Devs called I24 "Fix Everything" in Coffee Talk... Lets hope that doesn't include nerfs
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 13:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No I do not.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am glad to see Johnny finally acknowledging that aggro mechanics are indeed often featured in comics.
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Question: who does Spidey tank for?
Nobody. Tank and spank is not the norm in comics.
Additionally, his taunts aren't about aggro. That doesn't really exist in comics. His taunts are more like targeted debuffs,
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The citizens! Uhm, he is such a good tank, nobody ever notices his teammates! Yeah, that's it. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Question: who does Spidey tank for?
Nobody. |
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Additionally, his taunts aren't about aggro. That doesn't really exist in comics. His taunts are more like targeted debuffs
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Isn't he part of the Avenger's now? And the civilian thing has actually happened. "I'll get them so upset at me that they forget the hostages!"
Still here, even after all this time!
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Dug reels in a few more! The crowd goes wild!
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I am surprised no one has posted about how big of a nerf to Scrappers i24 is.
first they made brutes do more damage than scrappers then stalkers did more damage than scrappers now blasters will do more damage than scrappers the scrapper AT is basically useless now. And it is the AT that pretty much defines comics - wolverine, spiderman, superman, iron fist, bat man, flash, wonder woman, etc. if they do not fix scrappers in i24 I foresee massive numbers of people quitting in crit |
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Fair enough. I was in too big a hurry to make the zinger point.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
"Not exceptionally good damage" =/= "low damage"
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
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Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Spider-Man: Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker. He usually surprises his enemies with a sneak attack, and while he can avoid hits and on some occasions take them, he isn't that great at taking damage (A hit or two from Rhino, for example, would put spidey into a fleeing position). He generally uses stealth, tactics, and movement to outmaneuver and outwit his foes. Generally not something a tanker does.
Superman: SS/Inv Tank with no crashes, constant damage resistance cap, softcapped defenses, the Body Mastery pool for laser blasts, and perma-all-powers and triple-stacked rage. He's the superhero of superheroes. The Hulk: SS/Inv Brute with an Empath hidden in his purple pants. Yes. They can stretch to fit his giant form without ripping at the waistband, he can hide a terrified kidnapped empath in there. The Flash: Speedster AT. There really is no AT which appropriately encompasses what a Speedster like the Flash can do. He has ranged attacks in thrown objects, he has control effects through whirlwinds, he has melee attacks by running around at massive speeds and beating the crap out of someone at whatever speed he can run. He can punch a thousand times in a second and dodge a bullet when the barrel of the gun is pressed against his forehead. There is nothing in the game which encompasses all of these things in equal proportion. The closest we have is Dominators, but he doesn't have the same focus on control and they have no defense. Batman: Everything/Everything Everything, based on what the comic in question needs. He can be a scrapper or stalker with MA/ or StJ/ or Kat/ and /Nin /SR /Willpower or he can be a Street Justice/Devices character. Wonder Woman: Bondage/S&M Icon. Really, she's the second string Superman "Now with Boobs!" and without his level of power. I really wish DC would just let her go and bring up a better heroine in her place, but I guess after 7+ decades we're stuck with her as the "Iconic" female hero. Wolverine: Claws/Regen scrapper. He is the quintessential scrapper. Jean Grey: Mind/Psi Dom or Fire/Fire anything, depending on the comic Cyclops: Nrg/Martial Arts Blaster Ultimately, it's very difficult to quantify any of the heroes of Marvel or DC "Perfectly" into one of the ATs we have in City of Heroes. Why? Because the ATs are limited by class balance. The supers we all grew up with are not. Batman is, perhaps, the best example of this. Also: these above classifications are entirely my opinion, feel free to ignore them or laugh, your choice. But don't bother getting mad, 'cause that'll just mess up your day. -Rachel- |
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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LOLOLOL.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
He is a dodge tank. His primary M.O. is to jump around taunting his foes. He's not known for being exceptionally good offensively.
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So I guess single-handedly beating the snot out of the X-Men, including Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus and Storm at the same time doesn't count? (Secret Wars #3, if you want to see the proof).
Look, trying to place square pegs into round holes doesn't work very well. Rarely are you going to see a non-CoX character neatly fit into a CoX archetype or powerset, and there's nothing wrong with that. That being said, Spidey would most closely fit a Super-Strength/Super Reflexes Scrapper. Main attack is hand-to-hand with enhanced strength, main defense is, well, not being hit, high solo survivability, high DPS, tough but can be overwhelmed fairly quickly with sufficient firepower. Taunt is not a conflict here, as scrappers also have Taunts available in their powersets. He's not a tank. Luke Cage is a tank. Superman is a tank. Thor is a tank. Reed Richards is a tank. Spiderman is not. He wades in and puts his target down; he doesn't stand there and soak up oodles of damage.
