If you don't like the writing...
By
.Viridian.,
Posted on: 2012-07-19 13:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I remember having a similar conversation with you at the most recent Pummit about this. It gives me hope that stuff like this is helping to improve the quality of the missions we run. |
Originally Posted by .Viridian.
I personally find feedback on writing, storylines, lore et al. to be quite useful. When Im putting together a storyarc, I try my best to tap into the kinds of stories that our playerbase is looking for. This is harder to do when Im working on something thats tied to the larger narrative, but even small changes in storytelling style can make a world of difference if those changes are what your audience is after.
The biggest lesson that the community has taught me personally is how to write better villain content. A lot of feedback Ive seen on the forums has asked for villain stories that are self-driven and proactive. Its a lot more fun to hatch your own diabolical scheme than to have one handed to you by Arachnos. Its more difficult to write, certainly, but the payoff is usually worth it. If it werent for direct and critical feedback from the community, I might not have learned that lesson so quickly (if at all). So personally, I welcome constructive criticism. Sometimes people can get... passionate about the storylines, certainly, but isn't that a good thing? Besides, I already knew Id need to have thick skin if I wanted to succeed in this industry.  |
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
...I have never run into a positive comment from Venture. It could just be because I'm not active enough on the fora...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
 (Beard not optional if keeper is female) |
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
So...a professional Fanwanker? (It's a perfectly valid term, and any connotations you're attaching to it are your own PANCAKE fault.)
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
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THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
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It's not about "shoehorning pop culture into easily definable laws", it's about classifying recurring phenomena that do exist in creative media, and thus creating a useful additional specialized vocabulary for applying to the analysis and production of creative works.|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Ah.
Well, I'll admit I didn't actually read the page (or any of the definitions) because I feel trying to shoehorn pop culture into easily definable laws is inherently silly, but things like Godwin's Law does give me a chuckle from time to time. |
Brainstorming conversation version 1:
A: "I think we might be stretching plausibility a bit on page 17 of the script."
B: "How about we hang a lampshade on it?"
A: "That could work."
Version 2:
A: "I think we might be stretching plausibility a bit on page 17 of the script."
B: "Well, maybe we could this thing... you know, it's been done before, like when one of the characters in-universe talks about how the thing that's before them is really implausible, from a in-universe perspective. And thus, we get buy-in from the audience that they are having the same perspective on the implausibility as the author, which takes a lot of the negative impact away. Or we could use some other mechanism to draw attention to the implausibility of the events beside character exposition, as long as we draw attention to it, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug..."
A: "I think I know what you are getting at..."
TVTropes simply creates a common reference point, and the shorthand vocabulary can be very useful at times.
To me, people who suggest that the classification of pop culture by TV Tropes is misguided sound a lot like people who said physicists just don't appreciate the beauty of rainbows because they go on EXPLAINING them with all this talk of photons and variable light wavelengths.
I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
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Agreed. But then critics (by that I mean professional ones) would not exist.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Criticism is useless if you don't offer a solution or alternative on how to improve the issue at hand. If you're going to tear something apart at least bring something to the table or your critique will just sound like an overgrown puppy tearing up the evening newspaper.
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I believe what the problem is has already been addressed. There are some who will refuse to even entertain others opinions, only their own.
In other words....lalalalalalalalI'mnotlisteninglalalalalaa lal
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Impossible.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Once several years back he was absolutely positive I was on drugs.
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Machines cannot be on drugs.
Unless they are from Transmetropolitan of course...Link NSFW due to language
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Hmn. I like you. I'm going to call you Steve |
Originally Posted by .Viridian.
I personally find feedback on writing, storylines, lore et al. to be quite useful. When Im putting together a storyarc, I try my best to tap into the kinds of stories that our playerbase is looking for. This is harder to do when Im working on something thats tied to the larger narrative, but even small changes in storytelling style can make a world of difference if those changes are what your audience is after.
The biggest lesson that the community has taught me personally is how to write better villain content. A lot of feedback Ive seen on the forums has asked for villain stories that are self-driven and proactive. Its a lot more fun to hatch your own diabolical scheme than to have one handed to you by Arachnos. Its more difficult to write, certainly, but the payoff is usually worth it. If it werent for direct and critical feedback from the community, I might not have learned that lesson so quickly (if at all). So personally, I welcome constructive criticism. Sometimes people can get... passionate about the storylines, certainly, but isn't that a good thing? Besides, I already knew Id need to have thick skin if I wanted to succeed in this industry. |
The short version; give us more writing like D-Mac and Leonard! Those arcs were awesome! And please, never again do what you did in Dr Graves! That was....'bad'. To put it mildly....
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Shagster
It's not about "shoehorning pop culture into easily definable laws", it's about classifying recurring phenomena that do exist in creative media, and thus creating a useful additional specialized vocabulary for applying to the analysis and production of creative works.
Brainstorming conversation version 1: A: "I think we might be stretching plausibility a bit on page 17 of the script." B: "How about we hang a lampshade on it?" A: "That could work." Version 2: A: "I think we might be stretching plausibility a bit on page 17 of the script." B: "Well, maybe we could this thing... you know, it's been done before, like when one of the characters in-universe talks about how the thing that's before them is really implausible, from a in-universe perspective. And thus, we get buy-in from the audience that they are having the same perspective on the implausibility as the author, which takes a lot of the negative impact away. Or we could use some other mechanism to draw attention to the implausibility of the events beside character exposition, as long as we draw attention to it, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug..." A: "I think I know what you are getting at..." TVTropes simply creates a common reference point, and the shorthand vocabulary can be very useful at times. To me, people who suggest that the classification of pop culture by TV Tropes is misguided sound a lot like people who said physicists just don't appreciate the beauty of rainbows because they go on EXPLAINING them with all this talk of photons and variable light wavelengths. |
Heh I've been called a "hipster" before for referring to TVTropes while in conversations. I was insulted. I am NOT a hipster, I'm a nerd
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I cannot help but applaud this attitude, and be glad you are working on my favorite game.|
Originally Posted by .Viridian.
I personally find feedback on writing, storylines, lore et al. to be quite useful. When Im putting together a storyarc, I try my best to tap into the kinds of stories that our playerbase is looking for. This is harder to do when Im working on something thats tied to the larger narrative, but even small changes in storytelling style can make a world of difference if those changes are what your audience is after.
The biggest lesson that the community has taught me personally is how to write better villain content. A lot of feedback Ive seen on the forums has asked for villain stories that are self-driven and proactive. Its a lot more fun to hatch your own diabolical scheme than to have one handed to you by Arachnos. Its more difficult to write, certainly, but the payoff is usually worth it. If it werent for direct and critical feedback from the community, I might not have learned that lesson so quickly (if at all). So personally, I welcome constructive criticism. Sometimes people can get... passionate about the storylines, certainly, but isn't that a good thing? Besides, I already knew Id need to have thick skin if I wanted to succeed in this industry. |
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Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
C'mon, people, we're dealing with a game based on comic books - if the writing weren't wildly inconsistent, it wouldn't have that *authentic* feel.
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I think it probably does a disservice to the genre and the industry to imply that comic book material HAS to be that way. From personal experience, I know of at least one comic book company editor who tries to keep things consistent in his particular comic book universe (which, to be fair, is no guarantee that there won't be inconsistencies with stuff from the previous editor's tenure).
I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)
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This. Damn, dirty hipsters. |
Originally Posted by Rufus T Fyrfly
Heh I've been called a "hipster" before for referring to TVTropes while in conversations. I was insulted. I am NOT a hipster, I'm a nerd
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Example Conversation #3
Hipster: "Man, that episode/story arc/issue/webisode/independent film really hung a lampshade on that, didn't it?"
Normal person: "What?"
Hipster: "What do you mean, what?"
Normal person: "Hang a lampshade? What the PANCAKE are you talking about?"
Hipster: "Really? You don't know what that means?" *scoff*
From Cracked: "Hipster" is another one of those subcultures that is hard to nail down. It can refer to any number of bands, people or situations. But just like emos have bitchiness and goths have acne scarring, hipsters can generally be identified by their completely unwarranted arrogance.
While most well adjusted members of society view [pop culture] as an enjoyable addendum to life, perhaps a distraction or even a hobby, hipsters know that [pop culture] is serious business. Having been picked on since a very young age by those who found their talents lay in athletics, theythey decided the ideal place to exercise influence was in the fields of [experiencing pop culture] and putting on clothes. Most people who aren't hipsters recognize these areas as naturally subjective, and generally not worth giving much of a crap about, which allows hipsters to win the argument for the simple reason that they're the only ones who care enough to notice that it's going on.
Read more: Hipster | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/funny-4573-hi...#ixzz21B3zVcw9
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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Hipster is Doing It Wrong.
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Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
This. Damn, dirty hipsters.
Example Conversation #3 Hipster: "Man, that episode/story arc/issue/webisode/independent film really hung a lampshade on that, didn't it?" Normal person: "What?" Hipster: "What do you mean, what?" Normal person: "Hang a lampshade? What the PANCAKE are you talking about?" Hipster: "Really? You don't know what that means?" *scoff* |
I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)
Does Internet pop culture qualify as real pop culture yet? And if so, wouldn't referencing cracked.com to make the point be hanging a lampshade on it? 
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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What if I like to argue and complain? I am a jerk and darn proud of it. |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
So I ask, please, for the sake of everyone, to stop arguing and complaining about the writing. If you must, please do so at the appropriate threads, and not in the midst of unrelated discussions. I'm only asking this because I'm tired of arguments. You may not like the writing, and I can see where you're coming from. But I do not want to hear about it. Thank you, and goodbye.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Is Cracked an Internet site? Yes.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Does Internet pop culture qualify as real pop culture yet? And if so, wouldn't referencing cracked.com to make the point be hanging a lampshade on it?
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Does their writeup of the inherent ridiculousness of the "hipster culture" function as a great beacon of hope in an otherwise daunting sea of douchebags? Yes.
Definition of HIPSTER
: a person who is unusually aware of and interested in new and unconventional patterns (as in jazz or fashion)
Origin of HIPSTER
First Known Use: 1940
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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Ah, so: "But the real reason hipsters get so much hate is probably just the smugness. According to certain alarmists, hipsters are not just Acceptable Targets, but an occasion for outright panic. To them, hipsters represent Friedrich Nietzsche's Last Man: they stand for nothing and believe in nothing, so their ironic sneer is a harbinger of the downfall of Western civilization." |
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Is Cracked an Internet site? Yes.
Does their writeup of the inherent ridiculousness of the "hipster culture" function as a great beacon of hope in an otherwise daunting sea of douchebags? Yes. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Modern definition of HIPSTER:|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Is Cracked an Internet site? Yes.
Does their writeup of the inherent ridiculousness of the "hipster culture" function as a great beacon of hope in an otherwise daunting sea of douchebags? Yes. Definition of HIPSTER : a person who is unusually aware of and interested in new and unconventional patterns (as in jazz or fashion) Origin of HIPSTER First Known Use: 1940 |
As above, excepting that they also tend to be arrogant and belittling toward those who do not share their interests.
"Man, Fred is such a PANCAKING hipster! I asked him who The Antlers were, and he just smirked and drank his PANCAKING Starbuck coffee. What a PANCAKING PANCAKER."
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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I have the majority of the ************* on ignore and the forums seem much more positive and sensible now.|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
*patiently waits for Venture to obliterate half the Eastern seaboard*
/em popcorn |
Edit: Apparently ************ isn't picked up by the filter, manual redaction FTW.
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Love the head explosion. Been awhile since I saw a Scanners movie.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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For me personally, I'd like to see less focus on Praetoria, and more focus on the primal dimension. Thankfully it seems like the devs have heard this and will focus a bit more on other areas. Granted this does not mean they need to slow down on Incarnate content. Which they aren't, it just won't be as tied to that loser dimension as it once was.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
To try to give a constructive response to the OP:
The posters you seem to be focusing on all have a fairly common problem with the writing in general, from which flows most of their vitriol. Viridian alluded to it in his post when he mentioned trying to accommodate requests into the larger narrative the writing staff is trying to tell. These posters just don't like the overall story much. They don't like Praetoria at all, or what it represents, they don't like how the Incarnate lore has played out so far, and a lot of them never liked the old lore either, like Statesman's origin, how the Phalanx operates, how the Rogue Isles is written, etc. There might be a shining example of good writing in a mission or two, or maybe an entire arc, but you'll find that because they don't really like the Lore, there is little a new story can do to please them if it's flowing from the lore that they despise. If AE were utilized more, you'd probably never see these players playing regular content. The Writers have chosen a path, and for the most part they have to stick with it. This means these posters will probably never be happy with the writing again, even if a majority of the player base loves it. The writing won't ever resonate for them, and they'll find more wrong with it than right. That's life, and not necessarily a bad thing. There will always be players in any game that are gritting their teeth as they play, but the negatives they see don't keep them from playing. That fact speaks to how good the rest of the game is. |
The DD trial btw was a good departure from a mostly Prae focus.
I don't necessarily think it's a good thing that everything is tied to the Well, but it's not necessarily "OMG it's terrible, devs suck so bad."
And the text I bolded above is spot on.
When I find inconsistencies or things that my characters most definetly would NOT do (*leers at the first SSA arc) I just shrug, go into "ignore the story mode" and just continue to bash heads.
Nothing wrong with that /shrug.
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Isn't that just the definition of internet posters?
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
Modern definition of HIPSTER:
As above, excepting that they also tend to be arrogant and belittling toward those who do not share their interests. |
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i·ro·ny/ˈīrənē/|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Isn't that just the definition of internet posters?
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Noun:
The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
ver·bal i·ro·ny/vûrʹ-bəl ˈīrənē/
Noun: The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect. |
Fix'd
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
My problem with some of the critiques of the writing is that for the characters to do anything ELSE makes no sense. If anything, the "Villains-As-Heroes" thing is an example of them being actually Genre Savvy.
After all, if the City is destroyed, suddenly they've got nothing to do, or most likely, they die along with the City if the entire eastern seaboard goes up in smoke (as is most often the case) Therefore, it's in a villain's best interests to make sure the place stays alive and kicking.
It's been demonstrated time and again that villains either cannot organize against threats effectively because they're too busy in-fighting or manipulating each other to try and one-up their "competition". Mostly because Recluse actively encourages the behavior. It was hilarious on Virtue when there were some big RP plots about villains trying to take out the City, seemingly forgetting about things like Praetoria or Battalion literally breathing down our IC-necks.
Also, villains seem to forget how much Plot Armor they seem to have equipped. Recluse still being in power after Galaxy City boggles the mind (The lore states that the UN recognizes him as the leader of a sovereign nation; so why hasn't war been declared after he attempts to forcibly annex Galaxy City?) as well. Given that only Tower-Powered Recluse is a threat, a sizeable number of Incarnates who just decide they don't want him around anymore could effectively mow through the entirety of Arachnos like people munching popcorn, but it hasn't happened.
As it stands, villains have yet to lose anything or anyone noteworthy, besides Darrin Wade, who tried to have them killed. Meanwhile, heroes are forced to ignore the fact they're walking into ridiculously obvious traps and set-ups (aka MOST of SSA1) and have important people dropping like flies left and right because the writers forcibly demand they keep their hands on the Idiot Ball at ALL times.
Then there's gems like the fact people actually think Longbow is "organized terrorism" etc, etc. Completely ignoring the lore and trying to apply a real-life set of principles to a world where they don't apply. (The principles of a world without superpowers to one where superpowers are common as all hell)
And that's just covering the one issue. Praetoria is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I think people tend to overstate the issues in writing, or try to apply ideals where it's inappropriate.
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So shoehorning pop culture into easily definable laws is silly, because its more properly shoehorned into internet lists.
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Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Is Cracked an Internet site? Yes.
Does their writeup of the inherent ridiculousness of the "hipster culture" function as a great beacon of hope in an otherwise daunting sea of douchebags? Yes. |
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I've drawn the ire of Arcanaville! *shudders* |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So shoehorning pop culture into easily definable laws is silly, because its more properly shoehorned into internet lists.
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This article, in particular, wasn't a list, per se (as most of Cracked is, yes). It was a writeup of why hipsters suck, an opinion I hold in high esteem.
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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I take a week off the forums and miss this? Why does all the fun stuff take place when I'm not reading?
As far as I'm concerned, when the writing in this game is bad, the most productive thing to do is to express this in high enough numbers and with a loud enough volume that the writers not only hear us, but actually realise they have a problem on their hands. I'm one of the most vocal critics of the game's writing in pretty much everything post I18, and honestly? I've seen the game improve, and greatly. We complain about the content we have now, but it's easy to forget how much better the writers have become. Replaying I18-I20 content, say First Ward, now alongside newer content is an eye-opening experience, and it puts into perspective just how massive of an improvement we've seen.
David Nakayama had the right attitude. He'd see people raising hell and complaining about questions concerning art, and he'd respond. Not with excuses or justifications, but with an honest question: "OK, let's try and figure out what went wrong and how we can make it right in the future." I know being extreme is not a very polite way of expressing disappointment, but when a problem persists for years and seems to be forgotten, it's really the only recourse available. And you know what? It works. For as much as we yelled at the game's writing, it's better now. Incarnates are less stupid and Ascendants have pretty much saved the concept entirely, a good balance has been found between gameplay and cutscenes and the story as written now manages to be dramatic without being depressing. That's a win for everyone, as far as I'm concerned.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Criticism is useless if you don't offer a solution or alternative on how to improve the issue at hand. If you're going to tear something apart at least bring something to the table or your critique will just sound like an overgrown puppy tearing up the evening newspaper.