Good to be alive... (Re: Batman shooting)
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-20 06:15 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
It's interesting the reactions and thoughts people are having in the aftermath of this event; with all deference to Forbin, I can't advocate any retribution as a means of punishment to this person for a couple of important reasons. The first being my very best friend in the world is mentally ill, and I've seen firsthand and come to understand how much an imagined reality is for someone suffering it.
I have to stress here that I'm not condoning or excusing what happened, but simply saying that if this is the case, then that's something for a professional to judge, not us. Secondly, I'm not an eye for an eye person. My personal belief is that I am not qualified nor of a moral position to determine if someone should live or die based on their crimes. I'm old enough to understand that there is true evil in the world and it should be opposed, but I am not someone who should be allowed to make judgements on another individual. What I have come to start to question in regards to movies like this and the 'action genre' is something I discussed with a good friend only a couple of hours ago, and that is our desensitised reactions to violence and what we take from it. Of course my friend perceptively said 'just like with the Christians and the lions,' and I took that very salient point on board. We're not sitting in crowds baying for blood from real people, but an event like this blurs an already thin line between entertainment and reality. I think Mr. Nolan is a very intelligent and thoughtful filmmaker, but it may be that in drawing a portrait of a superhero in the real world, our acceptance of that being in the real world has become that much easier. This isn't a criticism as such, but for me at least it's something that I think I should consider when things are presented to me as entertainment. I firmly fall into the Golden and Silver Ages of the heroes I prefer, because without that sense of moral purpose and responsibility, without that essential compassion and empathy for another human being, a hero can just as easily be a villain. It's why I embraced the Avengers so wholeheartedly. It's why the heroes I play in this game follow openly in the mold of heroes of decades past. And if the best thing that comes out of this tragedy is that we're reminded of where those lines should be drawn, then I can't see that as a bad thing. S. |
Sorry. But thousands (or millions) of people go to see these pictures with nothing worse coming from it than a bit of entertainment. These people are cognizant of the difference between fantasy and reality.
You CANNOT make predictions about a nebulous mentally ill person.
You CANNOT plan for the actions of nebulous mentally ill persons.
Blaming it on the director, or the genre is disingenuous, and isn't understanding the fact that we're talking about someone whose gears aren't all spinning in the same direction.
Someone who is ill enough that they couldn't differentiate fantasy and reality.
Or someone ill enough that they just didn't care.
And with the news now asking "How can theaters keep their patrons safe?"
They can't. Plain and simple.
If some whack-job takes it into his head to kill people, people are going to get killed. In private, in public. The only way to avoid that is to barricade yourself into a concrete bunker and live the rest of your days out there.
There isn't any sort of protection possible against random nutcases. That's why we call them RANDOM nutcases. You simply can't plan for that sort of thing.
And I refuse to live in a panopticon while someone tries to figure out a way.
As to calls to have this person put down. While they're not an animal, the old "mad dog" analogy still holds true.
If he's put in prison, he'll simply be killed by other inmates unless he's permanently remanded to solitary confinement. These are people looking for any and all ways to feel in control of their situation (as much as they're allowed to). And NOBODY trusts a mad dog for no reason.
And if he's remanded to state psychiatric facilities, what then? After killing 12-ish people and wounding more, he's never getting out. I don't care HOW "cured" anyone declares him. So he what? Sits in a psych facility, "cured" for the rest of his natural life?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
There isn't any sort of protection possible against random nutcases. That's why we call them RANDOM nutcases. You simply can't plan for that sort of thing.
And I refuse to live in a panopticon while someone tries to figure out a way. |
Thank you for that thought. I happen to agree.
Like other rational, normal, people, I am shocked and saddened by this. How could I not be? In my own line of work, this kind of thing is a WCS and has been for many, many years.
Imagine, if you will just one lunatic (and he is) like this getting loose at a major amusement park on a busy summer day...
... It's part of my job to be ready to react to things like this. I wish it weren't.
The important point is that you cannot try to hide in a box and hope the bad people go away. You have to get up in the morning and get on with your life and, as someone else said earlier, trust in the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in the world ARE NOT out to kill you.
This is one of the few times that the word 'tragedy' has been used correctly by the media. I wish that they had never had the opportunity.
