If you don't like the writing...

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

You're kind of sweeping the problem under the rug by stating that it will always exist. Crime will always exist, but we don't stop trying to fight it, just to pull a random example out of a hat. You can never have complete consistency and so no-one should expect it, but that doesn't mean we should give up on trying to have a consistent story or a consistent tone. Even if it doesn't work all the time, it should still work at least some of the time.

The fact of the matter is a good story isn't good because every part in it is good. In fact, it isn't good even because most or half or even some of it is good. A good story is good because it makes us care about it enough that we're able to overlook the bad parts of it, and indeed accept them as part of what makes the story good. For instance, I HATED cave levels in old games, which means I pretty much hated the original Tomb Raider. I liked Tomb Raider 2, but hated the two Tibet levels initially. However, the game was so good that I ended up not minding Tibet so much, and eventually learned to appreciate the thematic I disliked as simply part of a good game, whether the part itself was good or bad.

This is why people like me can flip-flop about the entire game so easily, from really really liking it to wondering why I'm still subscribed. City of Heroes is not a game without its flaws, and the story is really on of the most flawed aspects of it. But the story is also made up of extraordinarily good ideas, even as part of newer content despite how much I've bashed it. Even if those ideas aren't exactly told very well, having them is still good enough for me to overlook the poor execution. The real problem with "consistency" arises when you create a new story which is not only bad, but actually ruins a story which was previously good. The Dr. Khan TF is a good example. It's a bad TF, it's one of the game's WORST stories by far, and it serves to utterly castrate any potential coolness Reichsman might have had when he was still just a concept. Before, when the 5th Column was still "gone," we had fun times imagining what it would be like if Reichsman woke up and took control of it. Seeing it in action ruined that plot, any potential future plots on the subject may have had and pretty much buried the 5th Column entirely since its one remaining named character isn't interesting.

Contrast this against the concept of Ascension as seen in Dark Astoria and explained by Papa Smurf. I HATE Prometheus both as a character and as a plot device, and I REALLY dislike the Well of the Furies as a concept, but Ascendants are such a powerful idea, such a strong story seed, that I'm really perfectly fine with the Well serving as the catalyst and Prometheus serving as the contact. Not only has the good idea that is Ascendants made me accept the bad ideas that were Prometheus and the Well, but it has made me actually see them in a positive light. As concepts, they're bad. As means to a much better end... They're actually pretty good. Not only that, but the concept of Ascendants also serve to humanize both of the others. The Well goes from an god-modding all-powerful entity that is the end-all be-all of power into just one source of power, thus putting its drive to empower and control into perspective. Prometheus goes from an always-right overpowered smug god into a very powerful being caught in a situation that's becoming bigger than he is. It's putting an arrogant person used to bossing people around in a situation where he's out of his depth, forcing him to balance between playing big dog and dealing with the reality of being in over his head. And I LOVE it!

Paragon Studios writers have historically had a tendency to write in a vacuum, considering only the context that's directly relevant to the story they're writing and rarely the way it impacts the broader world in general. I mean no disrespect when I say that that's tantamount to writing fanfiction, in the crucial aspect that fans don't control the fictional universe and their stories can't impact canon. Fans don't have to worry about continuity, and our writers are writing like fans by disregarding continuity and only focusing on the here and now. This is what tanked Reichsman and this is what's turned Praetoria into bipolar land. Is it a deep and complex latticework of interwoven grey moralities or a grotesque black-and-white goatee evil universe? It depends on which story you run, and that really ends up making neither angle work very well. In fact, at times I wonder if our writers even have the pedantic knowledge of lore some of our players enjoy and that they simply don't know they're trodding over established canon when they have the Malta Group try for "minimal involvement" in a situation best suited for a commando squad, just as an example.

Consistency can't be absolute, but it should still be a main objective.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

First Ward HURTS. Of course it does, it's designed to hurt.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

I firmly believe that anyone - ANYONE - who wants to write for City of Heroes needs at least two of the following three things:

1. An intimate and intricate knowledge of at least most of the canon that's in the actual game good enough to quote plot points off memory.

2. Access to someone who's infinitely familiar with game canon at least up to the present day. ParagonWiki can suffice here, but only if referenced extensively.

3. The presence of mine to accept corrections from others regardless of their knowledge of content, or at the very least to verify corrections with either other more knowledgeable people or a static resource, again like ParagonWiki.

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

Now fit that all in with the ability to create multiple challenging bug-free missions, just as challenging new NPCs, and do it all on both a deadline and a shoestring budget.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Everyone has deadlines, the writers have no responsibility to design NPCs, and their budget consists of Mountain Dew and number 2 pencils. What we pay them *is* the writing budget.

