Incarnates, Future Content, VIP v.s. Freemium, Battalion, Ambiguous Lore Justifications
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-17 10:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I have 4 fully T4 level 50's. One of my T4 level 50's, I have over 130 Emp Merits, 1000+ Astrals, 30+ Very Rares and tons of Threads.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
As a player base how many incarnates do we think the developers should expect us to have per account? I ask this because of some of the talk in the L54 Battalion thread. It seems that there are some people that feel that they have not had time to get their characters up to level 53 yet. And it would seem that there are even those that feel they should have time to get all of their level 50s to level 53, and they have servers full of 50s. And then there are those without many or any level 50s to begin with.
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I have about 15 50s I still play.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
As a player base how many incarnates do we think the developers should expect us to have per account? I ask this because of some of the talk in the L54 Battalion thread. It seems that there are some people that feel that they have not had time to get their characters up to level 53 yet. And it would seem that there are even those that feel they should have time to get all of their level 50s to level 53, and they have servers full of 50s. And then there are those without many or any level 50s to begin with.
So how do you foresee the future content being delivered? Invasion stile where they spawn X levels higher than you? In all zones? Across all levels? How inclusive should the content be? Let us start with an informal survey. Some definitions
What all of this boils down to is how much content is going to be made that only VIP's can use and then how many of those VIP's are going to play it? There are many on these forums that screamed bloody murder when they couldn't solo their way to full incarnates. And now some of those same people are still saying "More solo content! I don't want to farm the same story ark over and over." I can understand this. But I ask you, when do we stop adding solo incarnate content? When we have enough to make it a stand alone game? In comic book terms this is the big world shaking event. (That is right before the reboot*) This is when Superman, Batman, Ironman, Hulk, Lex Luthor all put on their game faces, and somebody makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the planet. Well our Incarnates are now playing those same rolls. And, to use a comic book term, there's only so much page space. Even if that page is a fold out poster we still can't fit all the Incarnates onto it. Not to even mention all the sub level 50 heroes. So we have to limit our cast somehow. My query to you is... How? * COH 2 |
I worked on each one in Incarnate trials until they had t3s in all that was available.
If they then had salvage to get t4 in something, I'd get it.
I think I have a total of about 6 or 7 t4 powers scattered here and there.
I have two characters who have Hybrid slotted now. It's a boring pain in the rump to do the same trial over and over. At least the other trials gave you a few alternates for ixp. Almost every team I've found doing the new trial is simply farming it. That's 5 times minimum I'd have to that one trial, per character. I don't think I have the patience for that at all. I'm going to limit hybrids to one of each at, tops.
Plan? I plan to run all 50s I get through the trials, but I do not think I'll take all characters all the way through it.
I have several 50s on other servers that may never get Incarnates - but mainly because I simply don't play on those servers that often.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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It's nto a question of reward/time. It's a question of focus. You can go 1-50 without ever teaming, if you so choose. Or, you can go most of the way on task/strike forces and raids with few if any repeats, for the most part. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Fundamentally is this any different from regular content? You've got story arcs that can be solo'd and Trials/TFs that need a team. The Trials/TFs offer better rewards/time than the story arcs.
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Your story is yours, the path you choose is yours.
And then you hit Incarnates, where in all honesty you *don't have a choice.* Yes, you have DA, at an insanely slow pace, with just that exact same content to repeat if you want to drive yourself to utter boredom as you try to iLevel up. Or you grind the same few trials over and over, where your contribution is pretty much lost in the crowd.
That's appropriate for *some* things, yes. For everything... not so much.
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| I don't really get why you feel that the DA arcs are unrepeatable. |
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| Sure the story isn't new but back when Reward Merits were new there were plenty of people repeating story arcs through Ouro in order to farm merits |
If you're concentrating on the rewards aspect, which your reply sounds like, you've pretty much missed the entire point of my reply.
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1. Close to 10. Mind/Bubbles, Mind/Cold, Mind/Fire, Ill/Storm, Kat/Regen, WP/EM Tanker, Nin/Nin Stalker, DP/Traps Corr, Widow VEAT and Kin/Sonic Defender. Might be 15-20 if I really checked.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Aphrase to refer to a character with one T4 in each available incarnate slot Alpha/Judgment/Lore/Destiny/Hybrid
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2.Nearly all my active roster is at least Tier 3.
3.All new alts are getting T3.
