Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 7/10/12
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-10 09:47 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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That seems fairly obvious to me. Here are the original blast sets (for Blasters and Defenders combined):|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
And my point remains that I don't understand why so many people have spent so long insisting so vehemently that their gaming experience somehow wasn't complete without this very specific, conceptually-narrow, and fairly-uncommon-in-the-genre (even Mousedroid's list includes Iceman as a "water control" character on page 1. Technically true, but still kinda reaching) powerset.
Italicized words are italicized for emphasis, by the way. And I only put one in this whole post. My question is not why we got the set. I understand there was a great deal of demand for it. My question is why it was in such high demand. |
Assault Rifle
Dark Blast
Electric Blast
Energy Blast
Fire Blast
Ice Blast
Psychic Blast
Radiation Blast
Added were:
Archery
Beam Rifle
Dual Pistols
Sonic Blast
There's four weapon sets: Archery, Assault Rifle, Dual Pistols, Beam Rifle.
Five project energy-like beams or bolts: Electric, Energy, Dark, Radiation, Beam Rifle
Two project obvious visible physical projectiles: Archery, Ice
Three project special projectiles: Fire, Psychic, Sonic
There are physical, energy, and psionic blasts. Flame, ice, arrows, sound waves. Solid beams, bolts, projectiles. What's missing? Fluid-based blasts, projectiles, or themes.
We have solid, plasma, and even air-based powers (gale, hurricane, tornado). No liquid. We have Fire, Air, and Earth based powers, no Water. Its not the only thing missing, but its an obvious thing missing. And I'll bet Water Control is not all that far behind.
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Edited with a couple more examples.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Okay, how about we take a look at how this set can be used (beyond juvenile humor):
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I seem to recall Zan turning into tidal waves as well as inanimate water/ice objects. Granted, he did it so infrequently, his powers were more of a running gag.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Didn't he always shape-shift into water or ice? He couldn't really do anything with those forms unless somebody else moved him.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePLXE8pLT5Q
Enjoy.
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Well I did say that I only gave it a few minutes thought. |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You forgot Slime Blast, which is a big one in the comic book universe. (Though an argument could be made that it's covered by combining your "Glue Blast" and "Poison Blast" example, since that's how it's most often used.)
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Didn't he always shape-shift into water or ice? He couldn't really do anything with those forms unless somebody else moved him.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Red Valkyrja mentioned to me on twitter that's she'll be re-rolling a sand-based character to utilize the set.
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Sorry, I need to reset my sarcasm meter.
At any rate, directed at Doctor Roswell, not you.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Speaking of concepts:
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Oooh, Ectoplasm blast!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We have solid, plasma, and even air-based powers (gale, hurricane, tornado). No liquid.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We have Fire, Air, and Earth based powers, no Water.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not the only thing missing, but its an obvious thing missing. And I'll bet Water Control is not all that far behind.
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In Airbender Kitara carried around an extra water skin for it. She had even used her sweat once. And there was the blood bender - she'd be water blast (Assualt)/ mind control.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Perhaps.
I assume it's because controlling existing water leaves you with "the Aquaman problem," where you have to either set the entire book in or around water all the time, constantly find excuses to set stories in or around the water, or just have the character be largely useless the vast majority of the time. Whereas having the character create water out of thin air removes those limitations, but leads to the question of "where is it all coming from," and for some reason we're more accepting of that with energy and pseudo-energy (cold/darkness) than with matter. Oh, you can create water from nothing? Why just water? So that leaves us with a lot of characters -- well, okay, not "a lot," but a few -- who "blast" water because they're made of it and it's a cool way to have them attack their enemies (they're really just "punching" with water), but not much else. And their main schtick tends to be how hard they are to harm/contain, being composed of liquid; the "water blast" is just tacked on. |
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Right, got those dates mixed up and forgot those came out after beam rifle and time manipulation.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
We got Dark Control, Dark Assault and Darkness Affinity included with VIP subscription in Issue 22--aka, March.
