Proposed Snipe Changes - Please no "Magic Number" for useful snipes

Are you saying no one takes a snipe right now? Cause I am confident that is not true.

Are snipes avoided by quite a few? Sure they are. I'm one of them. But I know people do take them right now.

Those that have them now will make better use of them without any build changes once it goes live.

Those that don't have them will at the very least look at them again to see if they can leverage them in some way. I personally fall into this category.

Some will build for perma-fast-snipe.

Some will build for almost perma by cycling aim and build up

Some will leave their build alone and say it's not worth it to try and fit in the snipe.

The change brings options no matter which way you look at it.

Most: 1. in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number.

All: 1. the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration): all the cake; all the way; all year.

And yes what I didn't say wasn't true.

With all due respect, something here just doesn't add up for me.

Blaster Devices granting perma-fast Snipe is being promoted as a big advantage. But Tactics gives the same advantage to a Corruptor or Defender. It's practically the same power, except Tactics affects the whole team.

So is this change big or is it not? If it's a big advantage to Devices it's a big advantage to Tactics. If it's not, it's not.

I think this is still the response to that:

[QUOTE=Biospark;4283847]We are not saying that it is not an improvement over the existing powers, just that it is not enough, and not fairly distributed amongst Powersets OR Archetypes. Certainly, this alone should make the Devs take another look at it./QUOTE]

That's still debated by some who seem to think the discrepancy is okay or a good thing, but it's still a valid rebuttal.

Horrendously bad options are horrendously bad options and really aren't worth consideration in the context of improving blast sets.

Kyriani usually has some pretty valid points in these discussions and I think that's the case here as well. I disagree with her (him?) on this topic but I at least see her POV, even if I don't agree with it.

I see and understand it, but it's the same one that people didn't want blasters improved were making.

If you want to do things poorly that option is always there for you. The people who felt blasters and blast sets had problems are the ones not being well addressed by these changes.

I think you're dancing between two different topics.

Blasters and Snipes

Targeting Drone has nothing to do with Tactics IMO. One power is in a secondary, affects only the user, is much cheaper to run and does stuff Tactics doesn't do. The other power is a pool power ANY character can take, some AT's get more out of it than others, it affects the team, and costs much more to run.

What other AT's get out of the snipe change isn't really relevant to what Blasters get because the change is a change to snipes not blasters.

The change is big overall. Some ATs, powers and powerset combos have an easier time taking advantage of the change but ALL who have a snipe can benefit to some degree. It's up to the players to decide how to take advantage of the change or if it's even worth it for their specific character.

When dealing with such varied AT's, powersets and combos, it would be nearly impossible for every iteration to get the exact same benefit. Those that feel they don't get enough can simply avoid taking the snipe. Fair is not a word I'd use in this discussion. Balanced would be the better word IMO. And the devs will ensure balance one way or the other.

Who cares if corrupters get a buff too?

That doesn't lessen the improvement for my ar/dev. It's not a zero sum game.

I have one corrupter at a meaningful level, the Goat who's fire/dark.
His build is pretty much locked in, doesn't include the snipe & I won't be respec'ing him to pick it up. He's an AoE monster & Blaze does fine to whittle down occasional hard targets.

He doesn't need a buff so I won't be taking advantage of it.

My ar/dev, on the other hand, does so I'll be messing around with his build to see if I can stuff Snipe back in even though he's got ranged defense capped.

Plus, let's recall that this is all VERY preliminary. It hasn't even gone to beta yet.
If there ends up being an imbalance between the various ATs with access to the snipe change I trust that they'll adjust things to iron it out.

Actually Tactics costs 0.39 endurance/sec versus 0.31 in Targeting Drone. The difference isn't very extreme.


A change to snipes is relevant to everyone affected. This isn't me griping that Defenders and Corruptors get something Blasters don't (at least, not only that). It's also about how this will affect my Corruptors and Defenders. I will need to take Tactics now for the same reason I used to need to take Stamina. It's not "optional" except in a very limited sense.

All of this is why if the change is great for Targeting Drone, it's also great for Tactics. If the change is not that great, then Devices isn't that great and neither is the change to snipes itself, which makes me question why we even need this hurdle to acquire fast sniping. If it doesn't have that much impact, why require hitting magic numbers to use it?

Ultimately, I don't care if in the end they decide to either move the 22% mark out of Corruptor reach, or just make it so everyone always gets fast-snipe no matter their to-hit, because the ending level of power is not my actual concern. My issue is that a 22% requirement for fast-snipe creates build incentives that are, for lack of a better term, "perverse." The system just does not work for me. It doesn't make making builds more interesting or add justifiable complexity. It's just a target number that is very easy to hit and in most cases self-defeating not to chase.

