Proposed Snipe Changes - Please no "Magic Number" for useful snipes
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-21 10:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'm not a fan of this proposed change either. Major win for Corruptors, would be a win for Defenders except Corruptors exist and this is just another way for Corruptors to continue outdamaging them, unremarkable for Dominators (who need neither the boost nor another mechanic that becomes perma once you get your end game build), not that great for Blasters. I'm glad to hear they are thinking about snipes, but I don't agree with the proposed change.
It's also nice that they are thinking about Devices. But I would be much happier if we just said Blasters don't get snipes, that's a Defender/Corruptor thing, and what Blasters have is just a really hard hitting fast casting blast that happens to occupy the same slot.
I wonder if it possible to have the interrupt time decrease as you get more to-hit? Like if the interrupt time is 3 seconds base...and you get 11% to-hit on you, if they could have the interrupt reduce to 1.5 seconds. Basically it goes away by 22% but even if you can only get to 20%, you'll get it down to a fraction of a second interrupt.
Quote:
While better, there would still be one number to build for at which point the snipe is better than your alternatives for your attack chain.
|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
I wonder if it possible to have the interrupt time decrease as you get more to-hit? Like if the interrupt time is 3 seconds base...and you get 11% to-hit on you, if they could have the interrupt reduce to 1.5 seconds. Basically it goes away by 22% but even if you can only get to 20%, you'll get it down to a fraction of a second interrupt.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Why, conceptually, would it make sense to be able to blind-fire off a sniper shot at a target just because you happened to shoot a couple times previously?
|
The second shot is easier than the first. Think Lee Harvey Oswald who got 3 shots off in 6 seconds on a moving target.
Quote:
Absolutely. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
Thinking about it...they should have made it rely on a certain number of defiance stacks...for Blasters.
Makes sense conceptually...if you assume that "charging up" is the cast time on snipes and the defiance stacks... ...before a fight...if you want to use a snipe...you have to "charge up" to use it...but in the middle of a fight...you're already constantly "charged" by your constant attacking...allowing you to use this attack much more efficiently. |
Blasters needed better damage anyway, tieing that better damage to a power that was avoided and then making it situational is ridiculous on the face of it.
You would hope that the hybrid debacle was actually heard in paragon studios.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm not a fan of this proposed change either. Major win for Corruptors, would be a win for Defenders except Corruptors exist and this is just another way for Corruptors to continue outdamaging them,
|
Would this not hold true to pretty much any Snipe DPA improvement?
If all snipes were suddenly turned into a "T4" blast, with no interrupt or wind up at all, it would still favor Corruptors.. The only way I could see Snipes favoring Defenders is if the devs decided to add hefty debuff values to them, values that were drastically juiced up on Defenders.
Corruptor vs Defender balance issues aside, I don't see what the problem is with Snipe being more powerful on a Corruptor, it's kind of their thing to do more damage, is it not?
Regardless, if changes like this come down the tube my Time/Rad defender is likely to be very happy, A quick snipe should help fix her rather lackluster single target DPS woes.
-Edit -
Not to mention, reaching the magical number on Defenders is a bit easier, and saves a few slots. (think it just takes 2 slotted Tactics, and Kismet, where corrs have to have something like 4 slots)
As for the proposed change, I guess ideally the snipe bonus could ramp up as your To-Hit increases, but coding that is probably out of the question.
That way if your short of the "magic number" you still have a nicely improved snipe, instead of the all-or-nothing nature of it now.
If not that, then maybe break points? 5/10/15/22 .. Still a lot of work for them, but might be feasible..
Quote:
It is in Corrs to be more damaging. I think the problem lies in that Defenders don't generally do more debuffing, or not enough to make up for it. Same -Regen numbers, only slightly higher -resist, that doesn't always make that big of a difference.|
Originally Posted by Primantiss
Would this not hold true to pretty much any Snipe DPA improvement?
