Devs called I24 "Fix Everything" in Coffee Talk... Lets hope that doesn't include nerfs
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 13:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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IMX, there are very few enemies that a Scrapper can defeat but a Tanker can't. They exist, but they are vanishingly rare, composing a tiny fraction of AVs which are already a tiny fraction of all fights.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Tanker offense, as it is currently, is just plain inferior to Scrapper offense, regardless of what the enemy is and in any situation. In fact, one could argue in the game they got it backwards, as there are enemies that a Scrapper can defeat because they can overcome the regeneration that a Tanker can not.
Enemies that Scrappers/Brutes can't defeat only because they can't survive but a Tanker can survive and can defeat? Not so much. And saying that's OK because Scrappers and Brutes are allowed to have their cake and eat it to doesn't fly with me. That isn't fair to Tankers and that isn't balanced. |
Unless you're going to compare a scrapper built for AV-soloing to a Tanker built to not be conducive to that, which would be silly.
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If it takes that same mook being lit on fire several times before they are arrested, is that problematic? How about me electrocuting things several times before they stop hitting me? Or freezing them in ice having remarkably little effect on their organs' ability to function?|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Indeed? I have a widespread dissatisfaction with powers/power level in this game, though my dissatisfaction is more along general thematic lines rather than your professed specific literal dissatisfaction.
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Super Strength may not live up to its name, but then neither do a lot of other sets live up to realistic expectations of theirs.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Tanker offense, as it is currently, is just plain inferior to Scrapper offense, regardless of what the enemy is and in any situation. In fact, one could argue in the game they got it backwards, as there are enemies that a Scrapper can defeat because they can overcome the regeneration that a Tanker can not.
Enemies that Scrappers/Brutes can't defeat only because they can't survive but a Tanker can survive and can defeat? Not so much. And saying that's OK because Scrappers and Brutes are allowed to have their cake and eat it to doesn't fly with me. That isn't fair to Tankers and that isn't balanced. |
OF COURSE TANKER OFFENSE IS INFERIOR TO SCRAPPERS! That's the way it should be! Because Tankers ARE stronger than them defensively. And I have played Scrappers that needed to bring along purples or oranges to fight enemies because I couldn't like long enough to take down the bad guy before he did me in. Meanwhile, I've survived them no problem on my Tankers, but the Tanker may have needed to bring some reds to do more damage. How is that not balanced?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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A whole other issue, but if I had my druthers I'd cut the HP of most of the enemies in the game in half and double their damage output(or have more of them spawn, whichever makes more sense for the enemy in question).|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If it takes that same mook being lit on fire several times before they are arrested, is that problematic? How about me electrocuting things several times before they stop hitting me? Or freezing them in ice having remarkably little effect on their organs' ability to function?
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But that's more down to the combat in the game being slow and ponderous in general.
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I do not disagree. I was merely using Super Strength as a ready example. As mentioned, I have a widespread dissatisfaction with the powers/power level in this game.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If it takes that same mook being lit on fire several times before they are arrested, is that problematic? How about me electrocuting things several times before they stop hitting me? Or freezing them in ice having remarkably little effect on their organs' ability to function?
Super Strength may not live up to its name, but then neither do a lot of other sets live up to realistic expectations of theirs. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I always laugh when someone says the combat in this game is slow. Makes me wonder if they've ever played any other MMO. I can take out 16 enemies in a few seconds. In what world is that "slow and ponderous"?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Except when Scrappers don't die. Then as far as the Scrapper is concerned, his defenses are as good as they need to be.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
OF COURSE TANKER OFFENSE IS INFERIOR TO SCRAPPERS! That's the way it should be! Because Tankers ARE stronger than them defensively.
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| And I have played Scrappers that needed to bring along purples or oranges to fight enemies because I couldn't like long enough to take down the bad guy before he did me in. Meanwhile, I've survived them no problem on my Tankers, but the Tanker may have needed to bring some reds to do more damage. How is that not balanced? |
Scrappers get more from popping survival inspiration because the survival bar for the game just isn't set that high from where they are already, and well built they can be safely above it without inspirations. Comparatively, the Tanker maximum damage bar is set much lower and even at max, it's still nothing to write home about.
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Understood. Just irks me when people tend to have a particular set that they love, use this type of justification for it, but then don't apply it to every other set in the game that should, by fantasy-world-physics-justifications, be even WORSE for the enemies.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I do not disagree. I was merely using Super Strength as a ready example. As mentioned, I have a widespread dissatisfaction with the powers/power level in this game.
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"Oh, I just threw a skewer through your heart. You're really still shooting me and not falling over?"
