If you don't like the writing...


.Viridian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thessalia View Post
Shane Hensley (Captain Mako) also wrote Deadlands, and Sean Dornan-Fish (Manticore) worked on it too, I think. And either of them could be who Sam is thinking of. They were pretty influential in early CoH/V.
Sean Fish was the original "Story Guy". I can't say for certain how much lore he wrote but he was the first keeper and maintainer of it, which is why even after he left Cryptic to join NCSoft and was no longer involved in the game, he still occasionally came back to answer lore questions. He also wrote or reviewed all of the lore printed in the CCG cards, which was where all of the Vanguard characters made their first real appearance.


 

Posted

Yeah, I wish he were still around. Always liked his Canon Fodder thread.


I'm just a holy fool, oh baby it's so cruel


Thessalia, by Darkchildx2k

 

Posted

I know I've made a lot of rambling posts in this thread, but this one actually has a point. I think I've identified a major failing of contemporary storytelling in this game, and it comes down to climaxes <insert giggity here> and the misunderstanding of what makes them strong. So let's take a few moments and review: What makes for a good climax to a good story?

Well, if you watch many Summer Blockbusters, you would be forgiven to think that that's the time where the action is loudest, the explosions biggest, the people most numerous, the drama most violent and the stake the highest. And while that's not necessarily "wrong," it's actually missing the point of what a "climax" actually is, relying on the erroneous "ending with a bang" theory. Again, that too is not a bad idea, but that too misses the point of what a climax to a good story should represent. All of those are specific cases taken out of context from better movies where they represented only part of why the endings to those movies worked. So what IS it, then?

The climax of a good story is a moment of resolution, a moment where all remaining subplots are resolved, when all characters undergo their final act of growth, where all secrets are revealed and where all plots come together in order for whole story to be resolved. A climax is the payoff for the buildup that is the entire story, but you have to be conscious exactly what it is that you're building up and how you're going to have it pay off. "Lots of action and loud explosions" is not the one-stop-shop solution to ending every story, because no every story builds up violent action that needs to be capped by boiling over into an explosion. Some stories build up a mystery, and thus need to be solved by a revelation. Some stories build up intrigue and thus need to be solved by an act of cleverness. Some story build controversy and need to be solved by an act of clear morality.

What I'm saying is that a climax does not equal "explosions," and is in fact very dependent on the kind of story you're telling because what's in that climax directly spawns from what's in the story. What I'm saying is a climax doesn't necessarily have to be about "action," but should rather be tying of the loose ends from the actual story, done in the spirit of the story itself. That's why you can't afford to just scoop up all the characters and toss them at each other in the hopes that this will produce more excitement. All this does is make them irrelevant and mutually-interchangeable, which is pretty much the worst fate an otherwise decent character can suffer.

Imagine a story as a puzzle where ever character and plot point is a puzzle piece that only has one place where it could fit. As you tell your story, the plot should connect those pieces together one by one. Towards the middle-to-end, you should have most of the puzzle put together in several large pieces that still don't fit together very well. Your climax, then, should represent that one last piece which finally makes all the others click together. This is what gives you a solid story that can stand the test of time. This is what gives you a satisfying story that people will keep coming back to. This is what you need to do in order make a satisfying end.

The oldest of City of Heroes arcs actually do this in a rather very methodical way. Instead of having multiple plot threads all converge at the end, they have multiple plot threads all solved in sequences as the ending approaches. Take, for instance, World Wide Red. This pits the player against Malta plan of unprecedented size, comprised of three parts, this the story is roughly divided into three sections. First you deal with Kingodm Red, Moment and the China situation, when that's resolved you deal with Omnivore red and Project: Wildflower, and when THAT is resolved, Malta are pushed and you deal with Dreadnought Red and the Kronos Titan. When the Malta plan has essentially been thwarted, your climax is actually to capture Director 17, now outnumbered, trapped, failed and desperate. You have methodically stripped him of his men, materials, power and influence and it's time to tackle the man himself. The climax here isn't big on action or big on drama, but what it IS big on is closure. Stopping a plan as devious as World Wide Red is a great thing indeed, but you've stopped it step by step and failed to have an overall closure event. Director 17's capture is that event which ties all the plots back to the source AND - in storyline, at least - presents an escalation of the threat and leads to major in-story achievement.