K
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no one has commented on "people quitting in crit" which is the bit I was most happy with
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Originally Posted by Organica
Dug reels in a few more! The crowd goes wild!
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Spider-Man is hardly renowned for "putting targets down". When he has been adapted to team games that have defined roles, he is used as control more often, which as far as melee characters go in this game is closer to Tanker territory than Scrappers. Indeed, most Scrappers don't even take their taunts at all. Compare Spidey's mindset to a true Scrapper like Wolverine's. Which of those two is going to be blindly charging a supervillian and which will be the one concerned with bystanders? Spider-Man's mantra is "with great power comes great responsibility". Honestly, who is more responsible, Tankers or Scrappers?|
Originally Posted by Kurrent
Spiderman is not. He wades in and puts his target down; he doesn't stand there and soak up oodles of damage.
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Lastly, not all Tankers "soak" damage. You talk like only characters with invulnerability or resilience can be Tankers. I suggest you look up what 'dodge tank' means. With his Spider Sense and reflexes, Spider-Man is almost impossible to lay a hand on in a straight fight. His Super Reflexes are as good as they come, which means he is a Tanker.
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Considering that all Super Reflexes characters reach their power peak at 45% defense in-game, that argument falls flat since no further amount of defense is any stronger.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
His Super Reflexes are as good as they come, which means he is a Tanker.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Nah. Wolvie's a Brute through and through.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Compare Spidey's mindset to a true Scrapper like Wolverine's.
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Wolverine was the template for Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Nah. Wolvie's a Brute through and through.
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Sabertooth is a Brute though.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Spidey's as much a Tanker as Cyclops is a Brute.
Also, I have to laugh at some of the people that keep pointing out Superman and Thor, the two heaviest hitters and heroic powerhouses of their respective universes, as examples of Tankers in this thread. Because when it comes to threads in the Tanker forum about improving Tankers, those same people deny that Tankers are supposed to be powerhouses, deny that it was the intent of the AT to represent characters like that and insist on keeping Tankers low damage rodeo clowns. Hypocritical much?
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Superman is OP and broken, and until nerfed, a bad example for anything.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Also, I have to laugh at some of the people that keep pointing out Superman and Thor, the two heaviest hitters and heroic powerhouses of their respective universes, as examples of Tankers in this thread. Because when it comes to threads in the Tanker forum about improving Tankers, those same people deny that Tankers are supposed to be powerhouses, deny that it was the intent of the AT to represent characters like that and insist on keeping Tankers low damage rodeo clowns. Hypocritical much?
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Thor is a god,... so again maybe not a good example.
Besides I've never thought of him as anything but a scrapper... He's just too cantankerous and has too many scrapperlock tendancies.I'll actually grant you that Spidey has tank tendancies. At worst a scrapper that took taunt. But, yeah, arguably an SR/ tank. And fits the CoH mold pretty nicely in terms of it, too.
edit: sidenote, I'm with Geko: wolvie is a scrapper and sabre probably a brute.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Out of context that is a meaningless statement: Superman and Thor could be defenders and still punch harder than anything else in the Marvel Universe if they were high enough level above everyone else.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Also, I have to laugh at some of the people that keep pointing out Superman and Thor, the two heaviest hitters and heroic powerhouses of their respective universes, as examples of Tankers in this thread. Because when it comes to threads in the Tanker forum about improving Tankers, those same people deny that Tankers are supposed to be powerhouses, deny that it was the intent of the AT to represent characters like that and insist on keeping Tankers low damage rodeo clowns. Hypocritical much?
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You cannot judge a comic book character by how much damage they deal or how much damage they can take alone. You shift my Blaster +20 and I will outtank any tanker. You shift my Defender +20 and my brawl will outhit Brute KO Blow. That's why I keep saying that the only valid comparisons to CoH have to look at a comic book character's offense relative to their own defense. CoH doesn't design or define characters in terms of how hard they can hit or how much damage they can take. When you get down to it, it comes down to modifiers. Modifiers say how an archetype performs on a relative basis: their combat level determines their absolute performance and combat level is something we really can't determine more than very generally for comic book characters, if at all.
If Superman is a level 100 character, then his punch will hit the hardest whether he was a tanker, brute, stalker, or scrapper. Or controller, defender, or mastermind for that matter.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Also, I have to laugh at some of the people that keep pointing out Superman and Thor, the two heaviest hitters and heroic powerhouses of their respective universes, as examples of Tankers in this thread. Because when it comes to threads in the Tanker forum about improving Tankers, those same people deny that Tankers are supposed to be powerhouses, deny that it was the intent of the AT to represent characters like that and insist on keeping Tankers low damage rodeo clowns. Hypocritical much?
