Proposed Snipe Changes - Please no "Magic Number" for useful snipes
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-21 10:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well, I think it is fine if they standardized the time around 2 to 2.5 seconds, but I kind of liked how the animation times worked out by chance to have an order that is interesting and could be argued to help balance.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't know that I agree with adding a flat amount of time to all snipes, it would seem to be better to standardize all of the snipes at a fixed activation time for the fast snipe.
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We might have to see what the animations look like to know. I believe Arbiter Hawk said some of the really short ones look weird as is and will be lengthened a bit. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
After stewing on the snipe changes, I think the current proposed snipes are TOO strong. Blast sets need improvement and snipes definitely need help, but this change focuses too much buff into one power/mechanic.
I would propose that the fast snipe animation times all have 1 second added back in (but still no interrupt). Those that would have been 0.67, become 1.67 (1.848 arcanatime). 1 second becomes 2 (2.244) 1.33 seconds becomes 2.33 (2.508) 1.67 seconds becomes 2.67 (2.904) This allows the animation to look nicer, still allows the snipes to have very solid DPA, while not focusing quite so much improvement into just one power (and the one to-hit mechanic). Other stuff should be done to help range sets as well, of course, but I think the snipes would be much more reasonably positioned at the animation times I listed. |
Other limiters could be recharge or just Aim and Build Up auto-triggering, or something like those things (dropping the To Hit requirement altogether). I also don't know how weird it might be for the standard snipes to increase their activation below the already lengthy interrupt. Can those two things be differentiated by the game?
At this point I'm a big a worn out the subject and just want to see what we test first. I don't know which of these insta-snipe ideas is better than just keeping them as they work and upping their damage more to make them worth using that way.
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This feels like a kludge. It's awkward. I enjoy analyzing and manipulating numbers to the point of eye strain, but this kind of mechanic would lead me away from snipes regardless of the damage contribution since it would be a hassle instead of fun. The whole debate concerning different AT modifiers highlights what I see as frustrating, rather than something that just needs to balanced properly.
The larger this boosts a character's damage, the more annoyed I would become when encountering all of the tiny needle pricks that would come with this system as described. While I would be able to manage the hurdles of sidekicking one level too low, or running against enemies with tohit debuffs, or any of the myriad of problems I could encounter, managing those types of downfalls wouldn't be fun. It would leave me with the crappy snipe I didn't originally want and now probably can't use at all due to the circumstances (such as those pulsing debuffs).
Fun, I think, would be more in the neighborhood of aim and buildup (edit: or fortitute, or targeting drone, or or this or that) providing this benefit regardless of the exact tohit buff, or fiddling with the snipe interruption/activation so there isn't a steep cliff between "omg awesome pow pow" and "your power was interrupted".
Fun would be the power's use being reliable and autohit. That'd be so $$.
IMO one of the more balanced way to approach it would be to have the animation time of the power reduce based on the Interupt time, with Aim and Build Up providing a reduction to Interupt. Our current system doesn't seem capable of adjustable cast times for the same animation, though, which is why we have this sort of awkward switch off with two completely seperate animations with no gulf in between them (made more awkward IMO that its possible to hit the target value with some easy but cookie cutter slotting).
Ultimately, what doesn't really concern me is how much actual total possible damage the sets end up kicking out after the change is done. I have personally never bothered to create an "attack chain" for a character, or bother to calculate cast times down to the Arcana time. I will pick up the T4s for the same reason I always picked up (most )T3s: even without a chain or a huge amount of min maxing their value is obvious.
I kind of feel the attention paid to chains is Blaster and Scrapper-think anyway. On a Defender, especially, I don't care that much about "chains" because I'm throwing other powers between the supposed chain. There is value just in having a very fast casting, very damaging power that you can toss between buff and debuff powers. Because of this if it came down to it I'd consider skipping some set's T3s or T2s in favor of Tactics and the hardhitting, fast casting huge range T4, although I doubt I'll actually run into this situation. A few sets lack T3s completely and are there already though.
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2.5 seconds? For a power that deals 2.76 DS? Thanks, but I already have plenty of those in energy blast. That would make the insta-snipe have limited value even in Energy Blast. In some sets, it wouldn't even be the third best single target attack even if it was perma-instant.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Well, I think it is fine if they standardized the time around 2 to 2.5 seconds, but I kind of liked how the animation times worked out by chance to have an order that is interesting and could be argued to help balance.
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Anything higher than the maximum snipe insta-cast of 1.67 seconds would enter the realm of the problematic. The only reason I'm not complaining about the 1.67s snipes is because one belongs to Fire Blast, and the other belongs to Archery, the set with the broken nuke. And honestly even Archery is a little too high to me.
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Keep thinking about the snipe changes while waiting for the Beta test to start.
Hurry up Devs ! 
While doing so, I thought of another way to balance the snipes that could be interesting.
What if the snipe were changed into regular attacks, in much the same manner that StratoNexus has suggested.
Normalize the animations between 1.67 to 1.87 secs.
Then, instead of an Interrupt OR a magic number, have the Damage scale up with +toHit.
So your character can increase the attack damage two ways. The normal ways thru +Dmg enhancement or powers, but ALSO thru boosting +ToHit. In this way you get benefit from all levels of +ToHit, whether its Tactics, Kismet, Aim, Buildup or whatever. No magic number.
Popping Aim right before shooting the snipe would add something regardless of other build decisions AND would be the the single highest source of extra damage. Yes, Defenders and Corruptors could get more overall +toHit, but due to their base dmg mods, would be less total damage than a blaster. And even if that somehow is not balanced, the devs can still boost the Blaster versions of Aim and Buildup to ensure that their Snipes are the best in every way.
Sorry for the long post
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*shrugs*|
Originally Posted by Dersk
This feels like a kludge. It's awkward. I enjoy analyzing and manipulating numbers to the point of eye strain, but this kind of mechanic would lead me away from snipes regardless of the damage contribution since it would be a hassle instead of fun. The whole debate concerning different AT modifiers highlights what I see as frustrating, rather than something that just needs to balanced properly.
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Then I don't think this fix is aimed at you then. IMO, the change to snipes is meant to make Snipes fun for the players that already wanted to take snipes but either only use them on rarer instances than a normal attack or to the players that just couldn't justify using a power slot on such a power. If all you're worried about is how awkward the *change* is and/or how it'd affect damage contribution and not specifically about *THE POWER ITSELF* (caps for emphasis, not yelling), then the change isn't meant for you.
The point is, you don't have to take snipes. If you want to take snipes, this change makes them somewhat more viable especially on teams. If your concern is min/maxing, then this should be a treat to attempt to leverage. If none of those are applicable to you, skip the power.
I mean, I realize how useful Hasten can be, but if it doesn't mesh with my look, doesn't fit conceptually or with playstyle (I don't put anything on auto...I click everything myself) or simply has no room because of all the other power picks, I will skip hasten, it's usefulness be damned.
Now why can't you do that for snipes?
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| Fun, I think, would be more in the neighborhood of aim and buildup (edit: or fortitute, or targeting drone, or or this or that) providing this benefit regardless of the exact tohit buff, or fiddling with the snipe interruption/activation so there isn't a steep cliff between "omg awesome pow pow" and "your power was interrupted". |
Meh, I'm not saying the snipe changes are the best, but I still like them and it will make my snipe taking characters more interesting.
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| Fun would be the power's use being reliable and autohit. That'd be so $$. |
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I kind of feel the attention paid to chains is Blaster and Scrapper-think anyway. On a Defender, especially, I don't care that much about "chains" because I'm throwing other powers between the supposed chain. There is value just in having a very fast casting, very damaging power that you can toss between buff and debuff powers. Because of this if it came down to it I'd consider skipping some set's T3s or T2s in favor of Tactics and the hardhitting, fast casting huge range T4, although I doubt I'll actually run into this situation. A few sets lack T3s completely and are there already though.
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That Blasters don't get the very same benefit seem unnecessary to me. Blasters are more selfish anyway. But beside that, it still gives them higher potential. Yes, the Def/Corr can get insta-snipe solo and debuff things like crazy...well, once a Blaster joins that, *they* get insta-snipe and take *better* advantage of those debuffs.
The snipe change isn't a fix for Blasters, it's a fix for ranged powersets. If you want an avenue in which to buff Blasters, they're getting a selfish means to do that but I'm hoping they look into less selfish avenues of buffage for Blasters...better controls, easier to leverage debuffs and the like sound like a good premise to go by. Thankfully, it looks like Ice Manipulation is getting just that, with wider AoE sleep, wider slow debuff aura along with their personal survival tools. Now just to get those wimpy ST control powers looked at...
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Why can't Defenders and Corruptors benefit greatly from a change like this?
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Indeed, why not? But this is a question for someone who said they shouldn't.
Like I've said a few times, I don't have any opinion on whether they should or shouldn't have the ability. My opinion is only about the gymnastics of hitting this specific number in a build that unlocks that ability, and missing it by 0.02% not unlocking it. This is not a debate abut Blasters versus Corruptors. Its partially a debate about the specific build a Corruptor (or Defender) has to commit to obtain the ability reliably, including the fact that Psy, Dark, and Assault Rifle don't even have an Aim type power to make the ability work.
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I see great potential in such a build. All you'd need is any yellow inspiration and you have fast cast. Actually, I had planned to do just that for my corr, set her up so that 1 yellow is ask it takes and literally pop them like aim...that lasts substantially longer.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Indeed, why not? But this is a question for someone who said they shouldn't.
Like I've said a few times, I don't have any opinion on whether they should or shouldn't have the ability. My opinion is only about the gymnastics of hitting this specific number in a build that unlocks that ability, and missing it by 0.02% not unlocking it. |
I'm thinking of some combo of archery on blaster to accomplish similar.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I see great potential in such a build. All you'd need is any yellow inspiration and you have fast cast. Actually, I had planned to do just that for my corr, set her up so that 1 yellow is ask it takes and literally pop them like aim...that lasts substantially longer.
I'm thinking of some combo of archery on blaster to accomplish similar. |
Just to clarify, are you saying you'd take Tactics and then underslot it so that you can eat Yellows and get the effect part time? I guess that's a solution of sorts but I can't see it being very popular. IMO if you're going to take Tactics you might as well slot it.
Small yellows by themselves only grant +7.5% according to Paragon Wiki so unless I've missed something changing there Tactics is still required unless you plan to only eat Large Yellows or stack the smaller ones. It apears to take 3 small yellows to unlock on its own. If you slot Kismet without Tactics, I think it still takes 3, because you end up with 7.5 + 7.5 + 6 = 21. Ouch.
[ADDENDUM: I wonder if there is a threshold where if you were tight on slots it would make more sense to perma the snipe but underslot it for damage, and instead use three reds to make up for it. Since the reds up the damage of all powers it would be curious to see.]
[ADDENDUM2: Just thought about super inspirations. While I'm not cynical enough to assume the power is designed this way to push players to use the cash shop, it wouldn't surprise me if some people are. IMO that's an argument against, not for, some of what I have said about putting the value out of reach. I think if it were in reach via more methods it might be fine. We may need to look out for strategies that ladder off of Tactics + super inspiration unlocking the ability.]
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I disagree. It is my opinion that the snipe doesn't have to be an extreme DPA attack. It just shouldn't always be a crappy DPA attack. I think it would be fine as a high DPA attack when the trigger condition is met instead of an extreme one.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
2.5 seconds? For a power that deals 2.76 DS? Thanks, but I already have plenty of those in energy blast. That would make the insta-snipe have limited value even in Energy Blast. In some sets, it wouldn't even be the third best single target attack even if it was perma-instant.
Anything higher than the maximum snipe insta-cast of 1.67 seconds would enter the realm of the problematic. |
My suggestion leaves the snipe as a higher DPA blast than either tier 1 or 2 (25% higher than Power Blast, for example). Due to Archery's poor DPA on its first two attacks it still makes out with that extra second added.
Snipes need to be a better choice. They are fine tactically, but that situation isn't all that prevalent, so it would be nice if they can also have some solid use outside of those situations. I don't think they need to increase the damage of single target attack chains by 25 to 40% when used, however. The fast cast snipe when 22% to-hit is reached is an excellent idea and I agree that making them have better DPA is very much needed. Double the DPA of tier 2 blasts, however, doesn't seem necessary to me.
That isn't to say I would have an issue with only adding 0.5 seconds, which would make the Energy snipe 57% better DPA than Power Blast, for example. I just think they would be more visually appealing with the full second added, be a solid choice, but not be as required in a min-max build.
