Quote:
Then why did they cut Ice Armor originally? Did Fury change, or was it just a lame excuse?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
This conversation has happened, been beaten to death, and is rotting. Ice does NOT IMPEDE FURY. If I can sit on a Brute with any powerset and punch a RWZ target dummy until I get max attainable Fury, then slows will NOT impede Fury.
|
Also: just because you can generate max fury with your attacks, wouldn't it be faster if you also got the fury from attacks against you? And doesn't slow affect that? So Ice Armor (and Melee) would be weaker in terms of fury generation than other sets that don't slow.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
No doubt it would be faster, but that's not the same as "it doesn't work with Fury" which is the age-old dead-horse excuse that's been around the forums ever since Castle said it.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Then why did they cut Ice Armor originally? Did Fury change, or was it just a lame excuse?
Also: just because you can generate max Fury with your attacks, wouldn't it be faster if you also got the Fury from attacks against you? And doesn't slow affect that? So Ice Armor (and Melee) would be weaker in terms of Fury generation than other sets that don't slow. |
A good example of why that argument falls flat is Dark Armor. Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom place nearby enemies in a mezzed state-- literally unable to attack. THAT definitely impedes Fury generation and no one seems to have a problem with that.
EDIT: I've always said that if not being attacked is a hindrance to Fury generation, than killing enemies is the worst thing you could do for your Brute. Does that make sense? No, and neither does the "slow doesn't work with Fury" argument.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
I know. But still closer to the concept I want, the happier I'll be |
Originally Posted by Starsman
Ninjitsu (out of IO) is not extremely sturdy (mainly due to how many powrs are utility and not mitigation.)
|
Quote:
| You can just give it the Energy Aura treatment for Hide, but look for how many issues EA sucked. |
Quote:
| Adding a damage buff is thematic with the "offense and utility over survivability" design sets like Fire and Shields have. |
Quote:
| And they got Energy Aura before tanks! |
Quote:
Take it you would LOVE caltrops being swapped for Fast Healing then 
|
Though I always thought replacing Caltrops with Fast Healing was a good and simple and easy replacement that didn't really leave Stalkers going "OMG UNFAIR" though I'm sure some would.
Quote:
A rib cracking ninja sounts fun 
|
Quote:
| I am curious why that set didnt go for stalkers... there is no DOT... there is the momentum/combo like mechanic but that did not stop Street Justice... /shrug |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
While I will never spend time watching these coffee talks again, this does indeed sound like excellent news and something that would in fact blow this old mind if they did it.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe they might look at removing rooting when using some/all powers? I think that'd count as "mind-blowing", even if it might need a bit of animation work.
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
It's not "news" - they didn't mention anythinG about it at all - I'm just trying to think of things that they could do to powers in general that'd count as "mind-blowing" |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
While I will never spend time watching these coffee talks again, this does indeed sound like excellent news and something that would in fact blow this old mind if they did it.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Wouldn't it still cool down their anger a bit?
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Ice does NOT IMPEDE FURY.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Whether or not Ice was pulled from Brutes during the CoV beta due to the slows hindering fury generation (that's what we were told, fwiw) is actually far less relevant than it once was thanks to the increased retention time of generated fury while in combat. I could see the set possibly being a little slower to generate fury early on, when you depend more upon enemy attacks to generate fury. But once a player has a sufficient number of attacks, it shouldn't be that bad.
I'd like for Synapse to port Ice over to Brutes on the beta server purely as an experiment to see what would happen.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Okay, first of all, let's be clear: nobody announced a new round of proliferation yesterday or confirmed anything for issue 25. They spitballed some possible proliferations for the next round, which could be in issue 25. It was presented as, "hey, you know what we could do? This." "Yeah, we could do that. And also this other thing." "Well if we do that other thing, what about that issue with it?" an so on. It wasn't a serious discussion. At most they were dropping a few hints, but that's all.
That said, it really did sound to me like Synapse had more to say re: his ideas for Stone Armor before ordering lunch sidetracked them. You'd think they'd have an "ON AIR" sign, or at least make sure the rest of the office knew when they were doing these things by yelling "quiet on the set" before they start.