In defense of those worried about the changes, Goat, I'd just like to say I can understand WHY they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink out there as possible issues with the change.

The more things the devs see BEFORE it goes to beta the more likely it'll be in the most palatable form. Once things are in beta major changes are usually not likely and even if they do happen the devs probably grumble about having to make them quite a bit.

So while I agree with you that we really do need to see the changes in action as well as whatever else is coming down the pike for Blasters specifically, I do understand why some folks are passionately worried about the changes.

Forgive me, but you sound like a monkey screaming his hand is trapped in a jar by a handful of cookies.

You are NOT at any time obligated to take your snipe.

If you did take your snipe you are NOT at any time obligated to take tactics to make it perma-fast.

The intent of the change is NOT to make it easy to get perm-fast snipes. Once you accept that fact the 22% requirement becomes easier to understand.

If you CHOOSE to build for perma-fast and if it requires a certain build to achieve that is entirely on you to decide if it is worth it. If the answer is "it's not" then... don't?

But hey the devs may well decide that 22% is too high and lower it to 17% or some such who knows!

Everyone's free to sound off as loudly as they care to- that's what this place if for, after all.

I'm just genuinely bemused by some of the stuff they're choosing to freak out over. =P

You are also not, at any time, "required" to take your T3 Blast. You were not, at any time, "required" to take Stamina. You are not, at any time "required" to slot knockback protection IOs.

But not doing so is not really viable based on what the set offers. You cannot compare how the set is now to how it will be and say (paraphrasing) "Well you were fine with your damage then, you should be fine with it now." That is not how powerset buffs work. People are going to actually use these powers.

In the end, you have the "option" to skip a power that does significant additional damage, which is hardly an option at all. The argument that is always possible for someone to build in a way that is self-defeating does nothing for the disagreement over the path to performance being tortured.

Yet somehow all the non-melee ATs got along for years without the invention system.

Weird, since according to you that "isn't viable".

LOL and that goes along way to explaining why scrappers are the most popular AT.

Edit: shouldn't reply goat is up to his usual of needling people with genuine concerns

I can see how you might think that is what I was saying, but it's not related to my point.

Unviable for me is having the power available but not taking it. Before KB IOs were available, it couldn't be unviable because you had no option to take them. Now that they are available, not taking them in a build is just self-defeating. And one kind of argument that's impossible for me (or anyone) to win is one against an infinitely self-defeating player; he or she can invalidate any power evaluation or build choice. (I'm not say you are K fall intothat category, just in the abstract.)

What he said. And let me make my complaint more specific - the problem isn't that you *have* to take the snipe. Stalkers *have* to take Assassin's Strike, and I am be part of the vast majority who seem to have no issue with that.

The problem arises with the fact that once I take the snipe, I (as a Defender or Corruptor) must then go two deep into a specific Pool set in order to get full access to this incredibly potent attack that will be available every ~6 seconds. Plus, as a corruptor, I will be stacking 87% +hit in Tactics, violating an otherwise near-universal maxim of intelligent build design (don't keep stacking a stat once you reach the 15% return level of ED) because the last .6% hit I get from stacking a 4th +to-hit takes me past the magic number that makes my snipe fast cast. And a +hit Kismet is now mandatory...but I'm less irritated about that, one slot somewhere on my build irks me less than two mandated powers.

Sure, I *can* skip this whole mess - the same way you *could* skip Stamina when Fitness was a pool. But it was so good that it became mandatory, and I and Oedipus and others are arguing that reliable fast cast snipes are so good and so central that they *will* make Tactics mandatory for every Corruptor and Defender - especially since the Blaster version is apparently being balanced around the assumption that they'll have perma-fast snipes in parties. (Woe betide the post-I24 Defender who's in an 8 person party with a blaster who isn't receiving perma-fast snipes. I assure you the whining will be audible from orbit.)

TLDR - mandatory primary/secondary powers are OK, mandatory Pool Powers are bad, and perma-fast snipes are sufficiently potent that Tactics will become mandatory for any Def or Corr who aspires to play a halfway optimized build.

I guess our opinions will forever differ of what is "unviable" and what is not. Just because an ability gets buffed doesn't mean you absolutely MUST take it.

Consider this... yes snipes will be buffed... and yes if you can manage perma-fast snipe it will be a strong part of your attack chain. But at what cost? How many slots did you spend to achieve this? What powers got replaced to make it happen? Did you lose something else along the way JUST to make that snipe perma-fast? Is what you gave up WORTH that snipe?