A snipe change should make snipes appealing, not be a major source of damage increase for blast sets (a minor source, sure). I'd rather see other methods of increasing blast set damage than requiring the snipe and solid amounts of +to-hit.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Do you not think it is a better idea to make the power fun for everyone rather than keep it a niche power? Or in this case take the thing that annoys one group of people and replacing it with something that annoys another group?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
*shrugs*
Then I don't think this fix is aimed at you then. IMO, the change to snipes is meant to make Snipes fun for the players that already wanted to take snipes but either only use them on rarer instances than a normal attack or to the players that just couldn't justify using a power slot on such a power. |
There are plenty of powers that work in a variety of ways without annoying anyone, so they don't have to make snipes a power that only some like, it should be liked by all and loved by some.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
How is that fun? I mean, yeah, being able to hit a particularly dodgy foe by just sniping them sounds interesting but it's undermining to defense and only defense. So it's not fun on my defense characters. Not that your Blaster would be sniping my stalkers in PvE but it's the principle of the thing. It just makes a joke out of dodging/deflecting.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. It is my opinion that the snipe doesn't have to be an extreme DPA attack. It just shouldn't always be a crappy DPA attack.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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You dont run tactics on your blaster? I do.. I hate missing :P Just checked my build incl IO's on mids... my main blaster is on 33% to hit
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
I don't like it either because as people pointed out, a defender or corruptor can have the +22% up 100% of time (with tactics) while a blaster sans /dev cannot get that.
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The idea is to make them more worth taking, not reduce the penalty for people who happened to take them for situational reasons. If the DPA of the snipe was anywhere near the normal DPA for blaster attacks they wouldn't be worth the fact that they could still revert to their interruptible state.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. It is my opinion that the snipe doesn't have to be an extreme DPA attack. It just shouldn't always be a crappy DPA attack. I think it would be fine as a high DPA attack when the trigger condition is met instead of an extreme one.
My suggestion leaves the snipe as a higher DPA blast than either tier 1 or 2 (25% higher than Power Blast, for example). Due to Archery's poor DPA on its first two attacks it still makes out with that extra second added. Snipes need to be a better choice. They are fine tactically, but that situation isn't all that prevalent, so it would be nice if they can also have some solid use outside of those situations. I don't think they need to increase the damage of single target attack chains by 25 to 40% when used, however. The fast cast snipe when 22% to-hit is reached is an excellent idea and I agree that making them have better DPA is very much needed. Double the DPA of tier 2 blasts, however, doesn't seem necessary to me. That isn't to say I would have an issue with only adding 0.5 seconds, which would make the Energy snipe 57% better DPA than Power Blast, for example. I just think they would be more visually appealing with the full second added, be a solid choice, but not be as required in a min-max build. A snipe change should make snipes appealing, not be a major source of damage increase for blast sets (a minor source, sure). I'd rather see other methods of increasing blast set damage than requiring the snipe and solid amounts of +to-hit. |
Plus, I fundamentally disagree with a design rule of the game that the insta-snipe change counteracts. Melee DPA is significantly higher than ranged DPA, all things being equal, and that's not an accident or a mistaken perception: its deliberate. Outside of fire, its extremely rare to find ranged DPA higher than 1.3, and the average hovers just below 1.0. Conversely, melee DPA rarely drops much below 1.0, and in fact averages significantly higher. Most melee attack sets have at least one attack with a DPA at or near 1.3, even excluding assassin's strikes in stalker sets. Most ranged sets don't.
That insta-snipes, which in most builds will only be available 50-75% of the time, elevate ranged DPA by about as much on average as the invisible ranged penalty embedded in the game design is in my opinion a fortuitous accident.
To put it another way, if Insta-snipe is a problem, what's Clobber?
Also, insta-snipe at 2.5 seconds of cast time would have a net arcanatime adjusted DPA of 1.045. That's only trivially higher than Power Burst at 0.945 (10.6% higher). And also incidentally lower than more than half of all melee single target attacks. For the tohit cost to make it insta-snipe in the first place, and the fact that it reverts to interruptible outside of that window, I probably wouldn't take the snipe for that benefit alone, and I already know how to make the snipe insta in my energy build.
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If snipes get a buff which as a happy co-incidence brings them on par with melee sets it reduces the possibility that blast sets will get a proper buff which does the same thing but in a more intuitive way.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The idea is to make them more worth taking, not reduce the penalty for people who happened to take them for situational reasons. If the DPA of the snipe was anywhere near the normal DPA for blaster attacks they wouldn't be worth the fact that they could still revert to their interruptible state.