"The All-Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer. Your fate is fixed. Fear profits man nothing." -Herger, from the film Thirteenth Warrior.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
Quote:
A similar quote from Liet Kynes in Dune:|
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
"The All-Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer. Your fate is fixed. Fear profits man nothing." -Herger, from the film Thirteenth Warrior.
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'When God hath ordained a creature to die in a particular place, He causeth that creature's wants to direct him to that place.'
Also,
Most men go through life unchallenged, except at the final moment. - God Emperor of Dune
Sayings that I think are very germaine to the whole discussion on whether or not we can protect ourselves from the randomness of the universe.
"Now more than ever we need the Jedi." - Bob Wilton - The Men Who Stare At Goats
The more as time goes by on this tragedy the more information is being released about this whackaloon.... It looks like he had been planning this for about months or so. He had been placing orders online for his "gear" and also the explosives that were found his apartment. There is nothing mentally ill (I should know about mental illness, because I have been diagnosed as such) about that...that is malice of forethought. I do believe a mentally ill person who snaps would not take months building up an arsenal of weapons.
He could have struck at anytime within those 4 months and did not, he knew that the midnight showing of TDKR would be close to sold out and chose....CHOSE....to strike then. What is surprising is that when he opened the emergency exit door no one noticed and I would have imagined an alarm should have gone off.
As for those saying that they would have done something about this guy...heres a qoute for you:
Humans don't "rise to the occasion."
Instead, we fall to our level of training and experience.
-Archilochus
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
I am sick over all this. There are literally dozens of midnight movies in my past. I am a nerd and have been for forty years. I know...like so many on these forums...the sheer joy of those nights. And I am busted...BUSTED...over this.
I have a six year old daughter. The news is just brutal.
In sum...my heart goes out to everyone impacted by this lousy, stinking tragedy.
-------------
@Portland Underground
Sevenpenny, I hate to say this so bluntly, but it is obvious you have no understanding of "mental illness." The scenarios you present (planning vs. mental illness) are not mutually exclusive.
The shooter may be "mentally ill" but I'd say he is competent to stand trial given how he planned this for some time and left several booby traps at his home that authorities have been working to disarm today. So given how he planned everything and left such things at his apartment I'd say that took someone who may be "crazy" but still competent and thus can stand trial and not get off on insanity pleas
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never claimed I did....although I understand what you are stating...
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Sevenpenny, I hate to say this so bluntly, but it is obvious you have no understanding of "mental illness." The scenarios you present (planning vs. mental illness) are not mutually exclusive.
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You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
All I needed to know is what happened and who is and who isn't alright, as a result.
I have zero need for information about the killer, currently. I understand how some people get caught up in it (and I do believe in learning from such things, but not through the media and leaking of information, like a continued play by play of these happenings).
I haven't watched or listened to a single moment of "news" since, and I don't plan to. I truly hope it isn't the case, but I'm sure it's nonstop coverage and updates... and it makes me sick when everyone gets so caught up in giving the attention so insidiously obtained.
Just saying this in case it helps to break anyone free from the strangle hold that the death and fear circus will happily keep you preoccupied with in-between commercials.
Peace and love to everyone.
On the subject of the movies and all... Yeah, this really hits me hard as well. I mean, it really wouldn't make it any less terrible if it happened in a retail store or a sidewalk or ANYWHERE... but something about it being in a movie theatre, during a movie... I imagine it is somewhat akin to how some people would feel if it were a place of worship.
Especially a midnight show. Those have always been the very best and my most favorite movie outings.
This one incident should never have any lasting effects on such activities... besides maybe optimal security on the exit doors... 
Maybe some sort of sensors to indicate if a door is open or not.
I am finding it a bit difficult feeling like I'll be able to let myself go for the duration of the movie 100%, as I like to enjoy my movie experiences.
Honestly, I normally hate being around a theatre full of strangers to watch a movie (with special midnight premieres usually being the exception, due to the above average level of fandom of those patrons). You never know who will talk, who'll be annoying and so on... So, that's always a mental obstacle for me (I have a nice home theatre of my own... with no annoyances!).
Anyway... I honestly fear more-so some idiots either cracking distasteful jokes OR even doing something in memoriam of this horrible tragedy (which would be equally immersion-breaking).
Just my selfish thoughts for the moment... I'm an immersion freak that can have it broken by minor annoyances of the general public...