While World Wide Red may not be great in terms of gameplay systems, it is a story well told if you stick to the storyline side of it. Now contrast this against, say, the ending of Night Ward. No real spoilers, but those who've run it will know what I mean. Three out of four story arcs in Night Ward deal with setting up this weird world, the internal politics and logistics and eventually set up an atmosphere of calm resignation as the souls of the dead have largely accepted their fate and are trying to settle into their new home of the dead. Yes, combat and action still exist, but they are created by the clash of the dynamic world of the living with the static world of the dead and represent the "settling-in" of Night Ward as a place that will continue to exist. This isn't a high-octane action story of shootouts exploding computers, it's almost a character study of what a living world of the dead would be.

That's why ending this zone's story on such a loud bang is so out of place. Night Ward is built on the strength of its factions and the strength of its characters, and both of those ARE very strong. There's some might good writing there. What Night Ward should have had as a climax was the conclusion of all the individual personal arcs that get brought up in the zone. What of Pendragon's honour? What of Carlyle's business? What of the Animus Arcana? What of the denizens of Night Ward? We touched on all of these, yet in turn abandoned them with no resolution. A good story would have put off those resolutions for towards the end and then resolved them in rapid succession around the time of the climax, but that's not what happened. Instead, the climax is just a giant clusterhug of a fight where everyone and their grandma shows up not out of any sense of closing open plot threads, but because whoever made that mission thought it would be cooler to have more people involved in the fight to make it bigger.

This is what I mean when I say that explosions and action is missing the point of having a climax. This is the time when you make everything the characters went through have meaning. This is the time when you put a decisive, satisfying end to their personal arcs. This is where you close down everything you left open (unless you're sequel-baiting, which Night Ward is not). A huge fight closes nothing, settles nothing. It's just popcorn-munching eye-candy with no real substance and no real story behind it, because the real substance and the real story lie abandoned on the side of the plot railroad as they apparently just fell out of the rail cars.

A climax is a resolution of plot threads created as the story builds up to the end. It doesn't have to be action-packed so long as it represents sufficient closure to the story it caps. If you're making a slow settled contemplative story - and Night Ward IS one of those - then you really don't need to end it with a bang. You could - and should - end it as you've told it: By bringing closure to factions and bringing peace to characters' internal struggles. And just killing the bad guy is neither.

I want to end on relevant quote from Max Payne: "The final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point." Max, I think, says it best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
TEXT
Mr. Tow, I like a lot of what you say but god help me, I wish it wasn't such a time commitment to read it.

EDIT: scrolled up, saw someone had beaten me to saying this. Sorry for harping on it.


In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMagpie View Post
Mr. Tow, I like a lot of what you say but god help me, I wish it wasn't such a time commitment to read it.

EDIT: scrolled up, saw someone had beaten me to saying this. Sorry for harping on it.
No worries, I know how it is. I tried to keep it as short as I could, but it didn't work. Sorry about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Never mind, too much potential snark.

Let's just say that I disagree that Sam's comments would have been improved by reducing their length.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
Never mind, too much potential snark.

Let's just say that I disagree that Sam's comments would have been improved by reducing their length.
I did not say that they needed to be shorter. When I am not too sleep-deprived to read them, I find Sam's posts are actually improved by his verbosity. He takes a lot of time to put in details and clarify his ideas, which makes it very easy to have a conversation with him despite the limitations of Fora.


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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I did not say that they needed to be shorter. When I am not too sleep-deprived to read them, I find Sam's posts are actually improved by his verbosity. He takes a lot of time to put in details and clarify his ideas, which makes it very easy to have a conversation with him despite the limitations of Fora.
I try to be as comprehensive as I can be because words don't always mean to another person what we think they should mean. This is never more true than when writing fiction (with the possible exception of legal documents), so what I try to get across is less the words themselves and more the "feeling" of it. A lot of times, and this is equally true for good AND bad writing, it doesn't really matter all that much WHAT story you tell as HOW you tell it, and that's not an easy subject to talk about. I'd actually like to get Nuclear Toast here to testify to the manner of crazy story minutia I tend to waste his time with occasionally. I was actually going to talk about what makes a good villain after our last talk, but decided against it. I still might, but as you can imagine, it's not a "simple" topic to discuss.

