The worst powersets in the game?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-29 21:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The odd thing with Ice Control is that it offers less control than it should do. If you look at the other Ice-themed sets you will find that they are among the most controlling in their categories - Ice Melee has Ice Patch, Freezing Touch and Frozen Aura; Ice Armour has the ultra-soft control in Chilling Embrace; Ice Blast has Freeze Ray and Bitter Freeze Ray; Ice Manipulation has Chilblain, Chilling Embrace, Ice Patch, Shiver, Freezing Touch and Frozen Aura; and finally, Cold Domination has Sleet.
The only other control Ice Control has that other ATs can't get in some way, including Ancillary pools, is Arctic Air. Everything else can get the knockdown, the sleep, the hold, the huge slow/recharge debuff and the immobilise.
From a damage perspective, Ice Control beats Earth Control simply because of animation speed and Jack Frost. However, it is still dismal when compared to other Control sets, such as Gravity, Illusion, Mind, Fire, Plant and even Dark. However, Ice sets don't tend to be the king of damage anyway - this is because they are supposedly more to do with control and debuff. Looking at the other low damage control sets, Earth Control and Electric Control, the difference in control and debuff should be quite apparent.
So, this brings me on to the debuff present in Control sets. Ice Control gets a lot of -Recharge and -Speed. The former is only useful after a mob has used up all their attacks, meaning they can still fire off their often deadly alpha strike. Ice Slick is supposed to get around this, but if you do not have a corner to cast it around then you will end up taking part of the alpha strike regardless. -Speed, on the other hand, only proves useful when you get into melee range to make use of Arctic Air. Indeed, Arctic Air almost floors their speed. Shiver is much the same, however it completely floors Recharge.
Then what? Two powers have done all the debuff that the set does. Once you're in melee range using Arctic Air then the only thing you can do is spam Block of Ice and reapply Ice Slick - unless you're using the immobilise powers, then the whole -Speed debuff has been rendered obsolete.
Compare the debuffs found in Ice Control to other Control sets, particularly the less damaging sets, and you will find that they are quite lacking:
Darkness Control: -To Hit
Earth Control: -Defence, -Speed, -To Hit
Electric Control: -End
Fire Control: -Perception, -To Hit, -Speed, overall more damage
Gravity Control: -Speed, Ally Intangible
Illusion Control: More damage
Mind Control: More control
Plant Control: More damage
So it seems that Ice Control is trading off damage and control for the large amounts of -Recharge and -Speed it can put out, specifically through Arctic Air and Shiver. Earth Control, which has more useful debuffs, does significantly more control, at the expense of a negligible decrease in damage. Electric Control does what Ice Control is currently trying to do - layering soft control - a lot better than Ice can.
What can be done? It's extremely unlikely that any extra control will be added, particularly enhanceable control, so it can either get the Gravity Control treatment - more damage and better usability - or it can get more varied debuffs. Those musings have already been done to death, however.
To me, it is unacceptable that a Control set can be so poor without some sort of trade-off for damage or debuff. And I like Ice Control.
Quote:
I "underestimate" 'em all the time, since when they join teams I am on, I groan inwardly. Especially when I am on melee. |
Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
Yeah.. you haven't seen my Peacebringer.
I personally believe the PB's to be one of the best AT when you know how to play it. 2 heals. 2 great melee 1 res toggle 3 good chaining blasts 1 good aoe 1 good pbaoe 1 good cone Inherit Flight Photon seekers are beast Yeah theres more. But, when it comes to pve, i will most likely out dps you. When it comes to pvp, I will most likely decimate you. Do not ever underestimate PB's. |
I'm honestly glad for you that you are enjoying yours. I think I would rather sit through an IRS audit than try to level one again. The highest I ever got was 24; at that point my patience was exhausted.
Plus I don't PvP, so I'm feeling pretty safe, thanks.
Quote:
This explains quite a bit, then. Khelds really pick up once they get all three forms, when you can jump into crab to dodge a mez or jump into squid to start blasting they're actually quite good. Same deal with Dominators, they benefit disproportionately from SO's when they can have enough slots to get accuracy, mez duration, and recharge into the same power. If you're obsessed enough to hit perma dom, then they're a blast, nothing like slinging around mag 6 controls with drastically reduced recharges (I think I can get up to mag 18 or mag 24 hold on a single target with my Plant/Psi without really pushing it).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Trouble is, that's a level 38, or at the very least a level 30-ish power, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I play a character I don't like until I start not liking it less. It's the same with me and Dominators - I know they can be amazing, but I'll never last until the point where that happens since I can't play a character I don't enjoy. Yes, it is a personal preference, but to me, a character isn't playable if that character isn't fun right away and isn't fun the whole way through. If I start having to skip levels or rush for levels, that's just something I'd rather skip altogether.
|
As for me, I always found the Kheldians to be nice in concept but clunky in practice. They have a ton of great powers, but you have to jump forms constantly to make good use of them, or else you ignore a ton of the AT's potential. But worst in the game? Far from it. They just have a higher barrier to entry because they practically require knowledge of macros and keybinds to be played effectively, and because those <@&%[#$}> quantum enemies spawn in illogical places without warning.