And then I think about what it would have been like to be in that theatre and that is a devastating thought.
Alright, that's all my rambling about this now... I only post it to vent it out and in case anyone else reading finds anything of value (out of shared feelings/thoughts) in it.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
News media makes my head hurt so bad.... evidently the OP corrected herself.... but still...
So now this guy supposedly showed up in full Joker attire? Since when is riot armor the outfit Heath Ledger wore in TDK and since when was his hair red? No wonder no one really trusts the news media anymore....
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
That first paragraph on Yahoo made me want to put my fist through the monitor...
restraining myself so much right now...
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Yeah. When I read one article where a witness described a little girl who was shot ... Getting pissed off again ... Sorry I kinda feel bad that I don't feel the same way about all victims but when I see/hear about women and girls getting hurt I see red.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
That first paragraph on Yahoo made me want to put my fist through the monitor...
restraining myself so much right now... |
Chazz, LSK, glad to know you are both ok and unharmed. My heart goes out to the families and friends of those injured, lost and affected by this horrible act of cowardice.
Comic and Hero/Villain Culture
Saturday January 29th, 2005 (12:37 PM) ~ Monday August 9th, 2010
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
While I do respect your opinion on this topic I believe that we as a society have a moral responsibility not to punish the innocent victims of these tragedies by forcing them to not only live with the fear that a cold blooded mass murderer may one day be released or escape, but also while he is imprisoned pay to feed him, clothe him, educate him, provide shelter, and keep him healthy for the rest of his life. Not to mention the amount of money, time, and resources that get wasted on a trial where there's no question of his guilt, and the pain and suffering the innocent victims will have to thru reliving those tragic events.
As to mental illness, I'm all in favor of treatment until it leads to violence. Once innocent people start getting hurt we have to make sure it never happens again, and that takes me back to my opinion about not punishing the victims that I previously stated. Now having shared our opinions I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree. |
That was never at question, sir.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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I'll keep my responses brief in deference to the fact that what's happened isn't about me or my opinions as much as it isn't about anyone else's. To derail into these sorts of discussions isn't really appropriate, I don't think. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Sorry. But thousands (or millions) of people go to see these pictures with nothing worse coming from it than a bit of entertainment. These people are cognizant of the difference between fantasy and reality.
You CANNOT make predictions about a nebulous mentally ill person. You CANNOT plan for the actions of nebulous mentally ill persons. Blaming it on the director, or the genre is disingenuous, and isn't understanding the fact that we're talking about someone whose gears aren't all spinning in the same direction. Someone who is ill enough that they couldn't differentiate fantasy and reality. Or someone ill enough that they just didn't care. And with the news now asking "How can theaters keep their patrons safe?" They can't. Plain and simple. If some whack-job takes it into his head to kill people, people are going to get killed. In private, in public. The only way to avoid that is to barricade yourself into a concrete bunker and live the rest of your days out there. There isn't any sort of protection possible against random nutcases. That's why we call them RANDOM nutcases. You simply can't plan for that sort of thing. And I refuse to live in a panopticon while someone tries to figure out a way. As to calls to have this person put down. While they're not an animal, the old "mad dog" analogy still holds true. If he's put in prison, he'll simply be killed by other inmates unless he's permanently remanded to solitary confinement. These are people looking for any and all ways to feel in control of their situation (as much as they're allowed to). And NOBODY trusts a mad dog for no reason. And if he's remanded to state psychiatric facilities, what then? After killing 12-ish people and wounding more, he's never getting out. I don't care HOW "cured" anyone declares him. So he what? Sits in a psych facility, "cured" for the rest of his natural life? |
I'm not blaming anyone or anything about what happened. What I stated about my reaction to this event is strictly for myself and isn't intended to be a generic statement about the state of media and our reaction to it. It was how I felt, and noone else because I don't presume to speak for anyone other than myself. I do want to be categorically clear that this is my personal reaction and thoughts on this event, and if I wasn't clear about that, then I apologise. If for whatever reason you should not choose to accept that, then I will politely suggest we agree to disagree and move on, as such a discussion serves noone any good.
You clearly are of a different mindset on how to respond to a situation and I respect your viewpoint even if I don't agree with it. And considering neither your nor my positions have ever led to any definitive or concrete long-term solutions to these incidents, we will be continuing to wrestle with these dilemmas until we find a third or even fourth alternative that lasts longer than prison or psychiatric treatment combined.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Sevenpenny
As for those saying that they would have done something about this guy...heres a qoute for you:
Humans don't "rise to the occasion." Instead, we fall to our level of training and experience. -Archilochus |
What worries me about this is that some may rise beyond the level of their competence and get more people killed. So to those wanting to take the 'Guardian Angel' route; please maintain the appropriate level of training needed to fulfill the role you're intending.
I would hope that incidents like this would inspire an expansion of our disaster preparedness and response curriculum; this type of action is becoming prevalent enough to warrant it.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Jeez, does anyone proofread those Yahoo articles? |
Originally Posted by Sevenpenny
News media makes my head hurt so bad.... evidently the OP corrected herself.... but still...
So now this guy supposedly showed up in full Joker attire? Since when is riot armor the outfit Heath Ledger wore in TDK and since when was his hair red? No wonder no one really trusts the news media anymore.... |
I'm assuming when they say his hair was painted red it's in reference to the hospital scene in TDK where the Joker is posing as a red-headed nurse before he blows the place sky high.
Freedom
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Yellowside: Dark'Falcon (Loyalist), lvl 20, Blaster
That Stinging Sensation #482183
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What? Hold the "media" to standards in reporting instead of letting them embellish stories as long as they apologize with a retraction later?|
Originally Posted by Night-Hawk07
Jeez, does anyone proofread those Yahoo articles?
I'm assuming when they say his hair was painted red it's in reference to the hospital scene in TDK where the Joker is posing as a red-headed nurse before he blows the place sky high. |
That's, that's just crazy talk.
I just hope that we can learn lessons from this tragedy, and that no one starts a war against comic books, or stops making movies about superheroes because of this.
I have learned many wonderful things from comic books, that with great power comes great responsibility, that there was a man called Shakespeare who wrote some pretty cool stuff, that you have to keep trying to do what's right, even if you make mistakes, because to do otherwise is to surrender to the darkness.
Superheroes can inspire people to be so much better than they are now, as Jor-El says in the first Superman movie, "They can be a great people Kal-El, they just lack the light to show the way."
So I hope, that there is not a another return to the comic code, or more calls for censorship, or any other knee jerk reactions to this tragedy.
My heart goes out to those who were lost, and those who now have a life sentence and have to deal with the pain that someone was there, who is now gone.
So much innocence lost...
And as long as we are quoting people, "Without heroes, we are all plain people and don't know how far we can go."
Bernard Malamud
"Star Wars is adolescent nonsense; Close Encounters is obscurantist drivel; "Star Trek" can turn your brains to puree of bat guano; and the greatest science fiction series of all time is Dr. Who! "
Harlan Ellison
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I was more referring to the jumbled mess of text than the content, but nevertheless.... |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
What? Hold the "media" to standards in reporting instead of letting them embellish stories as long as they apologize with a retraction later?
That's, that's just crazy talk. |
Freedom
Blueside: Knight'Hawk, lvl 50, Scrapper
Yellowside: Dark'Falcon (Loyalist), lvl 20, Blaster
That Stinging Sensation #482183
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People are quick to knee jerk reactions, yes. However if it wasn't Batman and the Joker that this guy got fixated on and became inspired to do this heinous act, it would have been something else that set him off. |
Originally Posted by Green_Watch
I just hope that we can learn lessons from this tragedy, and that no one starts a war against comic books, or stops making movies about superheroes because of this.
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Just like I do not blame Doom, or Grand Theft Auto or other games for the other heinous act committed years ago in Colorado at a certain school.
Anything could set someone like this off at any time, people will be quick to blame the thing that served as the catalyst and not realize that those that commit these crimes are sometimes sick or sometimes just evil, or a bit of both.
Hi everyone,
We share everyone's grief at the tragic happenings of last week, and understand that emotions run high at such things. We have left this thread open for discussion of these events, and for respectful remembrances of the victims, and we would ask that you refrain from calls to violence, or overly political discussion, as the City of Heroes Freedom forums are simply not well-suited to such things.
Thank you all,
~Mod13
He was researching microRNA to see if they could explain how some mental illnesses are triggered. Was going to or did present a paper on it around the time he cracked and started planning this.
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