Plus, I fundamentally disagree with a design rule of the game that the insta-snipe change counteracts. Melee DPA is significantly higher than ranged DPA, all things being equal, and that's not an accident or a mistaken perception: its deliberate. Outside of fire, its extremely rare to find ranged DPA higher than 1.3, and the average hovers just below 1.0. Conversely, melee DPA rarely drops much below 1.0, and in fact averages significantly higher. Most melee attack sets have at least one attack with a DPA at or near 1.3, even excluding assassin's strikes in stalker sets. Most ranged sets don't. That insta-snipes, which in most builds will only be available 50-75% of the time, elevate ranged DPA by about as much on average as the invisible ranged penalty embedded in the game design is in my opinion a fortuitous accident. To put it another way, if Insta-snipe is a problem, what's Clobber? |
Blast sets do need more damage, but one extremely powerful power doesn't seem to be the way to go about it imho.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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I disagree. I think they would be much more worth taking because you know you can get good (not extreme) DPA out of them after Aim (and hopefully Build Up/TD) while still also getting the (admittedly limited) tactical benefit.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The idea is to make them more worth taking, not reduce the penalty for people who happened to take them for situational reasons. If the DPA of the snipe was anywhere near the normal DPA for blaster attacks they wouldn't be worth the fact that they could still revert to their interruptible state.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Plus, I fundamentally disagree with a design rule of the game that the insta-snipe change counteracts. Melee DPA is significantly higher than ranged DPA, all things being equal, and that's not an accident or a mistaken perception: its deliberate.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That insta-snipes, which in most builds will only be available 50-75% of the time, elevate ranged DPA by about as much on average as the invisible ranged penalty embedded in the game design is in my opinion a fortuitous accident.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To put it another way, if Insta-snipe is a problem, what's Clobber?
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I think it would be better to have higher DPA across the board, rather than focusing so much on one attack, I'd rather that in the general case blaster range DPAs were ~70 with some attacks that went modestly higher and then maybe a few in specific sets that went even higher.
Stalkers were always built around Assassin Strike, so buffing them by buffing that attack works for me conceptually and mechanically (while I don't think they should have been designed around that one attack, the fact is they were and legacy matters).
Blasters were not built around the snipe and the snipe has traditionally been a niche power. I strongly want the snipe to be more than that, but I do not want it to become as important to blasters as Assassin Strike is to stalkers.
Of course, I'd buff all blaster attacks (and corruptor and defender blasts, too).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, insta-snipe at 2.5 seconds of cast time would have a net arcanatime adjusted DPA of 1.045.
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Even 2.33 seconds allows for 25% higher DPA than Power Blast (17% higher than Power Burst), which is not an insignificant amount. But perhaps 0.5 seconds higher than the current proposed would be better than 1 second higher: 1.83 seconds, that is 57% better than Blast and 47% better than Burst.
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So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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I slot for accuracy & have plenty of + accuracy bonus that gather when you IO for anything. |
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
You dont run tactics on your blaster? I do.. I hate missing :P Just checked my build incl IO's on mids... my main blaster is on 33% to hit
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When I grab tactics, it's normally either to help with Pets, or confuse protection over the increased chance to hit.
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It doesn't matter why: the reason it can't be reversed is because that would require revising too many powers. So even if you could disprove the rationale for is existence, that would at this point be irrelevant.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I don't have a strong opinion on that rule. I'd have to see more about why it was implemented. While I have never felt range was as large an advantage as the game purported, I do think it does have advantages. I do think blasters specifically should be able to have higher DPA than armored characters, but that can be handled by the AT damage mod (which means we would need to talk in actual damage rather than scale values).
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| Clobber is a must take attack (I eventually respecced into it after they made that change) but I don't have to build special to utilize its high DPA all the time. I don't think Insta-snipe is a problem from the perspective of ranged having DPA that high. I think it would be fine for blasters to have an attack with DPA as high as 156 base damage per second (which is 104 for corruptors, scrapper Clobber is 138, for reference). I don't like that that extreme DPA is tied to the snipe/insta-snipe mechanic (only). |
If you're objection is that the snipes have too much power gated that's a separate issue, but that has nothing to do with them being too powerful intrinsically.
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| OK, you have convinced me that standardizing the snipes at 2.5 seconds would not be best (which wasn't hard, because I already thought that, but that was the high end of my suggestion and still not terrible, merely pedestrian, I'd rather not go to that outlier level across the board either). You have not convinced me that snipes at some value in between the proposed times and 2.5 seconds would not be best. |
If the interrupt window was removed completely, permanently, for blasters and I had to set the DPA of the sniper blasts under that condition, I would today probably set them to about 1.3-1.4 DS/sec given the context they live in now. That's *without* the disadvantage of ever reverting to interruptible.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If the interrupt window was removed completely, permanently, for blasters and I had to set the DPA of the sniper blasts under that condition, I would today probably set them to about 1.3-1.4 DS/sec given the context they live in now. That's *without* the disadvantage of ever reverting to interruptible.
