If you don't like the writing...


.Viridian.

 

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
While I generally agree, I am compelled to offer the counterexample of TNG season 1, which showed that a group of perfect people from a (supposedly) perfect society who all get along all the time and have no interpersonal drama at all, by Word of God, are about as exciting to watch as drying paint. Beige paint.

(It didn't help that they often came across as so smug and patronizing toward other "less enlightened" societies that one wanted to push their faces in.)
Having people act like friends would and sticking up for each other isn't the same as them being perfect... It isn't even related to being perfect, as a point of fact. Friendships can still be tested without breaking. Families can face adversity without falling apart. There's a reason for the old saying that "a friend in need is a friend indeed." This was one of the very first things I was taught when I first started learning English. And the fact of the matter is that the Freedom Phalanx are not friends in need. If anything, they act like "fair weather friends," to quote another idiom, because we're told they're so close... Except when it really matters and they really need each other, at which point they devolve into bickering ********. This does nothing to endear me to them, nor does it help convince me these people were ever friends at all.

As far as I'm concerned, a story can be made more interesting when it displays a strong bond between people, because this bond can be a source of strength in extraordinary situations. This kind of bond, when it feels real, can give depth to a situation that is otherwise nothing more than shallow action and 90s scowling. This, to me, is what makes characters feel real and not like plot devices whose angst serves to create false tension where none should have existed.

It occurs to me that I fixated on a negative example and neglected to give a positive one. To me, the relationship between Pia Marino, Wretch and Ghost Widow, despite involving three villains, is one of the most touching of them all. It's very powerful the way it's written, and it comes off feeling more real than most. Pia's pain is tangible, as is her lust for revenge, but when the chips are down and she has to choose between revenge or her brother... She chooses to save Paulo and forsake her revenge, because it was the brother she lost that drove her on this path to begin with. And Ghost Widow, for all of the evil that she has done, still lives caring for her friend in unlife as he cares for her.

Yes, it is a sad and tragic tale, but in a very real way, it is incredibly moving, as well. Here are two people, broken, battered and wronged, but who will always have each other, even if the rest of the world may burn down around them. Ghost Widow's feelings may be mystically preserved, but they were real to begin with, and the Wretch may be brain-damage, but he has demonstrated enough judgement to understand his position and choose his fate. These are two people whose bond is stronger than death itself, and who support each other, wounded as they may be.

For me, "Oh, Wretched Man" was the first time in this game when I realised that our writing can be powerful as well as intriguing, that it can be built on strong emotion as well as comic book cheese. Because it is not some kind of perfection that makes Pia, Wretch and Belladonna so compelling. It is precisely in the way that their broken minds wrestle with the horror of the situation and find solace in their bonds that I find so beautiful, and I really can't say I've seen this before or since. Indigo breaking character for just a minute to show sympathy and affection for Melvin Langley is a good contender, but it's just one errant moment out of many more conventional ones. Oh, Wretched Man is an entire story done like this, and to this day remains one of the best.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think there'll be more hot, salty tears of rage after I24
Yup. A lot of the storylines, at least from what I've played so far, either suck or I just can't seem to care about. They're just there.


 

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Originally Posted by Xzero45 View Post
Yup. A lot of the storylines, at least from what I've played so far, either suck or I just can't seem to care about. They're just there.
I'm worried about this, myself. I can say that recent storytelling has at least gotten me to stop hating it, but I'll still need more decent material before my faith is restored to any real degree.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Xzero45 View Post
Yup. A lot of the storylines, at least from what I've played so far, either suck or I just can't seem to care about. They're just there.
I loved them - lots of depth, plenty of twists, turns and call backs to older content and lore, especially the 1-20 Praetorian content, interesting characters and situations, some suitable closure and some new plot hooks, and some very cool cutscenes.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I'm worried about this, myself. I can say that recent storytelling has at least gotten me to stop hating it, but I'll still need more decent material before my faith is restored to any real degree.
Then don't just sit here weeping in General Discussion and passively waiting for the full horror of I24 to hit you - get on the beta server, play the arcs, and give feedback


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Oh, Wretched Man is an entire story done like this, and to this day remains one of the best.
As I said, I agree. I just had to play devil's advocate and note the possible pitfalls of going too far in the other direction.


