Dual Blades and Willpower were added in issue 11. Shield Defense and Pain Domination were added in issue 13. Issue 16 provided powerset proliferation.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Allow me to correct you. Only a very limited number of new powersets have been initially been offered as part of your simple $15 subscription fee. Archery and Trick Arrow were free, but after that everything was initially locked behind buying City of Villains, or buying Going Rogue.
You can say that's not the same thing if you like, since all those powers later became open to everyone through other means, but really it is: When a power set is brand new, there is usually a premium for getting it. |
All of those were available for no additional cost. I believe that everyone who had a CoH or CoV account was given full access to both games prior to Pain Domination's release.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Quote:
I agree with you completely, _Hush_. The free stuff VIPs get is uneven. We get some new powersets, which is good. We also get new content in the Incarnate trials and SSAs, but most of that has been awful. Allowing VIPs access to a tedious grind is *not* doing them any favors.|
Originally Posted by _Hush_
Well, I am VIP player and I've been playing the game for about almost six years now. Something that really bothers me as that I have to pay for new powersets. Before the launch of Freedom powersets were included in the sub ( correct me please if I am wrong) now it seems almost every powerset has to be purchased off the market. Now as VIP we don't even get a discount. First off, I understand we get new content in itrials, some costume sets, and story arcs ..etc trust me I aware of we get, however it doesn't feel VIPish at all!
|
All that being said, you have to remember that VIPs are actually the least important players in CoH. The management wants to make money through microtransactions, they want everyone to pay that way, and so they structure their content to entice people to be Premium. They do not want VIPs. So it's no use whining about them not treating VIPs very well. We are no longer their preferred customers, so of course they're not going to be as generous to us as to their micro-paying horde.
If you want to get back in the management's good graces, stop being a VIP player. Turn off your subscription and spend money on the Paragon market. You'll get more for your money that way and you'll feel more appreciated.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I think it pretty much works out in favor of VIP subscribers overall, but I do find it annoying that previously free auras are now gated behind the market. I wanted to use one the other day for a character only to find it was no longer available. Kind of a minor nitpick, all things considered.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
This makes no logical sense. Why devote as many dev resources to revamping Dark Astoria, to all of those trials (most of which are actually fairly fast and not a grind), to incarnate powers, etc. Why provide tier 9 costume sets? Why do anything extra for VIPs as they have been doing if they don't want VIPs?|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
All that being said, you have to remember that VIPs are actually the least important players in CoH. The management wants to make money through microtransactions, they want everyone to pay that way, and so they structure their content to entice people to be Premium. They do not want VIPs. So it's no use whining about them not treating VIPs very well. We are no longer their preferred customers, so of course they're not going to be as generous to us as to their micro-paying horde.
|
Also, many subscribers also buy things through the store, so it's not as if you have VIPs on one side and people buying points on the other side.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Quote:
Which one? When I came back to the game, all the auras that were available to me when I unsubbed were still available to me. The only auras that I've had to pay for are auras that didn't exist when I last played, during and after the launch of Going Rogue and issue 18.
|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I think it pretty much works out in favor of VIP subscribers overall, but I do find it annoying that previously free auras are now gated behind the market. I wanted to use one the other day for a character only to find it was no longer available. Kind of a minor nitpick, all things considered.
|
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Quote:
You forgot:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
All of the above sets were released in the last 18 months. As a VIP you get more than half of them for free. Lets see....that's 16 sets in the last 18 months. How many sets did we get at all in the previous SEVEN YEARS?
Lets count: Archery Trick Arrow Sonic Attack Sonic Resonance Dual Blades Willpower Shield Defense Mental Manipulation |
Electric Melee
Electric Armor
Pain Domination
Earth Assault*
Electricity Assault*
Thugs
But still, that's only 14 sets in 7 years. About 2 a year.
Meanwhile, in the 11 months since Freedom launched, VIPs have gotten 4 free sets (5 if you count Darkness Manipulation for Blasters), with 2 more on the way.
And then 7 pay-for sets, with at least 2 more on beta right now, the sales of which are indirectly funding the production of MORE powersets.
I'm always scratching my head when people say "My $15 a month used to get me ALL new sets for free!" Well, yeah, but we only ever got 1 or 2 every three issues or so. Since Freedom, we've gotten 4 (or 5) free with the last 3 issues.
*I'll give you that these two sets might be debatable as "new" sets.
Quote:
Nonsense never does |
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
This makes no logical sense.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
That makes the huge amount of time and resouces spent on creating the Incarnate system which can only be used by VIP and is unavailable to anyone else via the market seem kinda weird |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
They do not want VIPs.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You have this backwards. The devs are on record as saying the subscription model is what they are hoping to entice people into going with. Premium/Free is their way of hopefully getting SOMETHING from players that aren't a RELIABLE source of income.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
All that being said, you have to remember that VIPs are actually the least important players in CoH. The management wants to make money through microtransactions, they want everyone to pay that way, and so they structure their content to entice people to be Premium. They do not want VIPs. So it's no use whining about them not treating VIPs very well. We are no longer their preferred customers, so of course they're not going to be as generous to us as to their micro-paying horde.