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Regarding the Wonder Twins... yeah, he typically actually turned into water, often ice. And if he was liquid, it usually included a bucket or something somehow. As to this updated version, I'm pretty sure a single example of a character largely regarded as a joke using a "water blast" one time falls back under my Thor/frog transformation argument -- "it happened once, I demand a powerset!"
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Going back to this for a second...|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
As for it not being well represented in the literature, it's in good company with empathy, energy aura, kinetics, and many other not terribly obvious sets.
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Let's assume, hypothetically, that when the game launched, Empathy and Kinetics were presented differently. Mechanically the same as what we got in reality, but what we think of as "Empathy" had fire-based graphics and was called "Thermal Radiation" (what we now know by that name didn't exist at the time), and what we call "Kinetics" was presented as "Luck Manipulation." Different graphics, different description, identical in-game effects.
Would players have spent the last eight years clamoring for "Empathy" and "Kinetics" sets?
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If you want to make "lack of support in the literature" a point of contention, I'm not sure how a hypothetical proposing two other rationales also lacking support in the literature bolsters your argument.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Regarding the Wonder Twins... yeah, he typically actually turned into water, often ice. And if he was liquid, it usually included a bucket or something somehow. As to this updated version, I'm pretty sure a single example of a character largely regarded as a joke using a "water blast" one time falls back under my Thor/frog transformation argument -- "it happened once, I demand a powerset!"
Going back to this for a second... Let's assume, hypothetically, that when the game launched, Empathy and Kinetics were presented differently. Mechanically the same as what we got in reality, but what we think of as "Empathy" had fire-based graphics and was called "Thermal Radiation" (what we now know by that name didn't exist at the time), and what we call "Kinetics" was presented as "Luck Manipulation." Different graphics, different description, identical in-game effects. Would players have spent the last eight years clamoring for "Empathy" and "Kinetics" sets? |
I'm getting some of the same vibe here I get when people resort to RP arguments in attacking/defending an in-game system. As long as the system functions well at its appointed task, the onus to "make it work" thematically/lore wise falls on the player.
Likewise, if a power set works well and is fun to play its prevalence or lack thereof in 'the literature' is irrelevant. It is now a part of the game universe, which in this context supersedes all other comic source material.
Questions of WHY people wanted it and whether or not they were right to do so become meaningless and uninteresting faced with the reality of the set.
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I have to be careful about those. Arbiter Hawk strongly considered taking my blaster bet and then delaying the blaster changes until I26. So I had to start dropping hints about the changes to force Production to lock in the schedule.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I thought you were avoiding making bets you were not 100% positive about.
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This is me, dealing with our dev team:
You really have to be thinking at least two moves in advance.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
You're pissing in everyone's Cheerios.
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You referred to them as being "in good company" with Water Blast due to a common lack of genre support.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
If you want to make "lack of support in the literature" a point of contention, I'm not sure how a hypothetical proposing two other rationales also lacking support in the literature bolsters your argument.
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I suggested that if the rest of Water Blast's supposed "company" were called something different, nobody would bat an eye or go on about how largely-absent-from-comics power themes like Empathy or Kinetics were "missing" from the game. But for whatever reason, when this largely-absent-from-comics power theme was "missing" from the game it was apparently a big deal, big enough for people to act indignant about it and complain about how long it took to get it instead of just appreciating that it happened at all. I'm positing that while they are largely the same (as you say), they're being treated differently for little reason.
We shouldn't be treating it like it's Invulnerability or Super Strength or Martial Arts or Force Field or some other genre staple, that they've just refused to give to us. It's a cool little extra. You love the dressing? Great, I do too. But the salad was also just fine without it.
There's another one for the list, by the way, everyone: Salad Dressing Blast. Different colors for different powers and one could be Italian, one could the thousand island, one could be bleu cheese....
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Questions of WHY people wanted it and whether or not they were right to do so become meaningless and uninteresting faced with the reality of the set.
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Water Blast adds something to the game. The up-until-today lack of Water Blast didn't leave a big, glaring, Water Blast-shaped hole in our power choices any more than the lack of Carp Melee does.