4.Old legacy toons like my Ill/Rad, Fire/Axe Tanker, Dark/Dark Defender, Emp/Psy Defender, Rad/Psy Defender...
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
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Yeah I think we come at it from different angles. For me it's not primarily about rewards (although they do matter) and it's not about really about story. It's all about blasting something in the face. What I'm blasting in the face, why I'm blasting them in the face and who I'm doing it with don't really matter. I tend to migrate towards blasting something which offers rewards I want since I do enjoy progressing but at the end of the day I just want something to blast. On my Incarnate Time/Elec Defender I'll often go to the RWZ and do the repeatable missions at x8. Not for any particular reward, I just enjoy electrocuting large numbers of Rikti.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If you're concentrating on the rewards aspect, which your reply sounds like, you've pretty much missed the entire point of my reply.
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This seems like a silly definition to me... since on every character but my main, I stop shooting to advance once I have a power to T3.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. Ummm... I think 5? Not entirely sure. Doubt I will go through and get them all Hybrid unless the iTrial releases slow down a lot, like pre-Magi speed. That way I can go through them at my leisure.
3. Zero. It takes me months and months to get from Level 1 to 50+3... and I don't really ever intend to take a character beyond 50 unless I like it.
4. Yes. Any 50 I am not totally in love with.
So, that means at this moment a VEAT, a Kheld, a Defender... and prolly a few others. Unless I get really bored, I don't intend to place others on the iTreadmill.
Well this thread has been very interesting so far!
Particularly in how many didn't like my definition of "Fully Incarnated". In my mind getting from T3 to T4 isn't that much work. But I like the UGT/Keys trials and I convert most of my Astrals and some of my Emperians for threads. The only reason I provided set definitions is because we all had different ones to begin with.
Also of intrest is that many that replied were those without many incarnates or did not like the incarnate system. As is so often the case with forums only those with a bone to pick and an ax to grind frequent them.
I my self have...
Full Incarnates: 4 (and two of those are working on makeing more T4's for all slots for testing/soloing various things.)
Incarnates: 2 (Not including the above) (One my Mercs/Traps I am waiting on the Devs to address the many issues with Mercs before I put more work into him which is a pity because I like the character)
Full incarnates to be: 8 planed.
Non incarnates: 5 Many of which are lowbes that I haven't put much work into in the first place.
So from this thread I get the feeling that a +1/2 level shift or a T3 requirement of some kind would be a reasonable, if not very popular, requirement to gate future content.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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So if someone doesn't have a lot of Incarnates, it's because they have an agenda and you can dismiss their opinion? Well, don't I feel silly for bothering to reply. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Also of intrest is that many that replied were those without many incarnates or did not like the incarnate system. As is so often the case with forums only those with a bone to pick and an ax to grind frequent them.
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| So from this thread I get the feeling that a +1/2 level shift or a T3 requirement of some kind would be a reasonable, if not very popular, requirement to gate future content. |
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others
How many characters have you fully incarnated?
By your standards? (ie: Across-the-board T4s in all slots) Only three, since I don't chase T4s specificly. Even though many more of my characters have more than enough salvage to have built the things, I often choose to keep their Hybrid and Lore at T3 no matter how many of the others are T4.
How many characters have you incarnated?
18 of my 28 level 50 characters are +3 and have *at least* T3s in all six of their Incarnate slots. Many have a few T4s.
Five more are +3 with at least all T3s in the pre-Hybrid slots, but don't (and likely WON'T-) have Hybrid unlocked any time soon. They're semi-active characters that I just didn't see a point in incarnating any farther.
Many of the characters in both the with-Hybrid and without- groups actually have multiple picks at the T3 or T4 level for various powers. (Having several Lores, Destinies, Alphas and Hybrids are all common for my crew-).
How many characters have you rolled with the intention of making them Full Incarnates?
I eventually plan to Incarnate all of my active characters. I have about two dozen sub-50s at this point, most of whom will end up Incarnates to some degree. I also have two 50s that I haven't started yet, since I haven't completed their final enhancement builds.
Do you have any characters that you, for whatever reason, are not going to make Incarnates?
Yes. I have three completely retired 50s that I have no plans to Incarnate. I don't play them, and don't see that situation changing any time soon... It's a far better use of my time to work on the ones I *do* play.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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That is not what I meant at all. I was simply pointing out that due to the fact that many that replied have a low amount of incarnates and the high number of them that posted their opinion should not be given an undue amount of credibility due to the fact that it is a minority that posts on the forums in the first place. |
Originally Posted by Finsplit
So if someone doesn't have a lot of Incarnates, it's because they have an agenda and you can dismiss their opinion? Well, don't I feel silly for bothering to reply.