Worst set? For my limited experience, it has to be /FF for Masterminds. Not bad, but you basically have two buffs and a toggle, and then your pets run around and butcher everything. It's just absurdly boring.
Quote:
| Someone else: 3. Brute Primary - TW. TW is just too frigging slow, by the time you've wound up your attack, your target is usually dead from someone else. PLus with the slow speed, hard to get rage up. |
Quote:
| Organica: This just makes me laugh. |
I am an extremely hard taskmaster [or taskmistress....?], and if I am not feeling the love for a set by no later than level 24, that toon is GONE. I do not PL most of my toons, so I'm out there actually evaluating the set on its merits pre-level 50 IOs. And if it is not good, it is GONE. Because leveling up solo is too much time invested in a character that does not interest me.
Now I am not saying you PL your toons, or that you only evaluate at level 50. Maybe you are more patient than me. But if I don't see potential, EARLY, I am really unforgiving. Just ask anything I ever rolled /sonic.
Quote:
The problem here is, because of the way mobs' attacks work, sapping them does very little to make up for other sacrifices made to get that sap effect.
|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
That is not to say that there are not bad sets, but the commonly mentioned ones are typically ones where the person just does not like what the set does. If you don't sap, electric blast is terrible. If you do sap it can be great.
|
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Quote:
What, no Tyger42? That guy's a total jerk... >.>
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Venture and Butane don't make that list? I'd probably add on FloatingFatman too...and Leo_G can be annoying at times...And Arcana is condescendingly obnoxious more than often...and Samuel_Tow is novel-long-post obnoxious...could probably throw GuyPerfect in there too...I may need to coordinate a list here.
|
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Quote:
That would tend to make a slight difference............
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Uh....wait, what? Are you saying WS's are bad because you can't get into them?
WS's are, arguably, more numerically badass than PBs. I know that I can solo on x8 with my WS while my PB certainly cannot. Admittedly the WS is 50 while the PB is 30-something, but still. |
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Quote:
Yeah, but the WS has been 'better' at 20, when he got double Mire, and then 22 when he got Stygian Circle, and then 32 with Fluffies and then 38 was 'Ok, I'm awesome' with Eclipse. My PB will be getting Light form at 38 and...that's it, really. That's all the cool stuff done. The rest of the powers are gap-fillers while slots go in other stuff. |
Originally Posted by Tyger42
That would tend to make a slight difference............
|
Personally I love both Kheldians, now that I'm used to them a bit more and the Devs added some fixes to them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
Only use Human form for Seekers, which KO a mob in one shot anyway. Swap to Dwarf Form for melee which is all KD, and then fly over the mob with Nova so that KB becomes KD anyway.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I "underestimate" 'em all the time, since when they join teams I am on, I groan inwardly. Especially when I am on melee.
|
Blame players who are incompetent, not the powers
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Blasters - Energy
Controller - Ice
Scrapper - Martial Arts
Defender - Trick Arrow
Banes
Warshades - personal opinion, I have seen people play them well just not a good powerset for me.
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
My first two heroes, who wound up being my first two 50s, turned out to be an All-Star Team for Underpowered/Underperforming sets:
Elec/Fire Manip Blaster
Ice/FF Controller
They sounded cool but MAN were they tough to learn CoH on. It was already very challenging back in i3 with having to run everywhere in the Hollows, debt at lvl 5 and all the other Get Off My Lawn! hardships, and then you had to add learning the nuts and bolts of aggro, defense and tactics with powersets that did not pack enough offense and were not user-friendly in their workings. I did not feel "heroic" until the mid-thirties, which took FOREVER.
And seven and some years on, I am still here and still break those guys out upon occasion.
My philosophy is that the powerset is part of a puzzle on problem-solving. How can you defeat the baddies with the tools available? I enjoy PUGs and working in the context of the various new powers and playstyles to accomplish the mission. The original Infernal mission with the spawning portals was a MAJOR challenge, and sometimes, it just could not be done. But with the right tactics and a good Tank, it could be pulled off most of the time. I got to where I could pull Ferny without aggroing his pals most of the time.