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Liquidator from Darkwing Duck. google it or look on Youtube if you dont know who it is. Too bad there is nothing in the game to make a costume to look like that. MIght lean a tad towards control instead of blast, but he chucked or sprayed water plenty of times to count. Boo on you if you cant see the comparisons from the villains of that series to powersets in this game.
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So, then, what *do* we compel our players to be?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We don't compel our players to be "mainstream."
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Disagreement is not trolling. I think I've made it pretty clear a couple of times that it's not my intent to stir up hostility; we're just having a discussion. And given how much disagreement there's been here, I'm actually pretty impressed with how civil we've all been able to keep things, a couple of very specific comments aside. For the most part we haven't even degenerated into "arguing" yet, never mind "trolling."|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
As I read this thread, two things come to mind. First, wow, you guys fed the troll- how much more can he take? how long can it go on?
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According to the Forum Rules and Guidelines, however, accusing someone of trolling is itself a form of trolling. Just, you know, for reference.
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Whatever it is, I don't think its working.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, then, what *do* we compel our players to be?
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Well, it became "a thing" because you kept coming back defending your strange logic.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
And somehow this became a "thing" today because of an offhand comment mentioning that while I like the set just fine, I don't understand why so many people have acted for so long as if they feel like the dev team was somehow obligated to put it into the game at all. The "it's about time" attitude for a powerset that's fairly niche in my opinion.
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Pretty much anything can become "a thing" on a forum, all it takes is someone with a high resistance to incoming data and a willingness to keep posting in the face of overwhelming refutation.
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| Water Blast adds something to the game. The up-until-today lack of Water Blast didn't leave a big, glaring, Water Blast-shaped hole in our power choices any more than the lack of Carp Melee does. |
It isn't real popular in comics- so what?
You don't see it being thematically necessary- so what?
Players wanted it, they asked for it, they got it.
The end.
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What "strange logic" is that? The part of my post that you quoted, or the part of my post that you quoted, but only if you ignore the part where I say "I don't understand why so many people have acted for so long as if they feel like the dev team was somehow obligated to put it into the game at all"?|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Well, it became "a thing" because you kept coming back defending your strange logic.
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EDIT: See, Eldagore, now it's devolving into arguing, and getting dangerously close to trolling. From both sides. Still not quite there, though.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
Shield using characters aren't exactly prevalent in Comics either, yet many people asked for years for a Shield powerset.
They are as much of a niche powerset as water blast characters (or any liquid type blast) in comics.
When Shied Defense was added to the game I'm rather sure I saw a few comments along the lines of those that complained about how long it took to get water blast.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
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Because they liked it and wanted it.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
What "strange logic" is that? The part of my post that you quoted, or the part of my post that you quoted, but only if you ignore the part where I say "I don't understand why so many people have acted for so long as if they feel like the dev team was somehow obligated to put it into the game at all"?
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I fear your ever-evolving "argument" was accurately pinned a few posts up.
Enjoy your complaints, I'm going to log in and check out Water Blast without a thought or care for the existential void it's sprouted in your philosophy of game design.
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My City Was Gone
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No one is treating Water Blast like a "genre staple" the devs refused to give to us. What I think you are failing to realize is that most people don't care whatsoever what you or anyone else thinks is a genre staple. City of Heroes is inspired by comic book superhero stories, but it is its own universe. Water powers might not be common in the Marvel or DC universe, but neither are steampunk robots. Paragon Studios decides what is and is not a genre staple to the City of Heroes universe, and that makes the question of genre staples completely irrelevant.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
You referred to them as being "in good company" with Water Blast due to a common lack of genre support.