Dr. Aeon was hired based in part on his demonstration of strong writing with no budget, no resources, no access to the powers team, no access to the tech team, no access to map construction, and no access to the art and effects team. And he did most of his writing on a time scale of about one issue.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Dr. Aeon was hired based in part on his demonstration of strong writing with no budget, no resources, no access to the powers team, no access to the tech team, no access to map construction, and no access to the art and effects team. And he did most of his writing on a time scale of about one issue.

Originally Posted by Kirsten

They should, in my opinion, fix AE, and after they do that, take the best AE arcs they can find and occasionally turn one into an official arc. It wouldn't have to be a major one, or even figure into the larger story, but it would mean an interesting new arc from time to time.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Everyone has deadlines, the writers have no responsibility to design NPCs, and their budget consists of Mountain Dew and number 2 pencils. What we pay them *is* the writing budget.

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

Everyone has deadlines, sure. My point is that I'm not entirely sure that the writers really are separate from the mission designers, and that gets into my other point about the budget. I get the impression that at Paragon there's not a lot of people wearing a great many hats. Just look at the response every time we bring up all the known typos. Lore checking, spell checking, et al all get left by the wayside and there's not enough money to bring in additional staff that can help out there.

And its a whole 'nother can of worms to go from simple AE writing to SSAs and world design.

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

Everyone has deadlines, sure. My point is that I'm not entirely sure that the writers really are separate from the mission designers, and that gets into my other point about the budget. I get the impression that at Paragon there's not a lot of people wearing a great many hats. Just look at the response every time we bring up all the known typos. Lore checking, spell checking, et al all get left by the wayside and there's not enough money to bring in additional staff that can help out there.

And its a whole 'nother can of worms to go from simple AE writing to SSAs and world design.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

Bottom line is they need an editor. At least one. What I mean by "editor" is a person whose sole job, or at least primary job to where he can put everything else aside, is to read through all of the stories suggested BEFORE they go into production to catch any glaring continuity problems, and then once more read through all the text of the finished arc to take a pickaxe to the writing. Mark for spelling, word choice, redundancy, sentence structure, grammar and general narrative. I get that QA exists sort of for this, but QA seem to be concerned with showstopping bugs and give text errors a very low priority and "writing" no priority at all. What Paragon Studios need is someone who's willing to tell people their baby is ugly because a LOT of the worst excesses would have been avoided if someone other than the people directly making the story were involved BEFORE the story were finished and put on Beta.

Originally Posted by Kirsten

Then please, I suggest that you do one or more of the following:

(TL;DR: There is a time and place for complaints, and wherever you complain, please do so politely!)

*Calmly, and without vitriol, point out what your problem is: If you make a clear, concise case to the right person, it can make all the difference.

*Ignore it. It's just a game. MST3K Mantra, guys.

*Create your own award-winning MMO and write it better. (I say this entirely without sarcasm, and honestly mean it.)

Please, for the sake of other people who don't like wading through pages upon pages of angry, sarcastic, acidic forum arguments to try and find people who actually want to talk about the actual topic of the thread, please do not do the following.

*Call the writers incompetent: It's rude, unproductive, and annoying to those of us who actually like the game.

*Complain about the writing when it has little/nothing to do with the conversation at hand: It's perfectly valid to not like the writing, and also valid to voice those opinions, but only in certain contexts.

*Don't argue your grievances ad nauseum. It's the internet, and people aren't going to agree with you, but that's no reason to strangle a perfectly good discussion with a relatively minor disagreement.

So I ask, please, for the sake of everyone, to stop arguing and complaining about the writing. If you must, please do so at the appropriate threads, and not in the midst of unrelated discussions. I'm only asking this because I'm tired of arguments. You may not like the writing, and I can see where you're coming from. But I do not want to hear about it. Thank you, and goodbye.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat

people who are good at that job don't come cheap, which is why books cost money.

video games are always going to prioritize gameplay over text content.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

Honestly? I can believe it, but I'd say that at the very least someone who speaks English well will do just fine. Hell, I'd do it for free, but they'd never hire me

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

Honestly? I can believe it, but I'd say that at the very least someone who speaks English well will do just fine. Hell, I'd do it for free, but they'd never hire me

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

Everyone has deadlines, sure. My point is that I'm not entirely sure that the writers really are separate from the mission designers, and that gets into my other point about the budget. I get the impression that at Paragon there's not a lot of people wearing a great many hats. Just look at the response every time we bring up all the known typos. Lore checking, spell checking, et al all get left by the wayside and there's not enough money to bring in additional staff that can help out there.

And its a whole 'nother can of worms to go from simple AE writing to SSAs and world design.