As has been noted, in any list, something will come in last. That I got to 50 with those two guys and enjoyed most of the way is surprising in retrospect, but it helps explain why I am still lurking about.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
I love regen. If an archetype has regen, I have a character with it: Scrapper *1, Brute *3, and Stalker *2 .
My ultimate wish: Regen Tank! I WANTS IT!!!
Quote:
I've not PLed any of my character beyond the extent of one or two DFBs to start. (Most don't do DFB at all, but some do for the badges.) My Titan Weapon user is an Ice/Titan tanker, who started in Praetoria no less. Honestly, if that's not a stress test of a melee set's mettle, I'm not sure what is. I love this character- he's now my highest level redsider (41) I own and I often talk myself out of not playing him so the others get a day in the sun...|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I laughed all the way through deleting my TW Brute and Tank, too.
I am an extremely hard taskmaster [or taskmistress....?], and if I am not feeling the love for a set by no later than level 24, that toon is GONE |
But to get to your comment, You didn't get the feel of the power set by 24, even after a Brute gets:
Rend Armor 18 Melee, Extreme DMG(Smashing), Foe -Def(All), -Res(All) Huh. Different strokes and all that.
Worst powersets in the game ? Masterminds, apparently. I don't know what happened in the past month or so, but teams and trials are avoiding them like crazy. And if you do manage to get on a team, it's nothing but complaints. I've even been asked to "just follow along and buff & heal... enjoy the exp and inf... just Please don't pull out the pets". Sad.
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "
Quote:
Not in my experience.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
So, yeah, in short, Beast Mastery is great if you play it more actively than most people are used to having to play MMs. I wouldn't say it's in the top ranks for MM primaries, but certainly above Mercs. And Ninjas.
|
I'm a very active, "lead from the front"-style MM player, as anyone who's teamed with Hanano or the Unquiet Bride could tell you. I both have and make extensive use of my primary attacks, as well as picking up the additional ones from Epics. I've never seen the point of just standing back and leaving the guys on Bodyguard.
Nuwisha has her dire wolf.
I know how Pack Mentality works, and I use Fortify.
... and I stll find the Beast Mastery set to be an absolute pain in the rear to play, and considerably less enjoyable than any of the other MM sets I've run. (Ninja, Necro and Demons, to date-)
I'm glad someone likes it... but I doubt I'm ever going to.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
Quote:
Other than the pre-patch Magisterium where the pets were taking level shifts away from players, this is news to me. Which combo, out of curiosity?
|
Originally Posted by damienray
Worst powersets in the game ? Masterminds, apparently. I don't know what happened in the past month or so, but teams and trials are avoiding them like crazy. And if you do manage to get on a team, it's nothing but complaints. I've even been asked to "just follow along and buff & heal... enjoy the exp and inf... just Please don't pull out the pets". Sad.
|
Beast Mastery benefits greatly from a secondary that puts you in melee range with your pets.
Beast/Time is pretty good from what I've seen (I hate Masterminds, but my wife has a Beast/Time she's been leveling)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I have a Beast/Thermal, Necro/Dark, Robotics/Thermal, Thugs/Thermal. I've had them all for quite some time. And it's not just me, I've read in channels where MM's are being asked "...don't you have any Other type of toon you'd like to play ?". I'd say I have a pretty darn good setup for controlling my little minions, but the majority seem to want the pets to stay out of sight, no matter the experience level.
|
Originally Posted by BViking
Other than the pre-patch Magisterium where the pets were taking level shifts away from players, this is news to me. Which combo, out of curiosity?
|
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "
Quote:
Either I've been very lucky or it's a difference amongst servers, but I've never experienced that even with Demons and Bots. Sorry.
|
Originally Posted by damienray
I have a Beast/Thermal, Necro/Dark, Robotics/Thermal, Thugs/Thermal. I've had them all for quite some time. And it's not just me, I've read in channels where MM's are being asked "...don't you have any Other type of toon you'd like to play ?". I'd say I have a pretty darn good setup for controlling my little minions, but the majority seem to want the pets to stay out of sight, no matter the experience level.
|
Quote:
Well, there's been an issue for a while (basically since Beast Mastery was released, although the problem has shown up across all mastermind primaries) where pets aren't taking commands properly, and are have been charging AVs as soon as they spawn in incarnate trials, no matter how far away they are or what orders they're issued. Passive/Follow? They'll still run clear across the map to get splattered by Siege or Marauder.|
Originally Posted by damienray
Worst powersets in the game ? Masterminds, apparently. I don't know what happened in the past month or so, but teams and trials are avoiding them like crazy. And if you do manage to get on a team, it's nothing but complaints. I've even been asked to "just follow along and buff & heal... enjoy the exp and inf... just Please don't pull out the pets". Sad.
|
I've seen a lot of people who say they refuse to play their MM until that bug is fixed, and others who dismiss their pets at certain points on certain trials until the group is ready to rush in. I haven't heard of anyone flat-out avoiding MMs altogether, though.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
Quote:
That particular bug has already been fixed. |
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Well, there's been an issue for a while (basically since Beast Mastery was released, although the problem has shown up across all mastermind primaries) where pets aren't taking commands properly, and are have been charging AVs as soon as they spawn in incarnate trials, no matter how far away they are or what orders they're issued. Passive/Follow? They'll still run clear across the map to get splattered by Siege or Marauder.