Quote:
It doesn't sound like it, no. Actually, what they said was that if it ever gets ported to brutes, Ice Armor might end up being a "use at your own risk" set -- that phrase specifically was used. Basically, they're okay with it under-performing (if that's even really the case) as long as players who take it for concept reasons are aware it might be an under-performer mechanically. So, I guess in the same boat as something like Poison or Energy Melee or Any Blast Set That Isn't Fire now.
|
Originally Posted by Desi_Nova
Ice for brutes? does this mean that synapse has figured out a way to make the slows compatible with fury?
|
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
Quote:
That's a very weak excuse. It was also used for shield def, but shields actually had mechanics issues (taunt aura to boost damage, buffing ally defenses, shield charge AoE insanity)
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
They didn't think it fit the theme of Stalkers. But then, a lot of things don't fit the setting of a modern day superhero setting.
|
Quote:
Lame excuse.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Then why did they cut Ice Armor originally? Did Fury change, or was it just a lame excuse?
|
We got the real reason later - the development team at that time wanted every AT to have a unique primary and secondary.
We have a different team now of course.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
Considering the leaked power descriptions of Psionic Melee have GOBS of -Recharge in them, the "ice won't work with Fury" thing holds even LESS water.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
It doesn't sound like it, no. Actually, what they said was that if it ever gets ported to brutes, Ice Armor might end up being a "use at your own risk" set -- that phrase specifically was used. Basically, they're okay with it under-performing (if that's even really the case) as long as players who take it for concept reasons are aware it might be an under-performer mechanically. So, I guess in the same boat as something like Poison or Energy Melee or Any Blast Set That Isn't Fire now.
|
I really wish they'd made a better excuse for not porting Ice to Brutes so people would have latched on to something that made sense rather than something that's been mechanically shot down hundreds of times in the Brute forums.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
There were a ton of trolls in the chat stream, which was unfortunate. It's no wonder that some of the other employees, especially the female ones, don't want to be shown on-camera when you have perverted dimwits going crazy because they heard an off-screen woman's voice once.
Props to Hit Streak for keeping his finger on the trigger during the latter portion of the live stream, it made the chat far more tolerable.
And more on-topic, about Ninjitsu for Scrappers... I think it makes sense.
You'd have to remove Hide, Caltrops, and probably change Smoke Flash. No big deal. Move Ninja Reflexes and Danger Sense upwards in the tree. Move Kuji-in Rin up a slot, so you'd have a new T3 (instead of Hide), the T4 would be the status protection of Kuji-in Rin, and a new T5 and a changed Smoke Flash. I would suggest that the change to Smoke Flash be a -To-Hit, -DMG debuff. You could even keep it called Smoke Flash if you wanted, and it'd be PBAE still.
The T3 power I would make a passive that grants movement speed, recharge, and an infrequent short-term buff to Defense that would last maybe a second or two. Perhaps call it "Ninja Agility" or "Sixth Sense". The T5 could be something akin to Cloak of Darkness or Energy Cloak and grant a small boost to defense, stealth, and +perception. There ya go, Ninjitsu.
(I didn't read the thread and I have a feeling other people have said the exact same things)
Quote:
Roger.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's not "news" - they didn't mention anythinG about it at all - I'm just trying to think of things that they could do to powers in general that'd count as "mind-blowing"
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
Hide doesn't have to be removed, although it would have to just be a stealth/def power like Cloak of Darkness. I'd vote the speed power from Martial Combat in place of Caltrops.|
Originally Posted by Psychoti
You'd have to remove Hide, Caltrops, and probably change Smoke Flash. No big deal. Move Ninja Reflexes and Danger Sense upwards in the tree. Move Kuji-in Rin up a slot, so you'd have a new T3 (instead of Hide), the T4 would be the status protection of Kuji-in Rin, and a new T5 and a changed Smoke Flash. I would suggest that the change to Smoke Flash be a -To-Hit, -DMG debuff. You could even keep it called Smoke Flash if you wanted, and it'd be PBAE still.
|
Quote:
| We got the real reason later - the development team at that time wanted every AT to have a unique primary and secondary. |
Quote:
Besides the two often-repeated reasons for why Ice was pulled, there's also the fact that when Brutes came out, Ice Melee was far and away the worst offensive melee attack set in the game. Barely any AoE, bad single-target damage, and enough control to further hinder fury generation (at the time, you could basically remove 6 enemies of anything under EB rank from the fight). A lot of the problem came from Ice Melee, not Ice Armor. The slows were only part of the problem. The problem was a combination of the slows, controls and the horrible damage.
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Lame excuse.
We got the real reason later - the development team at that time wanted every AT to have a unique primary and secondary. We have a different team now of course. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Is this going to be posted on YouTube? I tried to view it on twitch.tv but nothing happens, just the CoH logo .. and nothing.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
Changing Hide in Ninjitsu to a Cloak of Darkness clone is simple enough.
The problems stem from 3 powers: caltrops, smoke flash, and blinding powder.
Caltrops needs to be replaced by something entirely new.
Smoke Flash: some say adding a to-hit debuff a la smoke grenade is a simple fix, except that...
Blinding Powder: already has a to-hit debuff. Also, the devs may feel that it offers too much control with a sleep and confuse tied to it.
And when you think about it, using smoke flash with a placate is simulating the ninja smoke bomb where the enemy completely loses sight of the ninja who disappeared when it went off. Losing the "ninja tools" from the set in favor of regen, endurance, or other such powers tied directly to making a character more sturdy is less thematic.
Quote:
It's under the videos tab below the main screen area.
|
Originally Posted by cohRock
Is this going to be posted on YouTube? I tried to view it on twitch.tv but nothing happens, just the CoH logo .. and nothing.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
On the plus side, for any first time viewers tunign in because it was on the Twitch front page, the screen bombing showed a lot of active players, a selection of the diversity of the costume creator, power sets and emotes, and a friendly and interactive dev team.
|
Originally Posted by Psychoti
There were a ton of trolls in the chat stream, which was unfortunate. It's no wonder that some of the other employees, especially the female ones, don't want to be shown on-camera when you have perverted dimwits going crazy because they heard an off-screen woman's voice once.
Props to Hit Streak for keeping his finger on the trigger during the latter portion of the live stream, it made the chat far more tolerable. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
While we're on the subject... Bane Spider's Shatter and Shatter Armor are literally the exact same animation. And if you use one right after the other, sometimes the second attack won't even animate.
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It's okay if the power has a different name! Doms can get Caltrops and Thorntrops, which are basically the same; then there are all the "TT" powers that SoA get.
Rename the power "Footspikes"! |
Quote:
Normally the CoH logo is on for about two minutes before Zwill starts talking.
|
Originally Posted by cohRock
Is this going to be posted on YouTube? I tried to view it on twitch.tv but nothing happens, just the CoH logo .. and nothing.
|
Goodbye. Not to the game, but the players. Goodbye. Everyone, remember to have fun. That's all I can say.
Quote:
^ This is what I remember.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Besides the two often-repeated reasons for why Ice was pulled, there's also the fact that when Brutes came out, Ice Melee was far and away the worst offensive melee attack set in the game. Barely any AoE, bad single-target damage, and enough control to further hinder fury generation (at the time, you could basically remove 6 enemies of anything under EB rank from the fight). A lot of the problem came from Ice Melee, not Ice Armor. The slows were only part of the problem. The problem was a combination of the slows, controls and the horrible damage.
|
The set's Recharge Slows and Controls (like the original, stacking damage-less sleep of Frozen Aura) were just too good at slowing down incoming attacks. That made for slower Fury generation. Combine that with a set that was poor at single-target damage and had only Frost (with a shorter range than it has now) for AoE damage and it was just not a good set for the Brute AT at the time. Original Ice Melee was clearly designed with Tankers in mind and that design didn't translate well to Brutes.
Ice Armor wasn't as bad on it's own, but it was still a set that combined Slows, End Drain, and then Hibernate which was pretty much "heal your wounds, lose all Fury".
The two being a thematic pair certainly didn't help, either.
It's also important to keep in mind Fury used to be much more difficult to maintain. The rate at which it degraded was slowed down in Issue 18 (with the devs instead making it much more difficult to reach higher amounts of Fury).
I can't say I recall 'all ATs needing a unique powerset' being a reasoning. Afterall, CoV launched with Brutes having no unique powersets.
I'd say these days, with Ice Melee's better AoE potential and the change to the Fury mechanic in Issue 18, the Ice sets should be okay with the Brute AT. Fury is easy to build at the start of combat, which wouldn't be hindered by Recharge Slows (since an enemy would need to use all their attacks first to feel its effects), and with Fury degrading slower, it would be easier to maintain these days than it was in CoV beta.
The only real issue I see is Mob AI, which runs away if no attack will be recharged in 10 seconds.
Quote:
You're missing the point. The general policy (at least as I understand it) is that no single character can get two identical powers. Caltrops and Thorntrops for Doms don't count because they are in different powersets, so a single character cannot take both.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It's okay if the power has a different name! Doms can get Caltrops and Thorntrops, which are basically the same; then there are all the "TT" powers that SoA get.
|
Now it would be possible to avoid the policy by giving Scrappers a different type of slow patch (maybe Glue Grenades?). Personally though I'd rather give it something different. that way players who want Caltrops can still have them and other players get something new.
Just finished watching the Coffee Talk.
When you guys say you can play for free, you really need to mention that you can play from 1-50 indefinitely. Play for free just sounds like one of those short trials.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."