Those are questions whose answers will differ from player to player. Performance may degrade in some areas so that you can improve your snipe to be "viable". It's give and take and one must really take a hard look at what's being given up to achieve that perma-fast snipe. Sure some combos and AT's will have an easier time getting to it. Others may have to work harder but may see bigger returns because of the nature of their AT or powerset.

The point is just because this change is coming doesn't mean you have to necessarily take advantage of it and even if you do it may not be as "viable" as you think it is compared to what you have to give up to make it work. It may be just as "viable" to continue to skip the snipe and THAT I believe is INTENDED. I do not believe the devs want to force us into taking snipes just because they are the end all be all. But they do want them to be tempting with or without the perma possibility.

Going by that definition there are probably more non-viable than viable characters in the game.

I'll stick to the dictionary, where nonviable means "cannot work".

Just because you personally play a certain way doesn't mean anyone else is following your lead.

I hate dev and think it stinks because I've been playing it almost since launch and it has aged very poorly- that doesn't stop it from being a popular choice, because a lot of other people either don't care that it stinks or like it anyway.

The baseline game is forgiving enough that nobody *needs* anything, particularly. Which makes pretty much any build choice you can come up with viable.

This, to me, is also the crux of the issue. Snipes are a fairly standard attack across many powersets and this does encourage some rather perverse builds that I can't imagine the devs are intending (from anything Hawk or Synapse have said, I don't think they want people to be building for a Kismet in a build and Tactics just because of the Snipe change).

I understand if they don't want people using an insta-snipe at all times. But if that's a requirement they want to have, it should be implemented more consistently/easily to play with. The 22% to hit requirement invites a lot of perverse playstyles, as you put it, and isn't as clear as a lot of combo systems new powersets have had (and I have read the complaints about the new trend of combos as well).

I see nothing any more "perverse" in using tactics/kismet/TD/link minds/you name it to achieve perma-fast snipes than building for soft capped defenses on a blaster, or perma indomitable will on a controller, or perma Phantom Army on an illusion controller or perma-hasten on every character under the sun.

It's a choice.

It is NOT however the only right choice and for many builds it could be a BAD choice.

That does NOT however mean the 22% requirement is a bad plateau.

Building for that 22% hit could cost you dearly... dear god you might drop below the softcap vs. energy or something else equally catastrophic!!!!

Power slots? 3 - the snipe, Assault or Maneuvers, and Tactics.
Well, what I *gave up* will vary from player to player and build to build.

What I *got*, for my three power choices, is a substantial to hit bonus for my entire party (and Confuse protection, FWIW), a substantial damage or noticeable defense boost for my entire party, and the deadliest attack in my chain.

Look at it this way - what one primary/secondary and two pool powers could you pick up that are *better* than what is offered by the preceding paragraph?
Here, let me throw those paragraphs into the Issue 18 Wayback Machine and see what comes out:

"Those are questions whose answers will differ from player to player. Performance may degrade in some areas so that you can take Health and Stamina. It's give and take and one must really take a hard look at what's being given up to achieve that extra +recovery and +regen. Sure some combos and AT's will have an easier time getting to it. Others may have to work harder but may see bigger returns because of the nature of their AT or powerset.
(removing bit about this being a change)
...It may be just as "viable" to continue to skip the Fitness Pool and THAT I believe is INTENDED. I do not believe the devs want to force us into taking Fitness Powers just because they are the end all be all. But they do want them to be tempting."

Save for the bits about it being a change, and perma-ing, the argument you presented also invalidates Inherent Fitness. If you thought Inherent Fitness was a mistake, you're entitled to your opinion, but the Devs disagreed with you. If you don't think perma-snipes will be mandatory in every solid build the way Fitness was...there's our disagreement.

What a meaningless statement.

Is my ar/dev "perverse" because he sacrificed some powers I liked in order to soft cap his ranged defense? Is my fire/dark corrupter "perverse" because I ignored "smart" bonus choices in order to stack as much +damage as I could?

There are no "perverse" build choices in this game, only more or less efficient ones. And the number of players who spend even a second worrying over efficiency is much smaller than the majority of folk in this thread seem to think.

Here's where I differ with you, for reasons mentioned in the post that began this thread. The blaster with 44% defense, the controller with a 97s recharge on Indomitable Will, the Illusionist with Phantom Army on 70s cooldown, and the character with 130s-recharge hasten are all doing pretty good. They have a gap in their awesome ability, but having it up a lot is still very useful even without permanence.

The Corruptor or Defender (or Blaster) with 21.5% +hit gets...a hit bonus. That's it. They will not gradually see something get better as they play and maybe choose to focus on it more, they will either see their snipe turn into their best attack - or not.

This change amounts to a very noticeable DPS bonus for forum readers, and a concomitant penalty to people who just play the game without reading up on it.