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Originally Posted by Finsplit
It would be neither reasonable nor popular.
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Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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1) Before I23, ten. Currently, four.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2) More than 10. Generally to Rare Alpha, but that happens along the way as I finish their builds.
3) Ten.
4) No.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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So, in other words, this entire thread is meaningless? |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
That is not what I meant at all. I was simply pointing out that due to the fact that many that replied have a low amount of incarnates and the high number of them that posted their opinion should not be given an undue amount of credibility due to the fact that it is a minority that posts on the forums in the first place.
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Originally Posted by BViking
So, in other words, this entire thread is meaningless?
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Not at all. It tells me that even those with few incarnates most have at least one +3 character.
And many of those that don't haven't because they don't like the system and wouldn't want more content for it any way.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I fear that you are giving your data sample an undue amount of credibility.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Not at all. It tells me that even those with few incarnates most have at least one +3 character.
And many of those that don't haven't because they don't like the system and wouldn't want more content for it any way. |
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I do not believe this is an accurate assessment to make based on the responses. I don't think anyone really dislikes the incarnate SYSTEM (though there are people with a gripe here or there about specific incarnate abilities being too strong or too weak). Most complaints about the incarnate PROGRESSION stem from TRIALS. As in trials like mags like have no solo/small team alternative for advancing Hybrid and the disproportion between trials and solo/small team incarnate advancement pace. If there was more solo/small team incarnate content and its progression was a better pace than it currently is I think you'd see much less complaining.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
And many of those that don't haven't because they don't like the system and wouldn't want more content for it any way.
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We don't want the devs to stop making incarnate content. We do want more solo/small team incarnate content with a slightly better advancement pace and to not be arbitrarily locked out of content for an issue or two because we don't enjoy the trials and prefer not to engage in them.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Questions 1) & 2) of the survey are questions that the studio already knows the answer too. They have reporting mechanisms that can answer those questions and many more, and compile the answers across the entire game; not just a few respondents on the forum.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
That is not what I meant at all. I was simply pointing out that due to the fact that many that replied have a low amount of incarnates and the high number of them that posted their opinion should not be given an undue amount of credibility due to the fact that it is a minority that posts on the forums in the first place.
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Questions 3) & 4) are opinions and cannot be datamined, though they might possibly be guessed at based on the answers to 1) & 2). If those are interesting questions then giving weight to the respondents on the forum is the only way to come to a conclusion about the answers.
Statistically speaking, a small sample can, in fact, reflect a large truth. It all depends upon the question being asked, how concise it is, and how many different respondents there are.
What IS true is that we represent a subset of the players - those that are willing to post on forums. How closely that coincides with the general player base is going to depend on the information you're trying to gather.
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1. Just one.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. Two.
3. When I create them, I eventually intend for all of them to be fully incarnated. How many I get around to doing that with in practice is another topic.
4. Nope, not due to any particular restraint other than lack of time or interest in the given character.
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Since they are not working on CoH 2 now, if its going to happen its at least five years away.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I don't think either one of us can say one way or the other for sure if COH 2 is going to happen. But in my opinion it is more likely to happen now that is to not happen.
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THey're actually working on COH 4 right now, to be followed by 2.5, then possibly 6, but they'll find they have to put 6 out in half the time and so they'll rename it 3. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since they are not working on CoH 2 now, if its going to happen its at least five years away.
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The login screen will be Mender Silos holding his head and sobbing.
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I think you need to stop drinking the iTrial kool-aid. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Not at all. It tells me that even those with few incarnates most have at least one +3 character.
And many of those that don't haven't because they don't like the system and wouldn't want more content for it any way. |
(I mean Enriche!)
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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My main toon has t4 in multiple alphas, multiple destinies, multiple lores, multiple hybrid and t4 interface and judgment.
My other 50's have at least T3 in all slots except my scrapper and brute who do not have Hybrid yet. It's not that I do not like Hybrid, but I much rather prefer playing my Corrs/Defender/Troller.
So all of my toons are Incarnates and all my toons will continue to be Incarnates.
I have no plans to make a toon and not incarnate them; then again I have no plans for any new toons (except for my blaster I have planned post Issue 24). Bio Armor, Nature Affinity, and Rad Armor do not appeal to me.
