Devs called I24 "Fix Everything" in Coffee Talk... Lets hope that doesn't include nerfs

As are Tankers in COH.

Take your earlier Spidey example. Your own description pointed out his relatively 'low' damage, but as an SR/ he avoid hits, has crowd control capability, and taunts constantly. I concede completely that he arguably fits the CoH tank model with this description in mind (/SS or /StJ, I'd guess, and pool choices for some other elements if you want to get specific ). Regardless, there are key elements there - 'relatively low' damage because an equivalent StJ/SR scrapper will do higher damage, but less effective in the dodge/durability side and that is a fair game modeling of similarly power choices with a different focus/character. You also made a good point calling on fighting ability, which all characters have (they are supers afterall), but there is a fallacy in equating fighting ability to closely to damage. With game mechanics involved. All of the different powers factor in as elements for consideration beyond damage - accuracy, debuff, mez, etc.

Arcanaville and others have made the excellent observation that level (including incarnate definition) clearly matters here. Rejecting the level difference 'because they are on the same team' is another fallacy. It is not reasonable to assume that Doc Strange and the Hulk hanging out with the Gargoyle (classic Defenders reference) meant that Gargoyle was equal to the cosmic level foes that they may have faced together. And Batman sure isn't going to blow out a sun, but that doesn't stop him from working with Supes. There is a clear distinction in 'level' of power between the characters that has little to do with their supposed archetype - clearly they are sidekicking and exemplaring, so again the CoH modeling is sufficient.

What now?

As I said before, I compared Spidey to how Tankers are, not how they were intended to be or how they are supposed to be. It's clear they were supposed to represent heroic bricks. The power sets say so (since there was no Mace or SS for Scrappers from day one). The player base says so, even if some wont admit it, it's in the zeitgeist as evidenced by this: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/02...se-of-tankers/
not to mention all the Inv/SS with flight Tankers running around all the servers.
And the devs said so with their choices of signature NPCs: Both Back Alley Brawler and Statesman are Tankers, and the offesive prowess of both are well above medicore (and calling Tanker offense mediocre when they are dead last of all the melee ATs by a large degree is being generous on my part).

The devs started it. Look at the official description for Scrappers. They pretty much spell out that yes, as far as this game is concerned, damage=fighting ability=ability to defeat bad guys. Since the whole point of being a super heroes is to defeat bad guys, what does that say about Tankers being inept at it? Which is why I call them rodeo clowns and walking decoys, because they aren't good for anything else.

But Batman has blown out Superman's lights on several occasions, which would be an impossibility if he was 20 levels below him. Even old style Void Hunters couldn't do that to Khelds when they're gray.

Now, if you want to argue that Batman used debuffs and that he should really be an AT that is a melee debuffer, which IMO is the treatment Scrappers should have gotten, then I'd agree to that. But that doesn't change the fact that Tankers hit like little girls compared to all the other melee ATs and don't even have decent potential compared to Brutes or Scrappers when they should be powerhouses.

And to go back to my Spidey example, even though he was concerned with protecting others most the the time, he at least was allowed moments of greatness. Like lifting the massive machinery that was pinning him, or shutting down Stark in a 10 second "fight" or going sick house on a villains who threatened his loved ones. Much in the way with Supes and the 'World of Cardboard' speech, Spidey has the power under the hood when he needed it and got to flex it when he wasn't preoccupied with 'tanking'. CoH Tankers, on the other hand, can't 'cut loose' because they don't have anything under the hood, except perhaps a nesting chicken.


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I'll admit that perhaps I misunderstood your point. I love the tanker description for him though, and it isn't one I'd ever considered for Spidey previous to your mentioning it. Perfect fit, IMO.

OKAY, and bricks never means power damage dealer to me.

Using the inconic Dev examples is like citing Superman - a flawed premise. They are not bound by the limitations of players.


First, tankers aren't inept. They aren't anywhere close to inept. Weaker than scrappers... sure. There is little alternative or there wouldn't be the two classes. Second, those text descriptions are antiquated and relative to what? They are strong damage dealers compared to lots of their foes, or the average person. What is the context?


Bad comic writing is bad?


Citing ridiculous cases doesn't help the discussion. But, humoring things - blew out his lights how? with the kryptonite crutch? I'd say yes, as you mention debuff right after.

Anyone can pick up kryptonite, I'd hardly use that as a basis for defining an AT. BUT, I would support a melee support class. And I'd agree that there should have been such at the start, but that isn't the case so it doesn't much matter.

So he's strong? So what? So are many others.


And that is a fallacy. Heck, tanks are some of my best farmers when I need to gather some phat lootz.

Getting hung up on a couple words in throw away text description when tanks play and defeat things just fine just doesn't hold together as a cogent argument.

The fun thing, is that is just opinions and discussion points as the Devs have defined it as it is. Maybe it'll change some time. Maybe it won't. In the end, I believe your expectations for the specific AT just aren't realistic, and I am sorry you remain so unhappy about it.

"Global Defense Nerf" and "Procs Per Minute" I believe.

There's a difference between evoking and emulating. An actual MMO cannot emulate comic book characters generally. That's why there are no controllers in comic books, no defenders, and no blasters. There are scrappers, but even there its just the best analog, not a particularly good analog.

As to them being weak rodeo clowns, the difference between a rodeo clown and a superpowered puncher is about ten thousand times larger than the difference between scrappers and tankers. Relative to your assertions about tankers as you perceive them, scrapper and tanker damage is essentially identical.