My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

 

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While I generally agree, I am compelled to offer the counterexample of TNG season 1, which showed that a group of perfect people from a (supposedly) perfect society who all get along all the time and have no interpersonal drama at all, by Word of God, are about as exciting to watch as drying paint.
The real problem with the first 1.5 seasons on TNG was that every episode was an obvious remake of a TOS episode. (An old acquaintance who allegedly had connections said this was due to Executive Meddling.) There were no dynamics between the characters because the characters were being played by actors who were actually playing other characters. If that makes sense. Which it doesn't. I'll stop now.

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Then don't just sit here weeping in General Discussion and passively waiting for the full horror of I24 to hit you - get on the beta server, play the arcs, and give feedback
First off, thanks to an overheating CPU I am reduced to using my mom's desktop with Intel G41 graphics, meaning I can barely see what I'm doing and with a sucky mouse and keyboard can barely do it in the first place. Not the best environment for feedback. Second, it is way too late to expect any story changes of substance to be made. Finally, until the MA filter is fixed I'm Just Here For Godzilla anyway.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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[QUOTE=Venture;4337885]The real problem with the first 1.5 seasons on TNG was that every episode was an obvious remake of a TOS episode. (An old acquaintance who allegedly had connections said this was due to Executive Meddling.) There were no dynamics between the characters because the characters were being played by actors who were actually playing other characters. If that makes sense. Which it doesn't. I'll stop now.


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here's Agent X from Praetoria, Leo Knight from somewhere, I think Ms. Shock and a whole bunch of people that just seem thrown together, kind of like when American cartoons take a fighting game roster and try to split them into "good guys" and "bad guys" even if the game doesn't really make that distinction.
that's the point. They're a TF. With just the kind of mixed-together groups you'll find in any other TF.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
First off, thanks to an overheating CPU I am reduced to using my mom's desktop with Intel G41 graphics, meaning I can barely see what I'm doing and with a sucky mouse and keyboard can barely do it in the first place. Not the best environment for feedback. Second, it is way too late to expect any story changes of substance to be made. Finally, until the MA filter is fixed I'm Just Here For Godzilla anyway.
As always, you are a ray of sunshine in the desert.


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As always, you are a ray of sunshine in the desert.
And constant as the northern star.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't know how it is in the novels, but in SSA1, the various Phalanx members are complete jerks to each other, and this doesn't make sense to me.
In the first novel, the FP is made up of Statesman, his fiancee (Maiden Justice), Dark Watcher - who he's actually friends with, despite the kid being half his age (and I actively object to the way they... oh, never mind...), and a few others, and while they were all brought together by circumstance, it was all very much "hail, fellow well met!" companionable sort of thing, and you can see the whole pile of them moving toward friendship.

In the second novel, Statesman is over 80 and his wife is dying (then dead), so he's grieving and not really wanting to be bothered with this whole thing. Psyche is under mental attack through most of the novel, Manticore's used to being the lone wolf and is a bit of a jerk, but Posi and Synapse are best friends, and even if Synapse really kinda doesn't want to do the hero thing, he does it because it's right. By the end of the novel, the five of them have developed enough of a working relationship that even if it's not an all around friendship, it's going to be a close professional thing - and there's a good chance it'll be friends to some extent, even if Statesman stays slightly aloof due to the fact that he's sixty years older than the rest of them.

And then the comics does weird things to all of them.

The second book is oddly dated as 1986. Some of us think that it should have been placed about ten years later, but ... whatever. At any rate, if you go by that timeline, we're now twenty six years into things. They've worked and practically lived in each other's pockets for twenty six years. There's been a marriage. There's been depowering. There's been near deaths (and actual deaths). There's been wars. If they aren't friends by now, then that's really damn weird. So the behavior of the FP toward each other in the SSAs is...

Well, let's just say I hope the lot of them are mind-controlled by evil Penny, 'cause that might almost make more sense.


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Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero

 

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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
Eh...Polaris fluctuates a little. You are a constant bastion of mild annoyance at the writers.
We just call him Venture


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by Cende View Post
Well, let's just say I hope the lot of them are mind-controlled by evil Penny, 'cause that might almost make more sense.
Well... I guess the point is that Darrin Wade got under their skin so bad that the Freedom Phalanx is REELING! This is the excuse why they're acting like idiots. But that's kind of where the whole "friendship" thing ought to come in, as I expect them to band together, support each other and weather the storm. That would be the time for the Spock "I have been and always shall be your friend" line. That's why I'm kind of with you - the only way this could make sense is if they were mind-controlled, or otherwise written severely out of character.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Well... I guess the point is that Darrin Wade got under their skin so bad that the Freedom Phalanx is REELING! This is the excuse why they're acting like idiots. But that's kind of where the whole "friendship" thing ought to come in, as I expect them to band together, support each other and weather the storm. That would be the time for the Spock "I have been and always shall be your friend" line. That's why I'm kind of with you - the only way this could make sense is if they were mind-controlled, or otherwise written severely out of character.
For what it's worth, I've always seen the Phalanx as incompetent petty idiots, the SSAs just made it more obvious.