I suggested that if the rest of Water Blast's supposed "company" were called something different, nobody would bat an eye or go on about how largely-absent-from-comics power themes like Empathy or Kinetics were "missing" from the game. But for whatever reason, when this largely-absent-from-comics power theme was "missing" from the game it was apparently a big deal, big enough for people to act indignant about it and complain about how long it took to get it instead of just appreciating that it happened at all. I'm positing that while they are largely the same (as you say), they're being treated differently for little reason. We shouldn't be treating it like it's Invulnerability or Super Strength or Martial Arts or Force Field or some other genre staple, that they've just refused to give to us. It's a cool little extra. You love the dressing? Great, I do too. But the salad was also just fine without it. There's another one for the list, by the way, everyone: Salad Dressing Blast. Different colors for different powers and one could be Italian, one could the thousand island, one could be bleu cheese.... And somehow this became a "thing" today because of an offhand comment mentioning that while I like the set just fine, I don't understand why so many people have acted for so long as if they feel like the dev team was somehow obligated to put it into the game at all. The "it's about time" attitude for a powerset that's fairly niche in my opinion. Water Blast adds something to the game. The up-until-today lack of Water Blast didn't leave a big, glaring, Water Blast-shaped hole in our power choices any more than the lack of Carp Melee does. |
No one datamines comic books for the relative percentage appearances of purple dresses or sashes or radiation buffs. At least, I doubt most players do. We take inspiration from other comic books, but we're governed by what makes sense for the City of Heroes universe.
A lot of people have been waiting a long time for a water or fluid themed powerset. Why they wanted it is a matter of preference, not a matter of logic. Whether Water Blast really is "overdue" in the literal sense, I don't think it should come as a surprise that the players who waited that long for one would think it was. I honestly don't see what the mystery is.
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Quote:
Ok quick reply.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
too vague? it specifies everything, its just a bundle of a bunch of temps:
"The ultimate kit for leveling a new character! Gain XP faster, fly at level 1, increase damage & survivability, and even rez yourself from defeat. The Boost Kit contains: XP Boosters (x6), Rocket PAck Travel Power (30 days), Self-Revive Power (x5), Offense Amplifier (+Dam, +To Hit, +Rech, 1 Hour) x2, Defense Amplifier (+Def, +Res, 1 Hour) x2, Survival Amplifier (+Max HP, +Recov, +Regen, 1 Hour) x2, and the Warwolf Whistle that summons a hulking Warwolf Boss to fight by your side (5 charges)." it should add all of those into your character items section (the fly pack is prolly all of your toons, but as it says it is the 30 day temp fly pack), the regular xp booster is only 25% boost i didnt want to have to say this, but you need to learn 2 read |
When I (not saying you or anyone else) clicked on the item "Booster Pack" it did NOT open. I could not see the expanded information. Thus I could not read it. Don't know if it not opening is a glitch or not; just saying it didn't happen. But thanks for being ever so kind and posting the needed informations. Others may have had the same problem as myself. Never know you might have accidently been helpful.
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Mind: Read!|
Originally Posted by Hit Streak
On Sale This Week at the Paragon Market!
Character Slots |
Or, Post in last week's market thread: Read!
Or, perhaps, Appropriately timed discount on slots coinciding with new power set: Applied!
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What Necrotech_Master was saying, and the part he quoted, was in the OP where it described the Booster pack. You didn't need to open the store interface to read it, it was right there in the Announcement.|
Originally Posted by GPBunny
Ok quick reply.
When I (not saying you or anyone else) clicked on the item "Booster Pack" it did NOT open. I could not see the expanded information. Thus I could not read it. Don't know if it not opening is a glitch or not; just saying it didn't happen. But thanks for being ever so kind and posting the needed informations. Others may have had the same problem as myself. Never know you might have accidently been helpful. |
You came into the thread and asked questions that were answered in the first post of the thread.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
I'm glad to see new sets added, but I refuse to buy anymore until such time as there's more equality in what gets developed. Adding more blast sets (or the upcoming buff and armor sets for that matter) when there's already so many in-game while 'back burnering' sets for control, assault, pet summoning and manipulation is not something I will support whether using 'free' points or ones I purchase.
Please buff Ice Control.
Speaking of concepts:
My /Traps is utilizing the blast as fast replicating single cell organisms contained, sustained and delivered by a nanotech based system.
My /Fire calls it the 'Soul Stream' (aka 'Liquid Soul'; coloring both primary and secondary completely black)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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