Also, NPCs are not tankers, blasters, or scrappers. They are minions, Lts, bosses, elite bosses, archvillains, or monsters. There's no such thing as an NPC tanker. Whether we call Statesman a tanker, a scrapper or a brute, his damage would be identical, because he's an archvillain class NPC in actual fact.

As to the first paragraph, you're only interested in comparing comics to the game when it suits you, but you then hand wave the mechanics when it doesn't. You don't get to decide how far to take the comparison. If things like combat levels all fall apart, then you cannot compare CoH combat to comic book combat at all. You can't say comic book characters do the same damage to "giant monsters" unless you're willing to prove all really big enemies in comic books mechanically work like giant monsters here. "Giant Monster" is NOT a critter class: Giant Monster is a Monster class in which combat modifiers have been turned off. Monsters have a level, and they do level scale. How do you know the monsters in comic books aren't Monsters, and not Giant Monsters? The difference isn't size.

and this is the problem.

Johnny wants Brutes renamed tankers. He cannot stand that the only melee AT defined as having higher defense than offense has lower offense than the 3 melee AT's defined as having higher offense than defense.

I understand wanting to be overpowered.

I still cannot understand why Johnny does not play brutes when he claims they do everything that he wants his characters to do.

I swear the fix to this is for the devs to code it so Johnny's UI creates a brute when he selects tanker and just hides this from him.

I suggested this to Castle but he said it would take too much UI work.

For all the craziness dug usually posts, this has to be the most golden thing he's typed ever.

Poison Ivy, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm.


I disagree. Scrappers and Brutes both emulate Wolverine and the Hulk reasonably well. Much better than Tankers emulate just about anyone except Turtle or Butterball. Why do they deserve to and Tankers don't?


I'm not a fan of the way the GM code works either, but one argument at a time.


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Johnny Storm can take a hell of a lot more damage than a Blaster can. Sue Storm's power set would be more of a Stalker with Force Fields... and Poison Ivy? She has done things like ensnare an entire city, that is beyond the scope of any Controller I know.

And how is near immortality realized in this game, Johnny? That would be Wolvie. As far as the Hulk? I have yet to see a Brute launch anything into (literal) orbit in this game. When does that stuff happen?

Face it Johnny, NO character in comics is properly analogous to in-game ATs. It just isn't possible because in comics powers and power levels change to fit the needs of a story, in a game that simply can't happen... it would be unbalancing (hint hint).

Barring "divine intervention" of sorts, every player character in this game is effectively immortal. They will "live" as long as their universe.

And as long as those hospital porters stay active.

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

While true, that's not what I meant. That is an artifact of the way the game stores data server-side... nothing to do with an in-game concept.

Unfortunately, the post below yours hits a bit closer with the medi-porter.

What I was thinking was more of a zero recharge self-rez... or something like that, which doesn't exist... for good reason.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Actually, even in game that happens a lot. Sometimes I can easily solo Marauder; other times it takes me and 7 to 15 allies.

Sometimes I can stop a cosmic level threat like Rularuu-Wade solo. Other times I am not strong enough to defeat an aspect of Rularuu solo.

Yes, but only when he can remove the power differential. If they were at or near the same level, Batman should plausibly be able to hurt Superman to some degree without using Kryptonite or any such thing at all. But he can't; not even close. This is not at all isolated to Superman - comics are filled with characters of differing power levels, where some heroes (even on the same team) are wildly more powerful than other heroes. A Scrapper can defeat enemies more quickly than a Tanker, but Thor can take down enemies that most heroes - or even teams of heroes (including sometimes the Avengers) - can't defeat at all.

I see no reason to think comics have a level cap, nor that all comic book supers converge to a similar level range. I see lots of reasons to think that they don't do that.

I can't speak for Johnny, but routinely having to hit nameless mooks (in the general sense, not the specific minion) several times to KO them falls far short of what I expect from "Super Strength".

Tanker offense, as it is currently, is just plain inferior to Scrapper offense, regardless of what the enemy is and in any situation. In fact, one could argue in the game they got it backwards, as there are enemies that a Scrapper can defeat because they can overcome the regeneration that a Tanker can not.

Enemies that Scrappers/Brutes can't defeat only because they can't survive but a Tanker can survive and can defeat? Not so much. And saying that's OK because Scrappers and Brutes are allowed to have their cake and eat it to doesn't fly with me. That isn't fair to Tankers and that isn't balanced.


Well, we do. And that doesn't excuse Tankers hitting like little girls. If you're going to create an AT to evoke brick characters, you damn well better do them justice. If you don't care about superhero comics or respect their tropes and conventions, don't make a comicbook superhero MMO. Period.

And "they can't because [insert BS excuses here]" doesn't fly with me either because Scrappers and Brutes reasonably do their comic counterparts way more justice.


It applies to the specific name of minion too. Mooks are just guys in their undershirt with a revolver for crying out loud. I'd expect they should be a fine red mist.



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Actually The Thing is listed at more than 75 but no more than 100 tons, which means that The Hulk (a brute) is 100+ and Namor (a scrapper on land atleast) 90-100.

Also I want to note that the Marvel sense of scale when it comes to strength is LOLtastic in that the highest level is 100+ so that Iron Man in the Hulkbuster is in the same tier as Galactus.

never get the Beheader power, or Invincibility, or Death Shroud

if I use beheader power, I expect to chop their head off