 

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Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
For what it's worth, I've always seen the Phalanx as incompetent petty idiots, the SSAs just made it more obvious.
Could you elaborate on why? They've never been depicted as this in any material I'm aware of before SSA1.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Could you elaborate on why? They've never been depicted as this in any material I'm aware of before SSA1.
Mostly from years of them handing out tasks to others and never seeing them do anything myself. Granted I think that was more of a technical limitation in the early days. Also, and I know it's unfair, but when the rikti invade and the phalanx/vindicators continue to stand in place(because that's what NPCs do) instead of helping. I think it comes down to the idea that they can SAY the Phalanx are the best all they want but if it all happens off screen I start to doubt it after a few years. When the SSA came out it wasn't so much of a "oh no, what are they doing to the phalanx?!" moment as it was a "yeah, that seems about right." moment.



 

Posted

Yeah, but you can say the same about every NPC that stays out in the open. Like you said, that's a gameplay limitation, similar to back in the day when Lady Grey was said to be a "hero" but had the stats of a lieutenant and was pathetic. It was hard to buy that she was ancient and very powerful when she had fewer hit points than my pets. But again, when these characters showed up - and the Phalanx showed up a LOT in various Grandville arcs - they were quite impressive. Positron, Synapse, BABs, these were quite potent. And Miss Liberty was downright scary. She's the one EB I've always had the most difficulty taking down for some reason.

I see what you mean, though. Which is exactly why this story arc was the time to give them actual characterisation and personality, and to demonstrate why they have that reputation. And instead, we got basically a character assassination of the Freedom Phalanx any anime would be proud of. It just feels that when the bad guys need to "win," it doesn't matter what the good guys do because the plot will bend over backwards to have them beaten anyway. It seems contrived and the Phalanx seem like completely different people.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

For some reason, pre IOs, Infernal was the only EB I ever had trouble with. I'm not sure what it was, but it seemed like no matter what character I was playing he was just out to get me. Whenever I see someone on global chat asking for help with Infernal I drop whatever I'm doing and go help just so I can take him down out of spite.

As far as it being about the limitations I agree. But that's one limitation that works better for villains than for heroes. Why would the Phalanx need my lowbie hero to go save the day? But it makes total sense that a high ranking villain would send weaker villains on tasks that they see as beneath them. While I don't like it when my villain is made someone else's flunkie, I can handle it when I'm a low enough since it means I haven't really made a name for myself yet. Although it would be nice to have the option of going back to your old contacts once you're higher level and beating them up or making them run errands for you.



 

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It gets downright schizoid when the game starts trying to have it both ways.

In SSA 2.2 we have Doc Harding (the archaeologist, I don't recall his actual name) say "Ooo, you work with the Freedom Phalanx? You must be Big Damn Hero! Of course I'll follow you out of this danger." and then we have Positron, in the exact same mission, saying "Gosh, $Character, I don't think we're up to this. I'm glad we have a Big Damn Hero like you around." Meanwhile, the heaviest lifting they've had to do during the entire chapter is to help me with Ghost Widow, which didn't take much of anything, really.

If the message is supposed to be that the public still thinks of the Phalanx as Big Damn Heroes but the Phalanx themselves know the truth that you are the Biggest, then the message needs some more work.


 

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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
In SSA 2.2 we have Doc Harding (the archaeologist, I don't recall his actual name) say "Ooo, you work with the Freedom Phalanx? You must be Big Damn Hero! Of course I'll follow you out of this danger." and then we have Positron, in the exact same mission, saying "Gosh, $Character, I don't think we're up to this. I'm glad we have a Big Damn Hero like you around." Meanwhile, the heaviest lifting they've had to do during the entire chapter is to help me with Ghost Widow, which didn't take much of anything, really.
Doctor/Professor James Harvan. The story can't quite decide what his title is. And this sounds like something Fusionette says in the next mission over, though I believe Harvan expresses a similar sentiment in his dialogue when he talks over Positron.

Speaking of which, Fusionette has a weird characterisation here. It seems like she can never really decide if she wants to be her stupid/goofy self or if she wants to be tortured.

*edit*
Poor choice of words there...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.