I've seen a lot of people who say they refuse to play their MM until that bug is fixed, and others who dismiss their pets at certain points on certain trials until the group is ready to rush in. I haven't heard of anyone flat-out avoiding MMs altogether, though. |
It was done awhile back, and mentioned in the patch notes.
I've had my MMs in quite a few trials since then, and can confirm that the guys no longer make straight for the AVs. Which is a Good Thing, since that bug was as annoying as all hell.
As for people avoiding MMs in general... That's nothing new, I'm afraid. People may just be getting more honest or more vocal about it on your server, dameinray. The truth is that some of the pets really ARE pretty obnoxious in close quarters. Bots are huge. Demons are huge and LOUD. Ninja and Beasts move fast and can very easily get out of control if the MM doesn't know how to keep them on a tight leash... Even zombies, mercs and thugs can be a pain if the person driving them isn't very experienced with them and is still learning the ropes of the AT.
So... yeah. Even though a good MM can add a lot to a group or a league, I can't say I blame people for having doubts, because there are definitely potential draw-backs to having them along.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
I don't care for Masterminds myself. I'll still team with them but I tend to only team with up to 2 on a team. Anymore than that and I'm probably going to tell the leader I'm calling it quits for the day. If it's a trial? I don't honestly care because the issue they cause is moot. But the issues they cause with me:
-Lag. Not all of the time though but on certain occasions it can wear on my system needing to keep up with 3+ MMs with 4-6 pets running about.
-Visual Clutter. As the game is now, when people start throwing around lots of powers, it's difficult to actually tell what's going on at times. Having 12+ extra pets throwing around more powers and obscuring the battle field so it's tough to see just how many foes there are is annoying.
-In the damned way. I heard they fixed it so pets can be moved...then I went and tried it and it's *still* a pain to get around/through pets. On close maps, it's annoying trying to get through them in a narrow hall or cave. When running to the next area (which may or may not be on a far corner of the map), it's annoying having them push through my path and alter my trajectory as the pet rushes to catch up to their master.
I still team with MMs and I don't request they use less pets or stay at a certain proximity, but I *will* limit the number of MMs I team with to cap the annoyance I am forced to deal with.
I kinda sorta wish MMs had a kind of 'leave my sight for now' command that semi-dismisses minions. The pets are still there, you just can't see or interact with them...then another 'come to me' command that calls the pets back to you in the exact same state they were in before they left. Then, at least half the annoyance of the pets' presence somewhat dealt with if the MM uses that command. I wouldn't have to deal with them getting in my way during travel, I wouldn't have to be turning and tabbing toward the end of a confrontation, wondering how many foes are still left and I wouldn't have them blocking my doors.
When it comes to players doing that stuff, well, they're people. They have rights. NPC pets don't have rights...they're just expendable minions >_>
Quote:
You'd probably get less flaming in a thread about the worst posters, than the worst powersets. The forums are kind of strange that way.
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Venture and Butane don't make that list? I'd probably add on FloatingFatman too...and Leo_G can be annoying at times...And Arcana is condescendingly obnoxious more than often...and Samuel_Tow is novel-long-post obnoxious...could probably throw GuyPerfect in there too...I may need to coordinate a list here.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Sonic Resonance and Trick Arrow are the two worst support sets for different reasons.
Sonic only really has it's +res bubbles which are inferior in protection to FF's +def bubbles, unless you somehow have +regen +heals to support it (like thermal). Couple with that it has the worst designed anchors in the game and a detention field power and a redundant clear mind clone on top of already having a Dispersion bubble.
Trick Arrow has the issue of taking 3 powers to do what any other support set would do in 1 power and then also having inferior numbers on it's debuff values on top of that. Also every power in this set seems to draw an enormous amount of aggro even off taunt aura tanks. PGA, Glue, and Flash seem pointless to even cast on teams as they will only get you killed and really add nothing significant to the fight, and take way too long to apply for crappy values. So the only 3 powers you ever end up using are the 2 -res arrows and oil slick, the latter being the only power that contributes anything significant and has a long cooldown.
Ice Melee and Ice control are pretty awful sets too.
Of course, I haven't posted much in here.