MM's and incarnates content, lack of ballace in MM's, huge differences between old and new sets...
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2012-08-04 08:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Not quite. Masterminds are very strong against some enemies, but almost useless against others. Extreme levels of shock damage, such as what comes of the Wyvern EB in the Respec Trial, can one-shot most henchmen, and do so repeatedly, while even moderate levels of AoE damage can tear them to shreds. Mako's Fonts of Power at the end of his second Patron arc are, at least as far as I'm concerned, nearly impossible to beat. They fire off a custom Psychic Tornado that has a very long range, a very wide AoR radius and is on a very short recharge. I think it might be what the Hydra Head uses in the Abandoned Sewers Trial. The Fonts also deal psychic damage which not all support sets cover, and are quite resistant EBs themselves. Defeating four or six of those solo took me - not joking - three hours when I ran the mission, making me decide to never give Mako as a Patron to any other Mastermind.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
MMs, as an AT, are not under-performing at the level the game is balanced at.
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It's not just specific enemies, though. I can quote the Huntsman and his AoE tree stump that one-shots all minion-class henchmen and two-shots everything else (I survived that via Forcefield Generator, double Seeker Drones on the Huntsman and tightly-crossed fingers), but this problem is evident with every enemy faction that has strong shock damage (say, high-level Tsoo) or lots of AoE (say, Malta). What's more, factions that rely on "patches," (say, Longbow) cause uncontrollable henchman scatter, massive aggro, loss of control and loss of firepower, to say nothing of protection. I would quite literally sooner leave my henchmen to bake in a Flames patch than have them run away on their own, but "Afraid" is an AI command that overrides all others.
Masterminds are very strong... Except when they're not, and when they're not, they're pathetic. To me, that's not good balance. I benefit very little from being overpowered against certain foes when I tend to not need all that power, and I benefit even less from enemies who can wipe away my henchmen before they can get a second shot out. I don't know that better damage or even con henchmen or what is the answer to that problem, but it's a problem that sours the experience nonetheless.
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Entirely tangentially, but: Masterminds CAN hold aggro. Their own threat rating is low (2, I think), but each of their henchmen has a high threat rating (4) which is on the same level as Tankers and Brutes. Yes, pets don't have an inherent Taunt so they're not AS good at holding aggro (considering Taunt is a 100-fold threat modifier, as per Castle and Ghost Widow), but they still CAN hold it. In fact, I've seen many, many instances of a henchman attacking a critter and that critter abandoning the player it was attacking to fight the henchman. I've seen this happening to critters attacking me, I've seen it happening to critters attacking my team-mates. The henchmen's high threat rating and large numbers make them good for stripping the aggro off most players who don't have Taunt built into their attacks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If you're running into a group without your pets, then you are doing something wrong. You need to wait before an engagement for them to catch up, or try outrunning them to force them to tether to you. If they all die during that run, that's an issue. If you just aren't waiting, that's your issue.
I seriously think all Masterminds need are for a portion of inspirations to effect pets within supremacy range. With the knowledge that my pets aren't going to gain from my set bonuses, I just slot for recharge. Buff/debuff faster, and if they die resummon them more reliably.
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that setting them to Passive while traveling makes them attract less attention.
There is one weakness to MMs that I'm surprised no one has mentioned, probably due to how rare it is: Confuse. If a Mastermind is confused, all of his pets will turn on him. Its actually kinda funny.
Most of an MM's problems can be described as a quality of life issue. In actual, straight combat they are one of the most fearsome ATs in the game. Patches do get annoying but that is one of the trade-offs for being so powerful. The devs have shown repeatedly that they can fix AI issues. They have rigged the gun drone and the singularity to prefer range, yet they can't do the same for MM ranged pets?Sometimes I do start to think that the AI issues, while originally unintentional, are now a balance point. Think of how much more powerful robots could be if they actually stayed at range, or if the Oni prioritized his attacks and Jounin didn't waste their Hide crit on a Poison Dart. How much more useful could the Arsonist and the Medic be if they didn't try to punch things? Mastermind AI may very well be the only thing keeping them from taking over the world.
Not that I agree that using a bug as a balance point is ever a good idea, but this might be why, after years of asking for a fix, Mastermind AI still sucks.
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Same here. My thugs MM has two personal attacks 4-slotted, but I slotted them only with Procs. Still not the greatest damage, but at least it ignores their awful damage mod. And often enough, 2 or 3 of the procs go off at once. Then it's pretty good.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm the poor sod who keeps taking and slotting and using these attacks, and I always feel like a fool when I do it. But God damn it! I want my commander to be able to fire a rifle and thugonomics graduate to be able to pop caps in people's *****!
 Which is to say I'm biassed - I take these attacks, and I just want them to stop sucking. |
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I am personally very much in favor of fixing the AI issues and scaling back the damage to even out the DPS boosts. If I can play a mastermind and not have to babysit the pets like a bunch of coked up kittens so I can play my secondary properly the QOL on the game would be a ton better.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that setting them to Passive while traveling makes them attract less attention.
There is one weakness to MMs that I'm surprised no one has mentioned, probably due to how rare it is: Confuse. If a Mastermind is confused, all of his pets will turn on him. Its actually kinda funny. Most of an MM's problems can be described as a quality of life issue. In actual, straight combat they are one of the most fearsome ATs in the game. Patches do get annoying but that is one of the trade-offs for being so powerful. The devs have shown repeatedly that they can fix AI issues. They have rigged the gun drone and the singularity to prefer range, yet they can't do the same for MM ranged pets?Sometimes I do start to think that the AI issues, while originally unintentional, are now a balance point. Think of how much more powerful robots could be if they actually stayed at range, or if the Oni prioritized his attacks and Jounin didn't waste their Hide crit on a Poison Dart. How much more useful could the Arsonist and the Medic be if they didn't try to punch things? Mastermind AI may very well be the only thing keeping them from taking over the world. Not that I agree that using a bug as a balance point is ever a good idea, but this might be why, after years of asking for a fix, Mastermind AI still sucks. |
I'd be against an AI fix if it scaled back the DPS. Quality of life and balance should not interfere with each other. And the AI is a bug, make no mistake, and bugs should be fixed.
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A very elitist attitude. Players should be allowed to play how they like. Teamless Defenders gain a damage bonus, petless MMs should get a similar bonus.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
They shouldn't encourage players to play badly.
If you want to pew pew pew, play a class designed for it, or you'll be playing at below optimum power. |
Anyway, you are wrong. The attacks are part of the MM primary, giving them exactly the same status as pet powers. Who are you to dictate that three primary powers are the "right" way to play, and three others are the "wrong" way to play?
I really should do something about this signature.
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Because Masterminds are advertised as a pet class, not a blasting class.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
A very elitist attitude. Players should be allowed to play how they like. Teamless Defenders gain a damage bonus, petless MMs should get a similar bonus.
Anyway, you are wrong. The attacks are part of the MM primary, giving them exactly the same status as pet powers. Who are you to dictate that three primary powers are the "right" way to play, and three others are the "wrong" way to play? |
A petless MM is the same as an armorless Tank or a blastless Blaster. You can do it, go ahead. But its silly.
As someone who plays MMs more than any other AT, my opinion is that MMs as an AT are doing ok. The trouble is that there is a huge gulf between the sets that are "good" (Bots/Thugs/Demons) and the sets that are "not so good" (the rest).
I don't think MMs as a whole need a revamp/update yet, but I would absolutely put Mercenaries up there as the #1 powerset that needs attention in the game. Necro, Ninja and Beasts need something too, although their situation is slightly less dire.
The only other thing that MMs really need is improved pet AI (attack choices, and pathing), and I can't really call that an issue for MMs exclusively, since many pet-using sets frequently lament their pet's performance.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I'm mad.
I logged in my Mercs/ |
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
So playerbase in your opinion is there any other AT that needs help as much as MM's post I24?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Can you say that after I24 there will be any power that is truly worse than serum?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Do you think that the cottage rule should be thrown aside when you compare some of the older MM primary set powers with the new MM sets? Daemons/Beast Mastery as compared to Mercs/Robots?
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Mercs, however, is a problem set. The fix to Mercs would be more damage, reduced cooldown on SpecOps debuff/control grenades, no freaking knockback from Mr. Commando, and for the ******* medic to stop running into melee and dying every five seconds.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
On a team what do you expect the mastermind to do? / What role do you expect him to fill on a team?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Do you think the MM's role on a team changes depending on the content? (I.E. Does the MM do the same job on a paper mish team as he does in the iTrials?)
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Do you consider MM's to be tanks?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Do you think it's fair that some MM's can slot the unique recharge intensive pet IO's and more easily soft cap their pets giving those sets an inherent advantage over sets that don't offer that?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
For that matter do you think it's fair that MM's are "required"(need) to slot 5/7 unique IO's in their primary powers just to bring them up to the point where they last long enough to do anything in the high level content?
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Don't get why everyone keeps saying this. Will do some research on it tho.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Defenders for sure.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Repel. Repulsion Bomb. Repulsion Field. Energy Torrent.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Focused Accuracy. Force of Nature (the one without any mez protection). I could go on.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Robotics, and if you feel there is, I can assure you you're doing it wrong. You can't compare Demons and Beast Mastery to Thugs, Bots or Necro; Demons are incredibly stupid and fail to synergize well, usually due to the 'tank' tier 2 demon dying like a total wuss and the tier 3 demons CONSTANTLY running in to melee range for cone attacks. Beast isn't much better, what with the terrible pet AI and their increased run speed that leaves the MM hammering the "Follow/Return" macro and screaming "WHAT THE PANCAKE ARE YOU DOING" while Fido and his five friends run clear across the map before realizing their master is calling them back, aggroing everything (and I mean EVERYTHING).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Anyone can slot recharge/buffs. You just need to know what IO's give it and where you can put them.