I honestly think we and the game can benefit from more discussions about writing, and all the tangents that come with it. Good ideas about storytelling tend to stick with people and help inform how future stories are told and parsed. I'm not sure if I can help with that in any way, but I'll do my best at the same time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I find Sam's posts are actually improved by his verbosity.
I would need a non-verbose Sam to compare to in order to judge that for myself, but I've never encountered one in the wild.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I would need a non-verbose Sam to compare to in order to judge that for myself, but I've never encountered one in the wild.
...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I would need a non-verbose Sam to compare to in order to judge that for myself, but I've never encountered one in the wild.
A wild Quiet_Samuel_Tow Appeared!
What will you do?
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|Quote /JRanger |
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|Snark >Be Surprised! |
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
...
I have to agree with Samuel here


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
I have to agree with Samuel here
Sorry, I didn't read past the second dot.


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Posted

Here's something I've given a lot of thought to that has to do with this game's writing, and no, this won't be non-verbose. I'll do my best, but no promises.

---

What makes a good villain? That's a dead-end question that has no answer because it's different for different people, but I think by tackling an easier question, I can look at part of the bigger picture, at least. Instead, let's ask this: Why is Sorceress Serene a BAD villain? And when I say a "bad" villain I don't mean evil. I mean that she's the kind of villain who can singlehandedly ruin a story, and she is EASILY the worst thing about all of First Ward AND Night Ward combined. I'll try to give as few spoilers as I can, but honestly... I really don't need anything beyond what's in her bio. Sorceress Serene is the alliteration duplicate of the Primal hero War Witch and shares much of her story, only in Praetoria, her "Ravenwing Cabal" was killed to the last woman by Diabolique, causing Serene to seek revenge, that eventually turns into cackling pointless villainy.

Right there, my question is answered. Why is Serene a bad villain? Because what you saw up there is literally the ONLY characterisation she's given - Serene wants revenge and is willing to go to any lengths to get it. That's it. That's the entirety of her character, and it's barely ankle-deep. Without any sort of characterisation, personality or depth, all we're left with in order to "endear" us to a villain is their modus operandi. What we have here is a paper cutout of a character whose only defining characteristic is a self-expression mannerism that's basically "scaring the little girl."

So what is Serene's "modus operandi?" Well... She whines a lot about boo hoo my cabal and rants a lot about revenge, all done in aggravating scenery-chewing outbursts, but at no point is she actually respectable as a villain. I'll talk about "respecting villains" later, but Serene's problem is that she's whiny, she's annoying and she's one-dimensional. Even her evil is one-dimensional, consisting pretty much of the same clichés as something like Dr. Evil or Hector Con Carne. It's destructive evil without a purpose, it's power without a point, it's a villain that is so focused on being a villain that she never finds time to be an actual character, and thus she brings nothing to the table to endear he to us.

Why is Serene a bad villain? Because she's insufferably annoying with nothing to counterbalance it. I know that's the point - she's the chaotic, needy, arrogant child to Primal War Witch's veritable sage, but I'm going to re-purpose a line from Yahtzee here: intentionally annoying is still annoying. She's Superboy Prime all over again. A villain can be annoying, as a villain tends to need character flaws of some kind, but a GOOD annoying villain has other character traits that help us look past the irritation. A whining, petty villain is not interesting, because those scenes are the COST of creating a specific characters, and they need to be offset by allure coming from somewhere else. But like the Talons of Vengeance themselves, Sorceress Serene has none. She is not a character, she is a construct. It's as if someone asked "What if the villain summoned the Talons of Vengeance to get revenge on Diabolique?" and they just rolled with it with nothing to give her personality beyond that. You can swap Sorceress Serene for ANY other woman from the Ravenwing Cabal and not a single moment of her story would change. THAT is what makes her a bad villain.

But how can we respect a villain? How can we afford to like a villain? Isn't the point to having a good villain so we have someone to boo? Yes. Yes it is. But that's why I like to see this as "face vs. heel" rather than "hero vs. villain." See, the thing is that professional wrestling got it wrong, in the sense that both the face and the heel are good wrestlers and good characters you want to see more of, you just want to see the face so you can cheer him and see the heel so you can boo him. But, at least ideally, neither character should make you want to switch the channel when they come on-screen. Wrestling shows are smart about this, because they don't WANT you to change the channel, or you might not come back. Video games seem to have skipped over this lesson, however, and they have no problem creating infuriatingly bad characters, fully knowing that you won't shut down the game just because Navi is stuck on endless "Hey! Listen!" repeat.