If you want to get back in the management's good graces, stop being a VIP player. Turn off your subscription and spend money on the Paragon market. You'll get more for your money that way and you'll feel more appreciated. |
V.I.P. means Very Important Person. There's a reason subscribers are called VIP. You're insane if you don't think VIP's are treated well or aren't the preferred customers. You have no logical basis for such a claim at all.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you cancel your VIP subscription you will have to pay for:
First Ward - $10 Night Ward - $10 SSA arcs - $10 EACH Any character slots above the 2 you get for free - $10 EACH Any Free-To-VIP powersets if you want to continue playing them - $10 EACH ... The Pay-For powersets: Street Justice Titan Weapons Staff Fighting Beast Mastery Water Blast Beam Rifle Bio Armor (soon) That's 7 new powersets that we can use points to buy access to. |
Just some minor corrections here.
First Ward is 600 points which makes it $7.50 (400 PP's = $5)
Night Ward isn't even for sale, currently.
SSA arcs are $5 each or $30 for a bundle for SSA 1 parts 1-7
New character slots are $6 a piece singly or as little as $4 per when you buy 5 at a time
Nature Affinity just came out earlier this week so that's 8 pay for sets.
Aside from these very minor adjustments, everything Claws said is dead on. You want a discount on pay for power sets, well, you get them for free if you save up your monthly stipend. A 100% discount sounds good to me.
Is there the chance that players, including VIP's will have to spend real money if they want to get EVERYTHING that Paragon releases? Oh yeah, if you want everything, prepare to shell out cash.
Is this a "bad" thing? No. Paragon Studios is trying to make money, pure and simple.
Are they giving us our money's worth? In my opinion, yes they are.
I get that some people feel differently than I do and their opinions mean as much to them as mine does to me.
The simple fact is, Paragon is a business and the point to any business is to make money. Paragon seems to be making more money because we the players are seeing new things at a much faster rate than we did before the game went to the hybrid model. Which probably means that they are putting at least some of this new money back into the game, and not just filling their wallets.
And that makes me happy.
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
It took me a while to come around, but I do feel like a VIP.
I'm the guy who buys every costume piece (with very few exceptions) and all power sets that come out, and I have had to come out of pocket at various times (and let's not talk about the Super Pack fiasco). Even so, I feel like I'm getting more game for my money than I used to.
I'm loving my Nature Affinity/Rad Defender at the moment. 
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Well then they ought to make us feel more important.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
You have this backwards. The devs are on record as saying the subscription model is what they are hoping to entice people into going with. Premium/Free is their way of hopefully getting SOMETHING from players that aren't a RELIABLE source of income.
V.I.P. means Very Important Person. There's a reason subscribers are called VIP. You're insane if you don't think VIP's are treated well or aren't the preferred customers. You have no logical basis for such a claim at all. |
Yes, you're all correct, the time they're sinking into the Incarnate trials is evidence that they want VIPs. But Incarnate content is generally awful and grindy. The SSAs are even worse. It feels like they're setting aside low-quality meat for the dog. They take the time to set it aside for us, but the best stuff goes to their other customers.
The economics of the Paragon market are even worse for VIPs. You get more Paragon Points and Reward Tokens by purchasing things a la carte as a Premium customer. Correct me if my numbers are wrong: VIP status is $10/month at the cheapest, yearly plan, which gets you 550 PP/month. If you buy $10 in microtransactions you get 800 PP/month. Once you're a Tier 9 VIP the economics heavily favor switching to Premium. There's a one-time start-up cost to get access to the walled-off archetypes, but as a Premium player you will get *more* powersets and *more* costume sets for the same amount of money. All you lose is grindy Incarnate content, crappy SSAs, and the neglected superbase system.
If they want to entice people to become VIPs, they're doing a lousy job of it. Being VIP should be demonstrably better than being a Premium player in every way. It isn't, and that why some of us don't feel important.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Remus,
Yes, I get less points/month as a VIP, but I also get a decent amount of stuff that I DON'T need to pay for in the first place. Premium players don't get ANY free powersets, so they'd need to buy those. Want to run the SSAs? Those are 10 bucks a piece, that I don't need to pay for.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
You could always unsub then |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
It isn't, and that why some of us don't feel important.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I buy yearly subscriptions, so I only need to make that decision once per year. Every year I agonize over it. Last year I hit the button after realizing that I didn't have anything else to play. That isn't always going to be true; in fact, some very tempting games are coming along in just a few months.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You could always unsub then
|
Right now I'm coasting on a decision I made last year. CoH needs to do something amazing to keep me, given the current state of affairs. I see no indication that they'll do that -- they *like* the way things are, even if it means losing players that have been here since launch, even if it means bleeding people away. All I can say is that no love affair lasts forever, and good luck to all.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Quote:
How is it contradicting what I said? I didn't say all or every, I said very limited and usually. I never said we never got any for free, I just didn't bother picking them out of the list and doing a count, because the number we paid for was obviously greater.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
On the contrary, Sonic Blast and Sonic Resonance were released with Trick Arrow and Archery, in issue 5. Dual Blades and Willpower were added in issue 11. Shield Defense and Pain Domination were added in issue 13. Issue 16 provided powerset proliferation.
All of those were available for no additional cost. I believe that everyone who had a CoH or CoV account was given full access to both games prior to Pain Domination's release. |
You're right that everyone was given CoV, but that was more than a year after their release. Which is precisely my point. We're talking about getting powersets when they come out. Over the history of the game, most new powersets have been behind a pay wall of one form or another when they come out.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
It is not worth staying VIP if you don't do Incarnate content. I have done the calculations and it is more cost effective not paying a sub.