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
unless it was posi who said it....i would take it with a grain of salt.
alas poor recluse we knew him well when once upon a actual day he said the new issue was being joked as " all your bases belong to us" then in a split second he was let go and posi said in an interview " i dont know where you got that from" garbage
so until posi gets his nose out of the donut box long enough to say its true..its not.
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My SD/SS and Elec/SS tanks have no issues mowing through mobs fairly quickly. Not nearly as quickly as a Brute counterpart, but they shouldn't.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I do not disagree. I was merely using Super Strength as a ready example. As mentioned, I have a widespread dissatisfaction with the powers/power level in this game.
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Please show me a Scrapper that has never died in this game. Please. I'll wait.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Except when Scrappers don't die. Then as far as the Scrapper is concerned, his defenses are as good as they need to be.
Because popping purples or or oranges situationally is a lot more viable a play style than keeping a steady stream of reds up to maintain a damage increase. And that's without considering Tankers' low damage caps. Four purples and/or four oranges on a Scrapper or Brute, he's very very unlikely to faceplant in 95% of the content in this game. Take a Tanker to the damage cap with reds, which doesn't take much in some cases, and his damage still isn't fantastic; my Brute that doesn't faceplant puts out more damage than my Tanker does hitting his damage cap. Scrappers get more from popping survival inspiration because the survival bar for the game just isn't set that high from where they are already, and well built they can be safely above it without inspirations. Comparatively, the Tanker maximum damage bar is set much lower and even at max, it's still nothing to write home about. |
My Tankers don't need to pop reds continuously to move through the game at a good pace, and can often turn up the difficulty earlier than my Scrappers because of their defenses being higher, so I can leverage their AoEs better. As such, they only need to use the reds situationally, just like the Scrapper needs to use purples situationally.
And again, what kinds of characters are you comparing here? SOs? Basic IOs? Heavily-IOd builds? Because I bet that if you took a Brute and a Tanker on SOs, the Tanker would definitely survive much longer than your Brute would.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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YEP because the game needs to be balanced around Sets and Inspirations, that doesn't alter the science behind the numbers at all! Nerf everyone because we can use outside items to buff ourselves!
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Except when Scrappers don't die. Then as far as the Scrapper is concerned, his defenses are as good as they need to be.
Because popping purples or or oranges situationally is a lot more viable a play style than keeping a steady stream of reds up to maintain a damage increase. And that's without considering Tankers' low damage caps. Four purples and/or four oranges on a Scrapper or Brute, he's very very unlikely to faceplant in 95% of the content in this game. Take a Tanker to the damage cap with reds, which doesn't take much in some cases, and his damage still isn't fantastic; my Brute that doesn't faceplant puts out more damage than my Tanker does hitting his damage cap. Scrappers get more from popping survival inspiration because the survival bar for the game just isn't set that high from where they are already, and well built they can be safely above it without inspirations. Comparatively, the Tanker maximum damage bar is set much lower and even at max, it's still nothing to write home about. . |
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In both competitor super MMOs, the enemies take less hits and attack animation times are much lower. This game is practically turn-based with some power sets. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I always laugh when someone says the combat in this game is slow. Makes me wonder if they've ever played any other MMO. I can take out 16 enemies in a few seconds. In what world is that "slow and ponderous"?
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The punch in Martial Arts and Jab in SS take 1.8 and 1.3 seconds, respectively. IRL, I can throw about three jabs in that time period. A 1.7 second haymaker or axe kick would be just laughable from a professional level fighter and super heroes have to be even better than that.
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And how are those games doing, again?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
In both competitor super MMOs, the enemies take less hits and attack animation times are much lower. This game is practically turn-based with some power sets.
The punch in Martial Arts and Jab in SS take 1.8 and 1.3 seconds, respectively. IRL, I can throw about three jabs in that time period. A 1.7 second haymaker or axe kick would be just laughable from a professional level fighter and super heroes have to be even better than that. . |
Edit -> Also, how many professional boxers can take down 6-10 enemies at once? How many can you? You have to weigh combat as a whole, not just individual powers. How many boxing matches are over in a matter of seconds?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Best. Post. Ever!|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
and this is the problem.
Johnny wants Brutes renamed tankers. He cannot stand that the only melee AT defined as having higher defense than offense has lower offense than the 3 melee AT's defined as having higher offense than defense. I understand wanting to be overpowered. I still cannot understand why Johnny does not play brutes when he claims they do everything that he wants his characters to do. I swear the fix to this is for the devs to code it so Johnny's UI creates a brute when he selects tanker and just hides this from him. |
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I do have to laugh every time I read comments like "rodeo clowns", "punch like little girls", and "mediocre damage"... they must not be playing the same tanks that I am, or are very poorly slotted. Mind you, it could also be from a very, very narrow perspective of what is considered "acceptable damage" to them. C'est la vie.