A good villain is not a villain that makes us want to speed past his scenes. A good villain is one that we WANT to see more about so we can boo him more. A good villain - a good heel - is one you intentionally tune into specifically to boo him, because booing the heel is as fun as cheering the face. A good villain is a character that we want to see lose, but whose scenes still ultimately make for an enjoyable experience. A good villain is one we want to lose, but who's still fun at the same time. And that is exactly what Serene is not. She is not someone I want to see more of. In fact, learning she showed up in Night Ward (spoilers, she shows up in Night Ward) was one of the major reasons I took so long to get through that zone - because I couldn't stomach more of that horrible character. Her scenes feel like needles into my eyes, and there is no payoff for this. None whatsoever.

But what brought this about? Well, about a week ago, I burdened Nuclear Toast with helping me salvage a villain of mine whom I'd found to be lacking. Long story short, his goal was to destroy all created things and rebuild them in his image, which just didn't cut it for me. It's evil, yes, but the person behind the evil was, ultimately, a whiny *******. "Oh, I don't like the world. People have free will. They won't do what I say." Whine! Yes, destroying the world is classic villainy, but the WHY of it is what sank me. NT's insight is what helped me find the very simple, very crucial and yet still very little difference that turned it around: Instead of destroying everything because he's unhappy with it, this villain was changed to want to destroy everything because he firmly believes he can do it better than the original creators of the universe did.

Now, to you, the above may not seem to matter. Who gives a toss why some guy's fanfiction Villain Sue wants to "destroy the world?" But the difference here actually IS meaningful, and it's the difference between destructive evil and creative evil. Destructive evil, especially when destruction is born out of spite or other character flaws, is whiny and irritating. It's the little kid taking a magnifying glass to an ant hill. Creative evil, on the other hand, is respectable, because this represents characters for whom evil is merely a tool, rather than the end goal. These are characters that, through their very ideas, become at least partially likeable. These are characters who aren't just complaining that "Everything was better on my earth!" These aren't the Firebrands and Icedrones who spend their time whining what other people are or aren't doing. No, these are characters facing problems head on and doing something about them. And whether we want to admit to it in relation to a villain or not, that kind of attitude is actually incredibly positive for most people.

The truth of the matter is that we want to sympathise with people who don't back down from problems, but rather face them and solve them. When heroes do it, we cheer them, because it's what makes a good hero. When villains do it, we boo them while at the same time kind of wish they won't be killed off for real so we can see more of them. When characters rise to a challenge and deal with a tough situation, that makes them appealing characters be they hero or villain, face or heel. Sometimes we cheer them for it, sometimes we boo them for it, but always, we respect them. Because no matter how much you may want to hate a villain, it's still difficult to resist being impressed when that villain does something truly impressive.

This, I think, is where Serene fails. She does nothing to rise to the occasion and face a tough problem creatively. Instead, she is all too happy to wallow in the pettiness of revenge, live in the past and make increasingly irrational decisions, all because she's angry and malicious and whiny. She's essentially I'll never give it up! Not to anyone! personified, and all of her performances are grating to sit through as a result. And without anything whatsoever to upset her irritating character, the end result is a villain that essentially ruins everything she's in. That's a large part of what sinks both First Ward and Night Ward in my view, because the bulk of those zones that DON'T involve Sere are actually kind of pretty good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
What went wrong, guys? You were doing so well right up until the transparently evil Black Queen started talking and... What WAS her deal, by the way? People told me I'd be given a reason, but the reason confuses me. She dies because death is the final key, but was she being controlled by Serene? What was this about being Pendragon's lover? Or was she an ally of Serene? Because I have it in my chat logs where the Black queen says "I -Serene- *omnonmon* Mmm! Delicious scenery!"so which way is it?
For what it's worth, even though I spent a dismaying amount of that segment faceplanted (and completed it only because it continued to progress even while I was down - and I was playing a brute), my interpretation of that particular bit was the Black Queen pulling off her rubber mask, as it were, and revealing that she was Really Serene All Along, mua ha ha.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
What makes a good villain? That's a dead-end question that has no answer because it's different for different people, but I think by tackling an easier question, I can look at part of the bigger picture, at least. Instead, let's ask this: Why is Sorceress Serene a BAD villain?
Setting Sorceress Serene aside for now, I think that while the details of the question are obviously very complex, at its heart I think the answer to the question "what makes a good villain" is pretty simple. Its a villain we want to see more of.

