Proposed Snipe Changes - Please no "Magic Number" for useful snipes
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-21 10:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Yep it can work, though why bother with Kismet at all when you can simply Power Build Up Farsight for uber defense AND to-hit! But its not much different from what other power sets or AT's have to do when you really look at it. |
Originally Posted by Oliin
That's why I said, "Well along with a kismet."
Assuming I'm looking at mids correctly though a kismet and farsight slotted enough for to-hit gets you to 22% by itself even for a corruptor. Won't be up constantly unless you're using IOs or HOs and the like though. HOs work fantastically in it for both corruptors and defenders but titan origins only seem to work for defenders(gets you to 21.5% or so on a corruptor). Still, you can slot them at 37 I believe and they give to-hit, recharge and defense. Not terribly strange slotting I don't think. |
Like I mentioned in my previous post if they give Blasters a passive 5% to-hit buff in Defiance, and give Dominators a 5% to-hit buff when Domination is up, then those AT's don't have to do anything really different from Corruptors and Defenders to hit that 22% plateau.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
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Here's a link to a recipe for perma T4 with Farsight on a Corruptor assuming a target of 22%. I didn't want to post the whole build.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...430400A3BBFA62
Or x3 Membrane Exposure, x2 ToHit Buff, x1 Kismet. The power isn't quite perma set up that way on its own but Hasten and Chrono Shift easily carry it there. Of course, as mentioned, for Time, I usually look to Power Boost anyway, especially if I were building for this.
The downside is missing a LotG there (most likely) so you would probably realistically put Kismet is another power, like Hover or Combat Jumping.
(Completely unrelated, if the understanding that Energy Manip can get this effect perma'd via Power Boosted Tactics is correct, I am entertained to think of Moonbeam as a T4; coupled with Boost Range, it has a range of ~280 feet wihout range slotting and a recharge of 12, probably reducible to around 4.5-5 or so with a good build).
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/Energy Manip can indeed do what you're suggesting ^_^ oh the fun we shall have if this actually goes live... and isn't "Hybrided"
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
(Completely unrelated, if the understanding that Energy Manip can get this effect perma'd via Power Boosted Tactics is correct, I am entertained to think of Moonbeam as a T4; coupled with Boost Range, it has a range of ~280 feet wihout range slotting and a recharge of 12, probably reducible to around 4.5-5 or so with a good build).
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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I like this suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I am amazed at some things that are being stated. Glad that we have this opportunity though to hash it out for all to see.
Many of the "opponents" of perma-fast snipes are also saying that it will not be that great of an improvement. Ok then, why would you be opposed to a more sensible system that is fair across all ATs. Tied to +ToHit like it seems to be, is flat out favoring certain builds and AT/powersets. And IF, this is not that great of a boost (which, I am sorry, IT IS), why does it surprise anyone that people will build for it. They will. The problem is that whatever system is used should be just as "Achievable" for any snipe-using Powerset AND any Snipe-using AT. The current porposal IS NOT EQUITABLE. The more I think on this, the more I am in-line with Arcanaville. If you currently have no aggro, then the attack should do Double Damage to its target AND have the interrupt. IF you have some aggro, then it becomes a standard, non-interruptable attack with some value around its current one, perhaps slightly lowered because of activation rules. THEN, people could take the attack and use it either way, but it would only be stellar dmg AS A SNIPE. |
I am in the camp that the change is pretty poor (Because fast snipes won't make much difference since the thing snipes needed was damage just as much as activation time and ST powers have narrow use anyway) but completely unfair to several combo's.
Regardless of how good or bad the snipes end up, it should be set in a system that every powerset has an equal chance of leveraging it, and ideally in a way that you cannot build to take greater advantage of it, or at least do so without being forced into certain powers. Even worse it should not be set in a way that a team can completely change the way a power works for you to the degree that this can.
If they really only want fast snipe with Aim/BU but are worried about sets without those powers why don't they just change the recharge so you can't mash it?
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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And I'd rather not repeat the mistakes of the past. Assassin's Strike was changed because it required something similar to the agro rule your talking about here with the added benefit of having not been hit, on an AT designed to shed agro. And it was found that this mechanic hindered Stalker Damage output enough to warrant making the change.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
The more I think on this, the more I am in-line with Arcanaville. If you currently have no aggro, then the attack should do Double Damage to its target AND have the interrupt. IF you have some aggro, then it becomes a standard, non-interruptable attack with some value around its current one, perhaps slightly lowered because of activation rules. THEN, people could take the attack and use it either way, but it would only be stellar dmg AS A SNIPE.
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So If it were agro based the second anyone on your team interacted with mobs in any way you would now have agro largely negating the advantage your talking about here.
For One single target power you think people will change their builds?
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
For One single target power you think people will change their builds?
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I think people will roll whole new toons to take advantage of this.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Agreed.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
For One single target power you think people will change their builds?
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PERSONALLY I found these change useless and more smoke and mirrors.
When you just stand back for one moment and look it's one single target power. Build wise what is this gonna do for anyone. You know who this affect or matters to, it's those that couldn't do anything special in the first place. Meaning players who don't understand min and maxing.
