Incarnates, Future Content, VIP v.s. Freemium, Battalion, Ambiguous Lore Justifications
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-17 10:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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CoH 2 already happened, it's what we're playing right now.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I don't think either one of us can say one way or the other for sure if COH 2 is going to happen. But in my opinion it is more likely to happen now that is to not happen.
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They just called it Freedom.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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1. 0|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. 1 with Alpha unlocked only, 1 with T3 Alpha, Judgement, Interface, 2 with T3 Alpha only, 2 with common Alpha.
3. 0
4. Most.
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it's a pretty safe assumption since he said he had it open.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
You assume he has the alpha slot open.
That's not automatically open, you need to do something to open it, and if never do, you never need to deal with incarnate content. |
Remember kids, reading is FUNdamental!
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Who says there should be any "fault?" Why are you trying to imply there should be some sort of blame, or that someone's - for lack of a better way of putting it - playing incorrectly if they don't slot that? Honestly, at the rate I get shards, yes, it can be a *long* time before I have enough to consider a tier1, much less anything giving a level shift... and of course those shards only apply toward Alpha, really (don't go into "conversion," as the rate and speed there is not worth considering.) |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Is that the fault of the system or the person willfully ignoring it then? There are only so many incentives the Devs can drop in our lap before it's a simple "I win" button. I'm fine with letting the outliers that have no interest sit and do nothing with their 50s.
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And when it comes to the Batallion, given it's an event that (unlike the Puddle of Annoyance and Praetoria) has been built up, quite literally, for years, it shouldn't be locked away to where it needs the incarnate system. Again, some content, sure. All, no. Impact and accessibility of the Rikti invasion (once RWZ was unlocked) writ large.
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Which appears to be what the player in question seemed to imply, so as far as I can tell, this subsection of discussion is concluded.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Is that the fault of the system or the person willfully ignoring it then? There are only so many incentives the Devs can drop in our lap before it's a simple "I win" button. I'm fine with letting the outliers that have no interest sit and do nothing with their 50s.
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Ahhh missed that the first time.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
it's a pretty safe assumption since he said he had it open.
Remember kids, reading is FUNdamental! |
Just noticed him talking about free players who didn't have access.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
1. How many characters have you fully incarnated? 0. Only T4 I have is on my main and thats an Alpha. I only did it for the badge. Everything else, the farthest I go is T3.
2. How many characters have you incarnated? 4
3. How many characters have you rolled with the intention of making them Full Incarnates? My main only
4. Do you have any characters that you, for whatever reason, are not going to make Incarnates? Yes.
Its very time consuming to make every character fully incarnated. I try to unlock Alpha slot and get to T3 on most characters that have hit 50 recently.
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I have barely 7 50s at the moment.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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- Two, my BS/SR scrapper and Ill/kin Troller
- Four, the above two and also a bots/traps MM and DB/Elec Brute.
- None with the express intention, if it happens then great.
- I'll probably get at least Alpha on most everyone eventually.
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
So I actually went through and checked...
May miss one here or there as I was swapping through, but it should be close enough.
According to your definitions and some extra:
Fully incarnated by your definition - zero.
T4 power in at least one slot - one
Highest level shift - +3 on two characters, +1 on three others
Intention of making full incarnates - One at the very least -- my Ill/rad who has pretty much been my main since a bit after launch.
Characters w Multiple power trees from any single slot - zero -- I try to plan out one specific power that fits the character. I don't do incarnate content enough to get enough materials for multiples.
Characters with just Alpha unlocked/slotted - one -- my ff/psi defender
Characters with Hybrid unlocked/slotted - two
Characters I intend to not touch the system with - zero -- Ramiel's arc is fun and easy enough to do for the unlock though my weak soloers use a mission complete for the hard rikti mission and I lower difficulty/pile up insps for Trapdoor.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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1. 0. I have 3 incarnates, none 'fully' incarnated. But that's because I don't see T4 as the end goal, just an extra icing to do something else while more stuff comes out. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. 3. Still working on getting my other alts to 50.