If it were not for incarnate content I would have unsubbed by now. I was growing tired of the game right before Alpha was introduced and it (incarnates) has given me new desires to play my toons.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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1. By your definition, only one.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. 10
3. Zero.
4. Aside from characters that I no longer play at all? No.
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| In comic book terms this is the big world shaking event. (That is right before the reboot*) This is when Superman, Batman, Ironman, Hulk, Lex Luthor all put on their game faces, and somebody makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the planet. Well our Incarnates are now playing those same rolls. And, to use a comic book term, there's only so much page space. Even if that page is a fold out poster we still can't fit all the Incarnates onto it. Not to even mention all the sub level 50 heroes. So we have to limit our cast somehow. My query to you is... How? |
I don't know how many characters I incarnated. None got all the way to T4. One only has 1 T3 and the rest T2s even though he has every slot unlocked and has for some time. On that one I just gave up because the thought of spending any more time getting destroyed on trials only to get more Commons and Uncommons is depressing. That's the only character I've ever semi-retired simply because of bad gear rolls, something I didn't think was possible in CoX until trials came around.
All I can really say is that I don't really spend much time playing the trials. I'll be point blank here: when I think about the incarnate system, I really want to log off and play something else. The incarnate abilities and the way they are acquired remind of the kinds of things some players pay real life cash to acquire on the blackmarkets of action rpgs.
For me it's not so much about the trials themselves but about the strangehold they on advancement. As missions they are okay. As content that needs to be run over and over and over and over and over I really dislike them. So I just stopped.
I feel the same way about the "Summer Blockbuster" event FYI. I never did get the procs I needed. Rather than run those I just play an alt, or failing that, another game.
I wish the game would stop bribing us into content by putting a highly desired reward behind a very narrow band of content. It may get some players to play it, but it does the opposite to me. It just makes me wonder why I am wasting my time doing this when I could play something that is actually fun.
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After a month of days in DA and only getting T3 in three slots, the other two a massive 30% unlocked words comprehensible by mortals cannot describe my loathing of DA and even lesser gods would be blasted into oblivion by merely thinking them.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Are you therefore saying that the developers should not expect us to have any of our characters maxed out? Even if its just one T3 of each incarnate ability? In this case I am excluding IO's as the Devs have said that they will not be required for anything they have not, as far as I know said the same about the incarnate ability's.
So if they did make content which required them what would you do? |
I'd ignore them like I do everything after a T3 (thank you NotW) Alpha.
I don't really get why you feel that the DA arcs are unrepeatable. Sure the story isn't new but back when Reward Merits were new there were plenty of people repeating story arcs through Ouro in order to farm merits so it's not exactly unprecedented. While simultaneously other people were grinding ITF/STF/LGTF/LRSF in a team for merits.
Now that being said I would like to see more TF-style Incarnate content which need a 6-8 man team. Sort of fill in the gap between the DA arcs and the Trials.
EDIT: I'll also add that I agree that I think the devs did screw up somewhat with the release schedule for both the DA arcs and the incarnate slots. I think if they had a release schedule that looked like this it probably would have gone over better:
I20: Lambda, BAF, Judgement, Interface
I21: Dark Astoria, DD Trial
I22: Keyes, Underground, Destiny, Lore
I22.5: TPN, MoM
I23: Magi, Hybrid
Basically space the slots over a longer period and release the solo path closer to the group path. Still I give them credit and hope that they learn from their mistakes with the later slots.
EDIT2: It occurred to me I should also defend trials so here goes. To me power isn't about being able to defeat hordes of enemies it's about being able to defeat powerful enemies. In the case of the Incarnate Trials I need allies because my enemies are EXTREMELY powerful. The Incarnate powers are making me more powerful, it's just a situation where my enemies are so powerful that I need a team of allies who are similarly powered up to defeat them. So in general I like the idea of the trials, I think a situation so drastic that it requires a team of the absolute best to defeat makes sense. As long as my allies are a similar power level to me then my increased power IS making a difference. Now if my allies were level 10s being exemplared up I would question it but so long as I'm surrounded by level 50(+3)s I'm fine with it. I will admit a bit of annoyance as to the particular foes I'm fighting since for the most part I've already kicked their punk *** solo and I don't really care for the Puddle of Annoyance answer as to why they are now so much more powerful.
So overall the trials do make me feel more powerful, I just don't care for the opponents chosen. But I manage, Marauder isn't the Marauder I fought he's his more-powerful identical twin