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Johnny, we've already been through a couple of times in other thread why damage and strength are not synonmous. How much strength is equal to an extremely high dose of radiation? How much strength is equal to an arrow aimed into an eyeball? How much strength is equal to stealing an enemy's soul? There aren't answers to these questions, because strength is not the same thing as damage.
In other words, Archery and Assault Rifle both exist in the same game because damage is completely abstract.
Also, Arcana summed up the level issue succintly. What you're asking for is for Tankers to beat everything, and while most of us have our disagreements with each other about other things, we also all mostly agree why that Tankers beating everything needs to not happen.
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But obviously they're not 20 levels above their teammates since they are on the same team as guys like Batman and Hawkeye who manage to keep up just fine and contribute. Also the level shift analogy falls apart because Superman hits harder than Batman regardless if he's punching a Giant Monster or not.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Out of context that is a meaningless statement: Superman and Thor could be defenders and still punch harder than anything else in the Marvel Universe if they were high enough level above everyone else.
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You say that the only thing that matters is what a character can take relative to what they can dish out. Characters with feeble offense and superior defense do not exist in comics for the most part. The few that do are gag characters like Mr. Immortal, Turtle and Emery Schaub. So why are we wasting an AT to represent joke characters when obviously, based on the replies in this thread and others, most people think Tankers are supposed to be heroic bricks, flying or otherwise? If Thor and Superman are Scrappers, why would the devs give Super Strength and Mace to Tankers and NOT Scrappers from day one? Why would they make their Supes signature NPC expy a Tanker?
Tankers are supposed to represent heroic comic bricks, as opposed to savage/villainous bricks that Brutes cover. You know it. I know it. Most people on this forum know it even if they wont admit it. And nothing you say can justify or excuse them being weak rodeo clowns instead of the powerhouses they were clearly intended to be and for failing to do justice to the heroes they evoke but fail to live up to.
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Fortunately, they also don't exist in CoH for the most part. Tankers don't deal exceptionally high damage, and that maybe has room to be somewhat higher, but it's far from "feeble". 2/3 of Scrapper damage is still a lot of damage.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You say that the only thing that matters is what a character can take relative to what they can dish out. Characters with feeble offense and superior defense do not exist in comics for the most part.
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The last time I said such a thing to you, you told me I must be tripping shrooms with a bucket on my head while sitting in a cave, on Mars. I look forward to the delusion you accuse me of this time around.
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So, Superman is tougher and stronger than Batman and Hawkeye (from Marvel comics) but is not higher level than they are because they are just as tough and strong as he is?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
But obviously they're not 20 levels above their teammates since they are on the same team as guys like Batman and Hawkeye who manage to keep up just fine and contribute.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You say that the only thing that matters is what a character can take relative to what they can dish out. Characters with feeble offense and superior defense do not exist in comics for the most part.
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Darkseid and Superman can hit each other for days, knocking each other through walls and planets. They can barely do enough damage to hurt one another. They are vastly tougher than their offense.
In fact characters that can knock each other around all day are very common in comics.
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Don't try to figure it out; it'll only give you migraines.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
So, Superman is tougher and stronger than Batman and Hawkeye (from Marvel comics) but is not higher level than they are because they are just as tough and strong as he is?
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Hypocritical Not really, I would say misinformed|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Also, I have to laugh at some of the people that keep pointing out Superman and Thor, the two heaviest hitters and heroic powerhouses of their respective universes, as examples of Tankers in this thread. Because when it comes to threads in the Tanker forum about improving Tankers, those same people deny that Tankers are supposed to be powerhouses, deny that it was the intent of the AT to represent characters like that and insist on keeping Tankers low damage rodeo clowns. Hypocritical much?
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In all reality, Thor is an Omega Slotted incarnate. Superman as the last of his kind (give or take) is a champion of the well much like Tyrant is/was/will haven be choose your tense there.
I still maintain that the best example of a tank is Ben Grimm, who usually distracts the monster of the week while Richards(!) invents some item to take it out permanently.
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Ben Grimm is a US Air Force boxing champion, can lift over 100 tons, has grappled professionally and has years of street fighting experience. The fact that he still pilots suggests that he has retained most of his agility and reflexes despite his rocky form. He is anything but a poor fighter with low damage.|
Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
The best example of a tank is Ben Grimm, who usually distracts the monster of the week while Richards(!) invents some item to take it out permanently.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.