3. Full incarnates? None. Again, it's just incidental if I happen to get stuff to make T4s. But I do roll characters with the intention of getting them to 50 and unlocking slots and the like.
4. No, I think that's just silly. Incarnate stuff gives me stuff to do when I hit 50. The end game TFs are ok, but solo stuff was absolutely scarce once you finished up remaining story arcs (and even then, they just gave you merits and a chance at purple recipes).
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| What all of this boils down to is how much content is going to be made that only VIP's can use and then how many of those VIP's are going to play it? There are many on these forums that screamed bloody murder when they couldn't solo their way to full incarnates. And now some of those same people are still saying "More solo content! I don't want to farm the same story ark over and over." I can understand this. But I ask you, when do we stop adding solo incarnate content? When we have enough to make it a stand alone game? |
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In comic book terms this is the big world shaking event. (That is right before the reboot*) This is when Superman, Batman, Ironman, Hulk, Lex Luthor all put on their game faces, and somebody makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the planet. Well our Incarnates are now playing those same rolls. And, to use a comic book term, there's only so much page space. Even if that page is a fold out poster we still can't fit all the Incarnates onto it. Not to even mention all the sub level 50 heroes. So we have to limit our cast somehow. My query to you is... How? |
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HOLY SH****|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I have about 40 50's all at least T3 in all of the incarnate slots many all T4's. I will not take all of them to T4 as a goal, but I have found it might just happen because of the amount of trials I do.
There are a couple of defenders I might not take further after Hybrid, but that is because I will be replacing them with different 50's I have coming. |
i have three with T3's of my eight 50's.
i have four 'incarnated'
i mean... i'd like ALL of mine to make it to incarnate level... but most get lucky if they break lvl 30.
not intentionally, but like above... i'd be lucky to make it that far. i'm usually squishy and leveling is hard solo. i'm not all crazy about IO's and builds. math doenst interest me and while the real numbers are nice... i simply enjoy the fx and usually run around at +0x1.
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Alpha had it just right. You've unlocked it, let what you need drop during regular content. You're not penalized in Incarnate advancement because you want to join friends for an ITF, to help someone out with an arc, or to join a SG TF event. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
[/LIST] But I ask you, when do we stop adding solo incarnate content? When we have enough to make it a stand alone game?
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This lets the devs take more time to write Incarnate-specific solo content, and gives those that don't want to/can't sit around for the "We need 500 for this raid!" content a way to advance.
As far as "When do we stop?" They barely started. It's a fairly silly question to even put forward. Balance solo/small team and raids. That's what (aside from some outliers) has been asked for.
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That was in reference to the people that want to get all of their 50's to 50+3. Yes "You" the player are the star. However their is "You" the player on your Softcaped IOed L50+3 SS/Fire IFramgodsalot Brute and theirs "You" the player on your SOed L50 FF/Energy blast Idon'tattacklots Defender.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
I'm... not sure I really understand your point. 'Everyone' is the star but at the same time so are just 'you'. Your player character is always going to be 'the main' star, you're the Superman of the game now that Statesman has bowed out. I'm not quite sure what you mean by limiting the cast, since it's just 'you'. |
Is it realistic to expect every Character to be "Ready" to fight the Battalion on even ground? I think not I think we are going to have to start looking at picking some of out characters and leaving the rest in the dust. The question is how many of our characters should we expect to have the time to "trick out" in-between content releases?
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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/disagree. COH has been designed as being very alt-friendly. Players should not be penalized for taking advantage of that. Speaking for myself, that design decision has kept me subscribing to the game for the past seven years. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
That was in reference to the people that want to get all of their 50's to 50+3. Yes "You" the player are the star. However their is "You" the player on your Softcaped IOed L50+3 SS/Fire IFramgodsalot Brute and theirs "You" the player on your SOed L50 FF/Energy blast Idon'tattacklots Defender.
Is it realistic to expect every Character to be "Ready" to fight the Battalion on even ground? I think not I think we are going to have to start looking at picking some of out characters and leaving the rest in the dust. The question is how many of our characters should we expect to have the time to "trick out" in-between content releases? |
Those who want to "trick out" their characters already have an option for more challenge - namely, the multiple difficulty settings, and (in some instances) making gameplay choices - such as in Max's arc in DA - which make a task easier or harder.
- How many characters have you fully incarnated?
Ten. Just got Hybrid on my last who was fully incarnated before i23 launched last week, and had the ability ready to go.
- How many characters have you incarnated?
Eleven. The one that's not fully kitted out is my newest 50; I've only run a couple trials with her (my evening playtime is at a severe premium during the summer), and she's got the first five slots unlocked, each with a tier 2 ability (except Alpha, which has tier 3).
- How many characters have you rolled with the intention of making them Full Incarnates?
None, really. My main started the trials because there were badges involved. Then I discovered I really liked the trials, and it only took a couple weeks, on average, to fill out an Incarnate, so I quickly moved through my whole roster of 50s...
- Do you have any characters that you, for whatever reason, are not going to make Incarnates?
Intentionally? No. Realistically, I doubt I'll ever get all my characters to 50, particularly not the really low-level villains whom I'm mostly content to let languish.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
/disagree. COH has been designed as being very alt-friendly. Players should not be penalized for taking advantage of that. Speaking for myself, that design decision has kept me subscribing to the game for the past seven years.
Those who want to "trick out" their characters already have an option for more challenge - namely, the multiple difficulty settings, and (in some instances) making gameplay choices - such as in Max's arc in DA - which make a task easier or harder. |
Are you therefore saying that the developers should not expect us to have any of our characters maxed out? Even if its just one T3 of each incarnate ability? In this case I am excluding IO's as the Devs have said that they will not be required for anything they have not, as far as I know said the same about the incarnate ability's.
So if they did make content which required them what would you do?
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I.. what? Yeah again, I think you and I are just on two completely different levels of logic because I absolutely do not understand your point. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
That was in reference to the people that want to get all of their 50's to 50+3. Yes "You" the player are the star. However their is "You" the player on your Softcaped IOed L50+3 SS/Fire IFramgodsalot Brute and theirs "You" the player on your SOed L50 FF/Energy blast Idon'tattacklots Defender.
Is it realistic to expect every Character to be "Ready" to fight the Battalion on even ground? I think not I think we are going to have to start looking at picking some of out characters and leaving the rest in the dust. The question is how many of our characters should we expect to have the time to "trick out" in-between content releases? |
For one, Incarnate powers in general are a 'leveling' of the playing field because every AT has the ability to use Judgment, Destiny, and Lore. There are always going to be power imbalances between power sets, ATs, etc. But are you really suggesting the next 'threat' should be only challengable by those that are 'the most broken'? Don't think I could disagree more.
Just being a higher level doesn't mean you're going to have to only pull out 'the big guns'. If there's solo content then it's likely to be just like Dark Astoria and the Emperor's sword. They might do some things differently, like perhaps Battalion solo content will be gated by like.. I don't know, having Hybrid unlocked? Or Lore/Destiny like the Magi trial is. But it's going to be Incarnate content. Enemies will be somewhere in the 50+ range, very likely to be 54 or higher. And they'll have higher to hit and probably some hard hitting attacks. But you'll also have your destiny, your lore, your judgment, your hybrid, etc to fight back.
And keep in mind, even as the enemies get bigger, badder and scarier, so do we. We've still got 4 more slots to unlock, potentially more level shifts to go, and they can still add -more- to prior trees for even more variety.
So, yeah, I don't understand where you're coming from in the slightest. Unless the Devs have a sudden and prolonged attack of loss of total common sense, 'Battalion' content is -not- going to require you to just stick with your IO'd softcapped brute and ignore your SO'ed empathy 'fender or require all T4 abilities. I'm not really sure why you'd even think that. It's also kind of assuming that there's just going to be this sudden gap between current incarnate content and 'battalion' content where solo content is like 54+ minimum. Frankly, we don't know what they're going to do only that Battalion is 'the next step' in terms of upcoming plot arcs.
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No, I'm saying it shouldn't really be a prerequisite for an entire storyline like the Battallion. Parts of it, sure, just like you shouldn't be complaining your level 22 that just finished Sutter can't run a Mag trial. |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Are you therefore saying that the developers should not expect us to have any of our characters maxed out?
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What I find... let's say *interesting* is that the devs went from level-locking zones (hazard zones, Croatoa, RWZ) into opening them for everyone.... and have just started locking things again (Mag requiring Lore/Destiny unlocks.)
That said, there's a difference between requiring unlocks and requiring something to be "maxed out." Of COURSE they know some people have got to have the biggest numbers to wave around and feel good about themselves. But they give us something ELSE to challenge those people - difficulty settings. They should *not* require you to be T4 anything to simply run the content. Some people are going to access it at lower difficulty simply to see it at their own pace (as opposed to "run run rush rush gottakilleverythignandgettothenextmissionNAO!",) some people are going to run it without stuff slotted for a different sort of challenge. All of these can be accommodated.
If they did make said content locked behind requiring a T4? I'd be one (likely of many) arguing with the devs during its beta not to do it. And if it still made it live, i'd ignore it other than to join in discussion with others about how well it collects dust.
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1. One.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
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2. Seven, though most got one or two commons and then I gave up.
3. Zero. The key word here is "intention", though. I don't make characters with the endgame in mind, given that endgame is too bare-boned. I make characters to enjoy the main part of the game, and if I haven't gotten sick of 'em by 50 yet, I do some raids, too.
4. Only one that I specifically don't intend to, for in character reasons a this moment: a hardline Loyalist Villain. If a reasonable alternative path comes up, though, I might reconsider that one.
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| What all of this boils down to is how much content is going to be made that only VIP's can use and then how many of those VIP's are going to play it? There are many on these forums that screamed bloody murder when they couldn't solo their way to full incarnates. And now some of those same people are still saying "More solo content! I don't want to farm the same story ark over and over." I can understand this. But I ask you, when do we stop adding solo incarnate content? When we have enough to make it a stand alone game? |
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No not at all. I am not arguing for greater difficulty or harder content like we've seen in the past here. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
But are you really suggesting the next 'threat' should be only challengable by those that are 'the most broken'? Don't think I could disagree more.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Just being a higher level doesn't mean you're going to have to only pull out 'the big guns'. If there's solo content then it's likely to be just like Dark Astoria and the Emperor's sword. They might do some things differently, like perhaps Battalion solo content will be gated by like.. I don't know, having Hybrid unlocked? Or Lore/Destiny like the Magi trial is. But it's going to be Incarnate content. Enemies will be somewhere in the 50+ range, very likely to be 54 or higher. And they'll have higher to hit and probably some hard hitting attacks. But you'll also have your destiny, your lore, your judgment, your hybrid, etc to fight back.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
And keep in mind, even as the enemies get bigger, badder and scarier, so do we. We've still got 4 more slots to unlock, potentially more level shifts to go, and they can still add -more- to prior trees for even more variety.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
So, yeah, I don't understand where you're coming from in the slightest. Unless the Devs have a sudden and prolonged attack of loss of total common sense, 'Battalion' content is -not- going to require you to just stick with your IO'd softcapped brute and ignore your SO'ed empathy 'fender or require all T4 abilities. I'm not really sure why you'd even think that. It's also kind of assuming that there's just going to be this sudden gap between current incarnate content and 'battalion' content where solo content is like 54+ minimum. Frankly, we don't know what they're going to do only that Battalion is 'the next step' in terms of upcoming plot arcs.
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The objective is to make us the players feel challenged/threatened by a force. How can they do that without making it imposable to solo or requiring a disproportionate investment of time into every character we make?
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
What I find... let's say *interesting* is that the devs went from level-locking zones (hazard zones, Croatoa, RWZ) into opening them for everyone.... and have just started locking things again (Mag requiring Lore/Destiny unlocks.)