I can solo 4/8 on my AR Device, I can solo 4/8 on my Archery Trick Arrow defender, I can solo 4/8 on my Traps AR Defender. So respec so I can kill a single target that much faster ? Why, when I can kill them all.
Personally I think it was just some way to get more players to use Device set. This way they can fudge the numbers for the number of players that use the device set, I would guess even games have performance metrics that have to be met for the bosses. Overall I think its cool for device this way more players can complain about the other 8 powers in devices.
Basically all this did was take away the interrupt from snipes. Again I am assuming it did, because they didn't state otherwise. It would be funny if they didn't.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Yes those that don't understand min and maxing will. These players will invest to kill one target a bit faster then killing everything faster. I used to be that player until I seen the light.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Yes.
I think people will roll whole new toons to take advantage of this. |
Now don't get me wrong I will say this. If I have a Device toon and making these changes does not affect my overall performance changes, then yes I would do them.
But I would not make a device toon just to have this change. Because Device is weak when compared to other sets in the blaster Arch Type.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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One single power is what puts Fire Blast substantially ahead of every other set for DPS. When one power is on a short enough cooldown to be 30-50% of your damage, it absolutely does change things.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
For One single target power you think people will change their builds?
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When Claws and Super Reflexes were revamped i did make a Claws/SR to try them out, but that was entire powersets being changed. Not going to happen just for the snipe changes, but my EB/Devices and Archery/EM will probably get played more...
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Yes.
I think people will roll whole new toons to take advantage of this. |
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So Rain of Fire is getting changed too? Or will the snipe now put out out more effective DPS against 8 or more mobs at a time?|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
One single power is what puts Fire Blast substantially ahead of every other set for DPS. When one power is on a short enough cooldown to be 30-50% of your damage, it absolutely does change things.
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When i play Fire Blast it's for the AoE potential.
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So, do you know a lot of optimized FB builds that skip Blaze? Since it's one of those single target powers that are apparently useless.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
So Rain of Fire is getting changed too? Or will the snipe now put out out more effective DPS against 8 or more mobs at a time?
When i play Fire Blast it's for the AoE potential. |
I have Blaze and only use it to finish a boss. FSC,RoF,Breath and Fireball are what I use on a Fire/Fire
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Even on AVs?|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I have Blaze and only use it to finish a boss. FSC,RoF,Breath and Fireball are what I use on a Fire/Fire
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Look, I agree that AoE damage rules most of the game, but the argument here seems to be "single target damage is irrelevant." By that standard, the devs could just give us instant-cast snipes automatically, since any non-AoE power has been deemed not worth the effort to balance.
Half the arguments I'm seeing for the +22 hit fast snipe cutoff are "the hard cap cutoff doesn't matter because it's gonna fly past most players." If it's not gonna affect most players...why are they making it?
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Well, there is a fair bit of latitude between OMG SET DEFINING POWER and SKIPPABLE TRASH POWER.|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
So, do you know a lot of optimized FB builds that skip Blaze? Since it's one of those single target powers that are apparently useless.
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Blaze is a great single target attack....which isn't part of my fire/dark's regular attack chain. It's handy for cleaning up whatever tough targets survive my salvo of AoEs, but it's certainly the Goat's least-used attack.
Not because it sucks, because it's not needed.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I have Blaze and only use it to finish a boss. FSC,RoF,Breath and Fireball are what I use on a Fire/Fire
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For an AoE focuesed character, single target damage IS largely irrelevant.|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
Even on AVs?
Look, I agree that AoE damage rules most of the game, but the argument here seems to be "single target damage is irrelevant." By that standard, the devs could just give us instant-cast snipes automatically, since any non-AoE power has been deemed not worth the effort to balance. |
My spines scrapper has garbage single target damage- so what? I don't even notice.
In fact, it may be generally irrelevant...or at least much harder to leverage in a way that upsets the dev's desired time/reward ratio.
Let's assume a single target attack that more or less 'insta kills' anything below a boss/av. Unless it had some kind of ridiculous recharge/activation time a character armed with this power would *still* take far, far longer to clear out a X8 spawn than my fire/dark would.
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
Pew! *kill*
pretty much sucks compared to
BOOOOM! *kill kill kill kill kill kill*
BOOOOM! *kill kill kill kill kill kill*
-off to the next spawn-
So, from a game balance perspective I think the devs are much more comfortable with a wide-ranging buff affecting a high damage single-target attack than a lot of other changes they could have made.
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So what your saying is your soloing AV's currently on your fire toon correct..|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
Even on AVs?