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That would certainly be better than what is proposed now. Really the time to put in complications for blasters in general would be after they are doing reasonably well. Putting in strange mechanisms now will just muddy the waters
Also devices has a method in place for improving snipes performance that could be leveraged to help out the set more.
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Sorry to Paraphrase Tex, but something that I have been thinking about regarding someone's idea of putting the tohit "magic number" out of reach without Aim is this ; |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
[ADDENDUM2: Just thought about super inspirations. While I'm not cynical enough to assume the power is designed this way to push players to use the cash shop, it wouldn't surprise me if some people are. IMO that's an argument against, not for, some of what I have said about putting the value out of reach. I think if it were in reach via more methods it might be fine. We may need to look out for strategies that ladder off of Tactics + super inspiration unlocking the ability.] |
So let's say the devs decide on that path and make no manner of powers + IO + slotting to get the magic number, and instead have the number something only reachable thru AIM like +35%. Ok, fine, everyone can ONLY use it the same way. No build hassles, just take and use AIM. What happens when you are debuffed by enemy mobs and now EVEN WITH AIM, you cannot hit that magic number ?
Raising the "Magic" number is even worse than the current proposal. Hopefully the devs will find a good (fair) solution that allows all ATs to choose and use the power in the new (fast) way.
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I don't think I can truly say that the current values are too high, objectively. What is the DPA of unhidden Assassin Strike with 3 stacks of Focus? 3 DS/second or higher? I would not argue that the DS/second of insta-snipes is too high for balance concerns.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You haven't stated an objective reason why the current values are too high. You've only stated why you're equally comfortable with lower numbers. You're looking for the lowest possible value that still works. I'm not. I myself pointed out to Arbiter Hawk that sniper rifle and psionic lance would likely need to be tweaked, but a 1.74 DS/sec single target ranged attack that is sometimes interruptible and has a 12 second recharge is, in terms of overbuffing blasters, a squirt gun.
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I am not looking at this in terms of overbuffing blasters (which this certainly doesn't do), rather I am thinking it overbuffs snipes, but for subjective reasons. I don't think it is good for a special, tactical attack to be this valued, and I definitely don't like that value in a gated mechanic across multiple sets, because ranged sets were not designed with that type of gated mechanic as a defining feature.
Stalker's Assassin Strike was already gated, so adding another gate to it, and keeping that power integral to the AT was reasonable. It also helps that every set actually has Assassin Strike.
So I object to it for both reasons you mention. I just don't think the snipers should be that good for DPA AND I don't think ranged sets should end up with an AT defining gate.
Objectively, ranged sets can't have snipes as an integral attack because not all sets have snipes. I have no problem adding an interesting gate for snipes as is proposed and I think what is behind the gate should be good. I just don't think it should elevate ranged sets DPA chains by 25% or more. Not because ranged sets shouldn't get an increase at least that large, but because that increase shouldn't be tied (solely) to snipes. Sure, that is subjective, but it is supported by legacy.
I do recognize that calling the snipes set defining is subjective as well. I have to admit I do not think they are so good that they must be taken. I do think they are pretty close though, and I don't think they need to be in order for snipes to be worthwhile.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Been a while since I stuck my neck out in this thread, so here's an idea - double the damage on all snipes, and increase the base recharge to 45s. This makes them better as alpha strikes, better as spike damage (when insta'd), and (about) half as important to sustained DPS - in other words, a useful but situational ability. Plus, it means a blaster can alternate popping Aim and Build Up to always make it instant whenever it comes off cooldown - Corruptors and Defenders get to decide if they want to tie themselves in knots for half of the time the snipe will be up without Aim. Damage-wise, this makes snipes a bit less than 90% as effective as a stealthed Assassin strike, and almost 25% better than a critical unstealthed Assassin strike - but on three times the cooldown. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I I don't think it is good for a special, tactical attack to be this valued, and I definitely don't like that value in a gated mechanic across multiple sets, because ranged sets were not designed with that type of gated mechanic as a defining feature.