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So you attribute CoH's success to its slow and outdated combat? Or would you spin it as "purposeful and relaxed combat"?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And how are those games doing, again?
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| Also, how many professional boxers can take down 6-10 enemies at once? |
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IF you retained a functional toon when you ran out of money for a month and went FTP before subbing again then fine. As you don't, I have a couple of friends who simply don't bother with IOs. When subbed, they want the second build for exemping, and respecing every time they unsub doesn't appeal.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
They're intentionally not using something that would make them more effective. Yeah, they're nerfing themselves, and to say they're not is just being dishonest ( Or showing that you don't know what the term means ). It's like saying a petless MM isn't nerfing himself by not taking pet powers. Yeah, it's possible to play without them and one can even be decently effective...but the difference between having them and not having them is rather dramatic.
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And don't go through the whole IO licence thing, that conversation has been done to death, the absences are unplanned and points are rarely banked and ready, if they don't have the cash for a sub, they don't for the licence. Also you get screwed on the exchange rate for small transactions if dollars are not your home currency, so buying a few points is horrible and they can't afford a lot.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
It is funny to me how these forums "rediscover" the flaws of CoX's level-based design over and over and over...
Look, a "mook" should never be more than level 1-3, and so when your level 50 Tanker hits them with Superstrength, the conceptually appropriate thing should happen. But the game doesn't restrict thugs to the lowest of levels. No, instead you get Circle of Thorns Guardians at level 50 being able to one-shot a level 1 Hulk clone with a curved dagger. Utter nonsense. This occurs in CoX because the game design makes the ridiculous assumption that there should even be a such thing as a level 50 "minion" in the first place.
You can't have comic-book style results in a game system that does not simulate that type of world. CoX looks like a superhero universe, but does not behave very much like one.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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I don't recall which server is their home server but I would guess the Iron Eagles have a scrapper or two in their ranks.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Please show me a Scrapper that has never died in this game. Please. I'll wait.
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I've found most MMOs I've played to be torturously slow, in combat as well as advancement. This game is better than most in both regards, but a quick snail is still slow (the fastest being something like five thousandths of a mile per hour, as I recall).|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I always laugh when someone says the combat in this game is slow. Makes me wonder if they've ever played any other MMO. I can take out 16 enemies in a few seconds. In what world is that "slow and ponderous"?
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
My SD/SS and Elec/SS tanks have no issues mowing through mobs fairly quickly. Not nearly as quickly as a Brute counterpart, but they shouldn't.
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In a perfect world, with only regular enhancements, no outside buffs, no inspirations, no Aura damage, and no Rage - basically just Jab and three damage SOs - it shouldn't take more than two punches to KO most even level minions. I'd say the same of the Tier 1 attack in any of the attack sets for any AT that has one.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Poison Ivy is a Controller? You're quibbling over very small numerical differences between Tankers and Scrappers relative to comic book characters, but you think you can make the case that Poison Ivy is a City of Heroes controller?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Poison Ivy, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm.
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Be my guest.
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Now you're talking about the design structure of Super Strength. The set IS designed around having Rage going. You're going to be weaker without having it up. You're also using the weakest attack of the set, Jab, as "your example". If I recall correctly, Jab is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, tier one Melee AT attack (outside of rage). The rest of Super Strength's set makes up for that. I'll admit it doesn't make it easy during the lower levels.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I've found most MMOs I've played to be torturously slow, in combat as well as advancement. This game is better than most in both regards, but a quick snail is still slow (the fastest being something like five thousandths of a mile per hour, as I recall).
I imagine that you and I have different ideas of what "mowing" is. Suffice to say, I'd call what my WP/SS Tanker does to minions of +0 or -1 level to him to be "methodically chipping away at", or possibly "deliberately hand sawing" with Rage. It takes around six Jabs for him to KO a -1 minion sans Rage. In a perfect world, with only regular enhancements, no outside buffs, no inspirations, no Aura damage, and no Rage - basically just Jab and three damage SOs - it shouldn't take more than two punches to KO most even level minions. I'd say the same of the Tier 1 attack in any of the attack sets for any AT that has one. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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You think (as an example) 486.84 versus 784.5 (or 737) is a "very small" numerical difference?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're quibbling over very small numerical differences between Tankers and Scrappers relative to comic book characters,
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No wonder you flip when I've asked for 'very small' changes.
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Compared to trying to prove that Poison Ivy is a CoH controller its infinitesimal.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You think (as an example) 486.84 versus 784.5 (or 737) is a "very small" numerical difference?
No wonder you flip when I've asked for 'very small' changes. |
But I think I'm using much less dramatic license calling that difference small, than your characterization that 0.8 is trivial while 1.125 is awesome.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
if I use beheader power, I expect to chop their head off
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound