Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 7/10/12

And since we're playing a game, not organizing a Superhero exhibit for the Smithsonian, that's all the recommendation it needs.

All DC versions of "Aqua-whatever" should be grouped as one example. They're all related, anyway...but I'm a Marvel guy so I'm biased.



Other than that, Goat's exactly right. I'm looking at this set as another awesome elemental set that we, as a community, can express our own creativity of concept simply because there aren't that many water heroes/villains out there to mooch origins from.

That, and I really like sets with mechanics, and it's going to get me to play a Blaster for the first time in six years, so, that's good enough for me.

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Right.

But again, my issue is not with the set. It's with the attitude and implication that this conceptually-narrow and specific set, one not terribly well-represented in the source material the game emulates, is somehow "long overdue."

Dude, have you not played Smash Bros? They couldn't even give him 4 unique special attacks... other than Sing, he's got Pound, Rollout and Rest.

How do you expect the developers to make 9 "sing them to sleep" attack powers?



(And yes, I get that you were being facetious, but it was a bad example regardless.)

Anyway, how many villains in comic books blast slime all over everything? Color the water green or purple and bam, you've got all the source material you need to justify it.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

It looks like brand-new accounts (free or otherwise) actually get something very similar to (though not as comprehensive as) the Boost Kit free, the New Player Pack (30-day Jetpack, 1 Windfall, 1 XP Boost, 1 Revive, 5 Signature Summon, and the Knowledgeable), in place of just buying the Knowledgeable badge. (I don't know when it was added, but a new player I introduced to the game yesterday just got it)

So it's not so much Pay To Win, but Pay To Win Again.

To be fair, Aquaman had water-based powers as far back as the old Filmation cartoon in the 1960s (though that was a one-off), and his water-bearer Hand lasted for far more than a week (more than two years, from the start of his 2006 series until Final Crisis in 2008, compared to less than a year for Electric Superman); meanwhile, Mera (aka Mrs. Aquaman) has had water-based powers for as long as I can remember.

.. though I agree. It's not a common power in standard superhero fiction.

List of Superhero Characters With Water Control Powers

I think it's long overdue because it's been a request for a very long time. Sure there aren't many comic books with water blasting, but it still fills a thematic hole since we have a lot of the other elements covered already. I don't think people request new powersets because they want to make a clone of an existing superhero, they do it because they have an idea for a character and the powerset they want would fit it really well.

The same way pretty much all the "blast" powersets and most of the melee ones work: 5-7 of them can be the same basic idea, but with different numbers and activation animations. Nearly everything in Water Blast boils down to basically the same thing (hit them with water!), but it's a complete powerset, because they all behave slightly differently. The difference between Aqua Bolt and Hydro Blast is just numbers and what the character does with his arms -- the difference between Sleepy Song and Lullabye can be too.

(And yes, still being facetious. People seem to think I'm looking for a fight here, but I'm really not. I'm just making observations. No hostility or anything.)

Its long overdue because as you seem to be aware of, "so many people have spent so long insisting so vehemently that their gaming experience somehow wasn't complete without a water-blasting set" and its a concept that has not had an analog within the game until now.

As to things not specifically well represented in the comic book genre, what this game apes are superheroes (and supervillains) as a concept, not individual powers and abilities per se. There aren't really any masterminds as implemented in City of Heroes in the comic books. There aren't really Defenders as such, or Dominators. The aim of the game is to cover as much conceptual ground as possible, not concentrate as much attention as possible on the few most popular points in that conceptual ground.

That's also why our costume editor looks like Comic-con exploded at Mardi Gras. The game isn't trying to focus as much attention as possible on all the minute details of the most frequently represented spandex in comic books. Its trying to provide as much shotgun coverage of as much conceptual space as possible.

The attitude that we should judge game content based on how well represented that content is in the most popular mainstream comic books is actually one that has been discouraged for as long as the game has been in existence. We don't compel our players to be "mainstream."

Sonic Blast does that. Of course, for eight of the nine powers they instantly wake back up, but the one that's left is a doozy.

Thought this one was more...interesting. Wasn't aware that was a powerset. I DEMAND IT!

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Biased or not comic is as comic does

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It's long overdue because players have been howling about it FOR YEARS.
Literally!

I won't delve into their motivations, but their bloodcurdling cries have been echoing across these forums for almost as long as I've been posting.

And it's no more 'conceptually narrow' than any other blast set.
AR: uh I'VE GOT A GUN!
Fire: ARRRR BURN YE HEATHENS!
Ice: MY WATER'S FROZEN, SO IT'S OKAY!

etc etc.


Yeah it's nameed "water", but with customization it can be any generally liquid-ish thing you can imagine. From my casual perusal of various forum threads there are already blood blasters, slime blasters, mud blasters and, ah, other stuff blasters out there, all re-purposing 'water blast' to represent their powers.

What would be 'conceptually narrow' is insisting 'Water Blast' is and only can be water.

As for it not being well represented in the literature, it's in good company with empathy, energy aura, kinetics, and many other not terribly obvious sets.

And my point remains that I don't understand why so many people have spent so long insisting so vehemently that their gaming experience somehow wasn't complete without this very specific, conceptually-narrow, and fairly-uncommon-in-the-genre (even Mousedroid's list includes Iceman as a "water control" character on page 1. Technically true, but still kinda reaching) powerset.

Italicized words are italicized for emphasis, by the way. And I only put one in this whole post. My question is not why we got the set. I understand there was a great deal of demand for it. My question is why it was in such high demand.

Probably had something to do with the supposed transition of the 'original' water blast to what we know as energy blast.

Maybe its a closure thing.

Because of the limitless possibilities/renditions/>>insert whatever you like that fits the list here<< that you can do with a liquid based set. That and sooo many people RPing energy blast as water for YEARS they, like me saw potential in a set, thus it became a demand...

I understand where you're coming from...
Perhaps the better question is: Why are there so few comicbook characters with Water Powers?


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Perhaps.

I assume it's because controlling existing water leaves you with "the Aquaman problem," where you have to either set the entire book in or around water all the time, constantly find excuses to set stories in or around the water, or just have the character be largely useless the vast majority of the time.

Whereas having the character create water out of thin air removes those limitations, but leads to the question of "where is it all coming from," and for some reason we're more accepting of that with energy and pseudo-energy (cold/darkness) than with matter. Oh, you can create water from nothing? Why just water?

So that leaves us with a lot of characters -- well, okay, not "a lot," but a few -- who "blast" water because they're made of it and it's a cool way to have them attack their enemies (they're really just "punching" with water), but not much else. And their main schtick tends to be how hard they are to harm/contain, being composed of liquid; the "water blast" is just tacked on.

Pretty sure we answered that.

Because it's an element, and wasn't well-represented. I remember people using Energy Blast because the Devs had wanted Water Blast pre-beta, and didn't have the tech yet to make it flow and move properly, which is why normal, vanilla Energy Blast looks a little water-like, all churny and such.

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

I was gonna say something along these lines. "Just take Sonic Blast and keep 'singing' at them until they pass out from it."

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Okay, how about we take a look at how this set can be used (beyond juvenile humor):

• Water blast (obvious)
• Milk blast
• Glue blast (Captain Mucilage from the Tick )
• Soda blast (pick any number of them)
• Juice blast (again pick any type of juice)
• Poison blast (seems obvious)
• Blood blast (sick, but villains or vampires)
• Liquid Metal blast
• Paint Blast (have each blast a different color)

And that is with just a few minutes of thought.

Oh, and Zan had water powers in both the tv and comic book versions of the Superfriends in the 70s.

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I'd imagine it's a lot easier to collect and form moisture out of the surrounding air than, say, a chunk of iron... which is probably why clouds rain water instead of bullets.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

You forgot Slime Blast, which is a big one in the comic book universe. (Though an argument could be made that it's covered by combining your "Glue Blast" and "Poison Blast" example, since that's how it's most often used.)
Didn't he always shape-shift into water or ice? He couldn't really do anything with those forms unless somebody else moved him.

Although, now that you mention it, I am reminded of the Justice League Unlimited episode(s) where they reimagined some of the original Super Friends characters as a competitive hero organization (comprised of genetically engineered clones secretly owned by the US government). There were analogs of Zan and Jana there; she turned into a sea dragon, and he blasted water from his hands before turning into a tsunami and flooding the complex.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Red Valkyrja mentioned to me on twitter that's she'll be re-rolling a sand-based character to utilize the set.

It's seeming to me Water Blast is perhaps more thematically adaptable than some other sets....