... Objectively, ranged sets can't have snipes as an integral attack because not all sets have snipes. I have no problem adding an interesting gate for snipes as is proposed and I think what is behind the gate should be good. I just don't think it should elevate ranged sets DPA chains by 25% or more. Not because ranged sets shouldn't get an increase at least that large, but because that increase shouldn't be tied to snipes. Sure, that is subjective, but it is supported by legacy. I do recognize that calling the snipes set defining is subjective as well. I have to admit I do not think they are so good that they must be taken. I do think they are pretty close though, and I don't think they need to be in order for snipes to be worthwhile. |
I know this undoes a lot of the individual set-balancing this change would make (like salvaging AR and Dev from the dustbin), but the devs could do that separately without altering how most blast sets play.
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Hypothetically speaking, what would you say if snipes had two benefits, one of which was the insta-snipe under tohit buffed conditions, and the other was something that cause the use of the snipe to make other attacks more valuable as follow up attacks, that would work all the time regardless of tohit. Take, as an example, Eagle's Claw. It will increase the critical chance of follow up attacks. Ignoring the mechanical oddities of that feature, if snipes made follow up attacks better, and *only* for blasters, and *always* regardless of situation, and the tohit based insta-snipe was just an added feature of the power, would you say that was too much capability for one power to have, even though a substantial part of that capability was always on, and therefore no different in principle from assassin's strike-concentrated buffs (and incidentally, whether stalkers were designed to be focused on AS, many stalkers didn't take it due to its mechanical issues so I believe the situation to be roughly analogous: many stalkers had to respec into AS to get the benefits because not all originally had it).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I don't think I can truly say that the current values are too high, objectively. What is the DPA of unhidden Assassin Strike with 3 stacks of Focus? 3 DS/second or higher? I would not argue that the DS/second of insta-snipes is too high for balance concerns.
I am not looking at this in terms of overbuffing blasters (which this certainly doesn't do), rather I am thinking it overbuffs snipes, but for subjective reasons. I don't think it is good for a special, tactical attack to be this valued, and I definitely don't like that value in a gated mechanic across multiple sets, because ranged sets were not designed with that type of gated mechanic as a defining feature. Stalker's Assassin Strike was already gated, so adding another gate to it, and keeping that power integral to the AT was reasonable. It also helps that every set actually has Assassin Strike. So I object to it for both reasons you mention. I just don't think the snipers should be that good for DPA AND I don't think ranged sets should end up with an AT defining gate. Objectively, ranged sets can't have snipes as an integral attack because not all sets have snipes. I have no problem adding an interesting gate for snipes as is proposed and I think what is behind the gate should be good. I just don't think it should elevate ranged sets DPA chains by 25% or more. Not because ranged sets shouldn't get an increase at least that large, but because that increase shouldn't be tied (solely) to snipes. Sure, that is subjective, but it is supported by legacy. I do recognize that calling the snipes set defining is subjective as well. I have to admit I do not think they are so good that they must be taken. I do think they are pretty close though, and I don't think they need to be in order for snipes to be worthwhile. |
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An interesting solution might be to work around the existing "Interrupt" duration mechanic. Obviously that mechanic has lost it's point over time.
What if 40% interrupt duration removed the interrupt period and 80% gave you the ability to move while casting? Alternatively, to make Sniper sets more useful - what if 10% interrupt duration is translated into 2% tohit for the purpose of accessing this new mechanic.
Some secondaries and ATs would still benefit more, of course.
Also- Defiance. Defiance for sniper attacks is super low.
I'm hoping for Defiance 3.0 soon. Forget Blasters not being top DPS, they really don't have much else to offer to themselves or their team.
I'd be in love with Blasters again if they could always cast while running, maybe jack up the Endurance cost, maybe by giving them a toggle that costs end and reduces tohit, or something perhaps?
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I would propose that the fast snipe animation times all have 1 second added back in (but still no interrupt).
Those that would have been 0.67, become 1.67 (1.848 arcanatime).
1 second becomes 2 (2.244)
1.33 seconds becomes 2.33 (2.508)
1.67 seconds becomes 2.67 (2.904)
This allows the animation to look nicer, still allows the snipes to have very solid DPA, while not focusing quite so much improvement into just one power (and the one to-hit mechanic).
Other stuff should be done to help range sets as well, of course, but I think the snipes would be much more reasonably positioned at the animation times I listed.
I don't know that I agree with adding a flat amount of time to all snipes, it would seem to be better to standardize all of the snipes at a fixed activation time for the fast snipe.