I haven't seen any such requirement anywhere. |
I was talking about the recharge intensive pet sets that have +5% def and +10% resistance IO's Thugs, Demons, and Necro can slot them regardless of their secondary. This means that those sets can start at 20% resistance and 10% defense when stacked with the other ones.
Mercs, Bots, Beast all have to either take a secondary that has a pet or forfeit those IO's; that in my opinion, is not fair. Life isn't fair but this is a game, I think that this is a case where it should be fair. And pets in iTrials don't tend to last long with out them.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
Nalrok, Demons are one of the best and least idiotic sets. They do absurd damage in melee, much more than their ranged attacks, so having them run in is a good thing.
Beasts are incredibly tough and do amazing ST damage when yo let pack mentality build up. Yes, the run speed can get annoying, but I mainly play Ninjas so I'm used to it. And at least Beasts can survive aggroing half the map, unlike ninjas, who without a good secondary can't survive aggroing the air.
The only two that need help for sure are Mercenaries and Ninjas, and I've already posted what I thought should happen to fix them. Necro and Beasts are still just below Bots, Demons, and Thugs, so they could also use some help, but it isn't as needed.
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So what? Controllers are too, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to do anything but summon pets. Fact: MMs have blasts in their primary. If having three useless powers in your primary isn't stupid, I don't know what is.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Because Masterminds are advertised as a pet class, not a blasting class.
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| A petless MM is the same as an armorless Tank or a blastless Blaster. You can do it, go ahead. But its silly. |
I really should do something about this signature.
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The MM attacks in general need a review. They are generally terrible.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
So what? Controllers are too, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to do anything but summon pets. Fact: MMs have blasts in their primary. If having three useless powers in your primary isn't stupid, I don't know what is.
I know plenty of blastless blasters. It's a perfectly viable way to play. There will be more come Martial Combat. |
But anyone is allowed to play how they want.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Excuse you.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Repulsion Bomb.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I still say Serum is worse when you compare it to stuff like Gang War.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I know plenty of blastless blasters. It's a perfectly viable way to play. There will be more come Martial Combat.
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And constantly having their max health debuffed by 20%.
Oh you're certainly allowed to play however you want, but if you want to blast, be a blaster. If you want to be a tank with no armor, be a scrapper with no armor instead. If you want to be a blaster with no blasts, then play melee.
I'm just saying its silly.
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I'll admit that I not only have all three attacks on my robots/traps MM, but I also slotted them each for full sets of Gladiator's Javelin, Apocalypse, and Armageddon into Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst and Photon Grenade; respectively. I even boosted them all to +5. Why? I just wanted to, really.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I hear ya. Until the MMs' personal attacks do more damage than the Vet attacks (Sands, Wand, and Staff), I will never take a MM's personal attack.
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On the other side of things, I'm deliberately omitting all three of those attacks on my robots/forcefield MM, who only recently achieved level 34.
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Wow you Ignored half my post. I said scale back any DPS (here comes the important word) BOOST so that there is no real DPS change, just the ability to not have a militarily trained soldier run into melee to hit the giant killer robot with the back of his gun.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I'd be against an AI fix if it scaled back the DPS. Quality of life and balance should not interfere with each other. And the AI is a bug, make no mistake, and bugs should be fixed.
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With my idea, Mastermind damage would remain the same but you could you know do things like focus on leveraging your secondary and or personal attacks if that is your thing.
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What DPS boost would you be talking about, then?
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Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
Wow you Ignored half my post. I said scale back any DPS (here comes the important word) BOOST so that there is no real DPS change, just the ability to not have a militarily trained soldier run into melee to hit the giant killer robot with the back of his gun.
With my idea, Mastermind damage would remain the same but you could you know do things like focus on leveraging your secondary and or personal attacks if that is your thing. |
Probably the one from Supremacy.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
You could probably change Supremacy if all pets conned even to you.
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Demon_Shell, I honestly think that serum is downright horrible; if you look at it from an AT standpoint or not and then you look at the Mercs as a whole and it just seems like insult to injury.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Serum is the worst Mastermind, unique flavor power due to the crash, yes. But there are more than a few powers that are worse than that.
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the only solution is to remove IO's from the game so that the balance around SO's is felt by all.
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ಠ_ಠ
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
the only solution is to remove io's from the game so that the balance around so's is felt by all.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
If you want to pew pew pew, play a class designed for it, or you'll be playing at below optimum power.
you could have it all
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