That said, there's a difference between requiring unlocks and requiring something to be "maxed out." Of COURSE they know some people have got to have the biggest numbers to wave around and feel good about themselves. But they give us something ELSE to challenge those people - difficulty settings. They should *not* require you to be T4 anything to simply run the content. Some people are going to access it at lower difficulty simply to see it at their own pace (as opposed to "run run rush rush gottakilleverythignandgettothenextmissionNAO!",) some people are going to run it without stuff slotted for a different sort of challenge. All of these can be accommodated. If they did make said content locked behind requiring a T4? I'd be one (likely of many) arguing with the devs during its beta not to do it. And if it still made it live, i'd ignore it other than to join in discussion with others about how well it collects dust. |
Yes this is what I was trying to say. How far down the rabbit hole of locked contet are we going to go on the incarnates? How many trials, how many zones, how many storylines? And on how many characters are we going to want to run them?
And as that level of locked content grows how will the VIP v.s. Freemium issue be handled? As it has been with the 1/2 and 1/2 content each issue? Or will we see one issue for the incarnate content to finish a storyline one issue and nothing but low level arks the next?
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I would say that we go as deep as we need to go until there is a valid solo and team path all the way to Omega. The whole point of the Incarnate system is that our characters ARE becoming more powerful. What's the point of that if the content doesn't become more difficult as well? I want to feel that my efforts in the Incarnate system are allowing my character to face content that he wasn't able to face before.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Yes this is what I was trying to say. How far down the rabbit hole of locked contet are we going to go on the incarnates? How many trials, how many zones, how many storylines? And on how many characters are we going to want to run them?
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See, here's the thing. Aside from DA - which isn't particularly replayable, to be honest - the only thing to do is "Get 12-600000000 of your friends together and grind the trials." |
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Yes this is what I was trying to say. How far down the rabbit hole of locked contet are we going to go on the incarnates? How many trials, how many zones, how many storylines? And on how many characters are we going to want to run them?
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Y'know what? ... let me quote Adeon, since part of what I'll say is related:
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I would say that we go as deep as we need to go until there is a valid solo and team path all the way to Omega. The whole point of the Incarnate system is that our characters ARE becoming more powerful. What's the point of that if the content doesn't become more difficult as well? I want to feel that my efforts in the Incarnate system are allowing my character to face content that he wasn't able to face before.
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So why are we getting saddled with content that says "You CANNOT do this alone, you need more than a team's worth of other people?" OK, sure, some threats might require that... but the whole feel of "You're powerful" is turned on its head. You fight from 1-50 with only SOME (task forces) things requiring you to team up. YOU are "the star," as it were.
Then you hit incarnates, and guess what? You're more powerful, but you're a wuss. you can't handle this alone. You need a league of some size to wipe your nose, you're so incompetent and underpowered. We're not sure how a Hellion with Brawl hasn't embarrassed you now.
That's *wrong.* That's almost insulting. And what made my jaw drop is having the devs basically say, after trial after trial after trial was released, "Oh, solo/small team content? We didn't know you'd want it. Why would you want that?" and getting DA months later.
I mean, I *get* wanting to add an "end game." Great. I even get more raid/trial size things - we don't have many of those, or didn't before incarnates. But this focus on nothing-but-trials? Then we finally get DA... and next up, a *whole new* trial, with a *whole new* type of iXP... and absolutely nothing to do solo/small team to gain it. Back to square one.
Yes, I want *my* character to face challenges. I want *my* character,or *my* character (and a small team) to undertake a special strike mission inot enemy territory... I don't want to be "Player #987598 in Trial # 87549876." If we're doing that, why the *hell* are we bothering with more power anyway?
The trials make me lose interest *quickly.* Which is why so few of my characters get very far in the system. Give me something where I'm getting stronger because *I* have to face this stuff on my own, and I'll have more characters running it... at my pace, when I have the time to.
How many characters have you fully incarnated?
How many characters have you incarnated?
How many characters have you rolled with the intention of making them Full Incarnates?
Do you have any characters that you, for whatever reason, are not going to make Incarnates?
2. Four. Same ones as in question #1. I think I have a few others with their Alpha and maybe an Interface or Judgement slotted, but none at this time that I'll be taking any higher.
3. None.
4. Yes.