Look, I agree that AoE damage rules most of the game, but the argument here seems to be "single target damage is irrelevant." By that standard, the devs could just give us instant-cast snipes automatically, since any non-AoE power has been deemed not worth the effort to balance. Half the arguments I'm seeing for the +22 hit fast snipe cutoff are "the hard cap cutoff doesn't matter because it's gonna fly past most players." If it's not gonna affect most players...why are they making it? |
So whats your point then ? Swap out Blaze for Blaze Bolt ? Replace one power with Blaze Bolt to kill the AV faster ?. Again whats the point ? Your killing an AV. I mean really think about it. Your fighting and winning solo against one of the TOUGHEST mobs in the game. I mean that is tougher then soloing 4/8. So who cares if it took you 5 minutes instead of 2. I would scoff at the person who made such a foolish comment against you for such a thing. That is similar to down playing someone doing a TF solo and taking 3 hours to complete it. You just really can't without looking stupid.
Now on the flip side IF your not talking solo and your talking team environment when fighting a AV then you are a bit slow in the head and I won't even explain why, because the reality is you wouldn't get it anyways. But I'm sure your talking solo.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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They require exactly one: Aim or TD. If the devs make reasonable changes to blaster tohit mechanics, probably BU as well. Everything else is min/maxing, and min/maxing is never required.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
If I24 went live with the changes to Snipe we know of, are there any other attacks in the game that require so many other power picks or build approaches to use?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
For an AoE focuesed character, single target damage IS largely irrelevant.
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Then there shouldn't be an objection to just giving the benefit all of the time or none of the time, because it isn't very good. In fact, "irrelevant." Which raises the question of why even spend any time coding it, and not just leave snipes alone. The argument of irrelevance is self-immolating. It has to matter someone or there would be no reason to change it, or defend change as vigorously as you have here.
Also, an observation. For years the mantra around here was that AoE was all that mattered. Single target attacks were basically the "trash" you used to fill in your AoE chain so you weren't bored, maybe finish off a target or two.
I've been noticing a trend over the past couple of years, that I don't think is coincidental with pylon testing, where a large contingent of players is now saying that AoE is irrelevant, that the game has "shifted" to where single target is all that matters.
It seems one thing the sniper change is doing is reinvigorating the AoE is all that matters camp. Which I think is a good thing, because if there's going to be inaccurate nonsense on the forums, it might as well be balanced in both directions so most players assume its all noise.
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Heh this is funny. I used to be of the camp that single target DPS was all that mattered. This was back when you could only set missions to +2 and in order to cause an AV to spawn it had to be on +2 difficulty.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, an observation. For years the mantra around here was that AoE was all that mattered. Single target attacks were basically the "trash" you used to fill in your AoE chain so you weren't bored, maybe finish off a target or two.
I've been noticing a trend over the past couple of years, that I don't think is coincidental with pylon testing, where a large contingent of players is now saying that AoE is irrelevant, that the game has "shifted" to where single target is all that matters. It seems one thing the sniper change is doing is reinvigorating the AoE is all that matters camp. Which I think is a good thing, because if there's going to be inaccurate nonsense on the forums, it might as well be balanced in both directions so most players assume its all noise. |
Now that you can -1 to +4 and size of spawns up to +8, I look at builds that can do a lot of AOE damage. I tend to solo a lot and I can level a character like a madman on a X8 setting.
My view has shifted.
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I didn't say it "wasn't very good".|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Then there shouldn't be an objection to just giving the benefit all of the time or none of the time, because it isn't very good.
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I said it was largely irrelevant to an AoE-focused build.
Is every AT in the game an AoE specialist?
Does every player focus on maximizing their AoE attacks?
No?
Well then.
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I think your twisting it a bit around because the sub debate is aoe vs single target. BUT I do agree why even change it because it is useless or of no great improvement to many builds. Personally I would rather use Aim and build up on firing 2 AOEs that will kill everything then 1 target.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Then there shouldn't be an objection to just giving the benefit all of the time or none of the time, because it isn't very good. In fact, "irrelevant." Which raises the question of why even spend any time coding it, and not just leave snipes alone. The argument of irrelevance is self-immolating. It has to matter someone or there would be no reason to change it, or defend change as vigorously as you have here.
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As for it mattering to someone, well I think that is irrelevant in the sense out of everything that many players have posted about suggestions and ideas this is the one idea I honestly didn't see posted anywhere and honestly there were some great ideas posted by many players over the years and in the recent months. Again I might have missed it being posted. But I think the issue was much more then snipes.
End result, I know you players suggested choices A,B,C,D or E but we the Devs have choice F for you. Enjoy..
But as it is being debated AOE vs Single target against a AV. If you were killing the AV before this proposed change what exactly does this change do for you ? Kill it faster maybe ? I guess it matters if your the kind of player that has to kill off a AV before heading to work to start the day off right or something. But beyond that there does come a point where killing faster just is irrelevant when dealing with a AV type mob. I think most would agree killing a AV solo is an impressive feat regardless if you did it with or without snipe changes.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Assuming I'm looking at mids correctly though a kismet and farsight slotted enough for to-hit gets you to 22% by itself even for a corruptor. Won't be up constantly unless you're using IOs or HOs and the like though. HOs work fantastically in it for both corruptors and defenders but titan origins only seem to work for defenders(gets you to 21.5% or so on a corruptor). Still, you can slot them at 37 I believe and they give to-hit, recharge and defense. Not terribly strange slotting I don't think.
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