90% of the time, we want to see more of a villain because they are interesting. Sometimes there's something about them we can relate to, something that provdes depth to the character, something that makes them seem if not real then at least real enough to connect with in some way:



Sometimes, they seem to personify a particular kind of evil distilled into its purest form:



Sometimes, they are interesting in an intangibly compelling way:




But generally, all of these kinds of villains share one common trait. Either we think we know them, or we want to know them. Now, that doesn't mean actually knowing more about them is a good thing. Hannibal Lector is the classic example of a villain we *want* to know, but its not good for us *to* know. But until we knew more, we wanted to.

As you say, some villains appear irredeemably annoying. But nothing is really irredeemable, its just that it can seem that way because our first impression of them is a character we don't *want* to know any more about.

I don't have a recipe for making characters interesting. I don't have the necessary and sufficient properties of an interesting character. But I do know that you are far more likely to hit the mark when you start by creating a real person, with real motivations, a real personality, and a real background. I've said before that I think much of the villain content is bad because I believe the writers don't believe in it. They don't really believe in villainy and they don't really respect villainy, so much of villain content is either pedantically bland or cartoonishly psychopathic.

You can't write a villain as a real character if you don't really believe in the character. If you're thinking to yourself "what do other people think evil looks like" instead of "if I were evil, what would I do" you'll generally end up with a cardboard cutout of a villain.

We don't know anything about the Joker. But I bet Heath Ledger did. I'll bet Ledger found a way to create the Joker in his head, as a man that had something happen to him that caused him to create and then inhabit the Joker. What that thing was, we'll never know. But I don't think Ledger was playing a man with no past. That's not a real person. I think he was playing a man who has deliberately destroyed his own past. And that's a real person.


I said 90% of the time villains that capture our attention are these complex interesting characters. 10% of the time:



Don't aim for that. Unless the stars align perfectly and you have the ghost of Raul Julia helping you, you're probably going to miss, and miss badly:




On a personal note, I think all of the villains on my personal list of best villains of all time share one additional trait. With one relatively small change, they could have been the hero.

Imagine if Magneto was on our side, or Hannibal Lector? They don't have to be redeemable or redeemed villains. You just have to wonder what if.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
On a personal note, I think all of the villains on my personal list of best villains of all time share one additional trait. With one relatively small change, they could have been the hero.
I'd take this a step further and say that some of the best stories are good because with only a small twist you could reverse the antagonist and the protagonist and still have a great story.

Case in point - The film in my .sig, Casablanca. You could tell the identical story from start to finish, with two small changes. You downplay the Rick and Ilsa romance and in its place you follow the valiant Major Strasser as he plays cat and mouse with the evil insurgent Victor Laszlo. Strasser shoots Rick in the end, and voila! A well-earned victory for the Third Reich.

The story would work just as well with Rick and Laszlo as the villains and Strasser as the hero.

Ditto for a film like, say, Die Hard. With a slight re-write of Hans and his gang into Danny Ocean-style grifters who happen to choose to run their roguish con against their will on the same night that insane cop John Mclean starts tossing explosives down elevator shafts and blowing up half the building, and you end up with the same story with an entirely different take on who is good and who is bad.

If a story can stand up to inspection regardless of whose viewpoint is "good" and whose is "evil" then you've got yourself a good story and you've got yourself a strong antagonist and protagonist.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
90% of the time, we want to see more of a villain because they are interesting. Sometimes there's something about them we can relate to, something that provdes depth to the character, something that makes them seem if not real then at least real enough to connect with in some way:



Sometimes, they seem to personify a particular kind of evil distilled into its purest form:



Sometimes, they are interesting in an intangibly compelling way:




Fixed.


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Posted

If I may toot my own horn for a moment:
Dr. Forsythe is trying to lay the foundations for a transhumanist utopia, where uploaded immortal minds are free of sickness, poverty, war, etc. But to perfect the brain-uploading process, he's had to kill people. A lot of people. He regrets that part, but it really is all for the greater good.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
If I may toot my own horn for a moment:
Dr. Forsythe is trying to lay the foundations for a transhumanist utopia, where uploaded immortal minds are free of sickness, poverty, war, etc. But to perfect the brain-uploading process, he's had to kill people. A lot of people. He regrets that part, but it really is all for the greater good.
That is what we tropers call a Type III Anti-Villain.


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Posted

There's no such thing as an "anti-villain".


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
I'd take this a step further and say that some of the best stories are good because with only a small twist you could reverse the antagonist and the protagonist and still have a great story.
Agreed, these are my favorite kinds of stories, in movies, books, and games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
There's no such thing as an "anti-villain".
Seriously? You link to tvtropes like it's a bodily function but with this you think it's invalid?