If all snipes were suddenly turned into a "T4" blast, with no interrupt or wind up at all, it would still favor Corruptors.. The only way I could see Snipes favoring Defenders is if the devs decided to add hefty debuff values to them, values that were drastically juiced up on Defenders. Corruptor vs Defender balance issues aside, I don't see what the problem is with Snipe being more powerful on a Corruptor, it's kind of their thing to do more damage, is it not? Regardless, if changes like this come down the tube my Time/Rad defender is likely to be very happy, A quick snipe should help fix her rather lackluster single target DPS woes. -Edit - Not to mention, reaching the magical number on Defenders is a bit easier, and saves a few slots. (think it just takes 2 slotted Tactics, and Kismet, where corrs have to have something like 4 slots) |
Personally, I thinkt he change helps all the blast ATs just as well, but people will still see it better on the Corr.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
If the devs want Build-Up and Aim to temporarily turn snipes into a useful, high DPA attack (the way unstealthed Assasin's Strike now works), tie a buff of some sort to those abilities. The current proposed solution puts everyone who doesn't take a microscope to their build at a significant disadvantage.
|
Not all Primary sets get Aim. Not all Secondary sets get Build Up.
Some combinations such as AR/Dev and DP/Dev get neither.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
What if they just tied it to Accuracy on intended target of 90%-95%. This way it will only have the orange circle if your target is "easy" to hit. Building for Accuracy is so much more generic to ALL builds. Heck, against even cons, you don't need ANY additional help to hit this value. The BIG problem that some may not see is that enemies that "debuff" your accuracy are going to seriously "screw" over a build that tries to advantage "sniper" attacks in regular combat.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Because it's suppossed to be tied to the likes of AIM, BU and what have you. All powers that give ToHit.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
What if they just tied it to Accuracy on intended target of 90%-95%. This way it will only have the orange circle if your target is "easy" to hit. Building for Accuracy is so much more generic to ALL builds. Heck, against even cons, you don't need ANY additional help to hit this value. The BIG problem that some may not see is that enemies that "debuff" your accuracy are going to seriously "screw" over a build that tries to advantage "sniper" attacks in regular combat.
|
It's a good idea.
Even if you can't perma Fast Snipe, it's still very useful to pick up the Snipe power and just use it whenever you hit BU or AIM.
Instead of looking at it as "Can I perma it" look at it as "Can I make use of it?" And yes, every set with a Snipe can make use of this ability in some way, even if that means swallowing down Yellow Inspirations when needed.
Outside of Assault Rifle (and Dark Blast for Def/Corr) I believe every true blast sets has a AIM power to go along with it's Snipe power.
Of course, I'm not counting Dominators, Stalkers or Scrappers here.
This is a nice change, and it helps Blasters. Don't worry if a Def/Corr can perma it easier, does the change help and make better Blasters? Imo, yes it does.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I just realised another annoying side effect of this. Lots of my scrappers (And other scrapper builds I see) have Tactics in the build either as a set mule, or to be activated when really needed. Now blasters are going to complain if we don't run the power.
I also think tying it to a magic number like this is a bad idea, it just means that some sets can leverage it and others can't, which creates unnecessary disparity. Either have it set to something that all sets can reach with a bit of effort, or something that no sets can reach alone. Or as mentioned in this thread tie it directly into BU/Aim if that was the intention.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I also think tying it to a magic number like this is a bad idea, it just means that some sets can leverage it and others can't, which creates unnecessary disparity. Either have it set to something that all sets can reach with a bit of effort, or something that no sets can reach alone. Or as mentioned in this thread tie it directly into BU/Aim if that was the intention. |
So which sets can't reach this even if it's only temporary?
As also mentioned in this thread tying it to BU/AIM doesn't work at all since not all sets have BU/AIM
Remember being able to make it perma is a side effect and not the intended operating standard for this particular change.
Quote:
I've already covered why this isn't neccessarily true on page 1, nice try though.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The second shot is easier than the first. Think Lee Harvey Oswald who got 3 shots off in 6 seconds on a moving target.
|
Quote:
It isn't usually a good idea to have side effects (Good or bad) that some people can make use of and other cannot.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
So which sets can't reach this even if it's only temporary?
As also mentioned in this thread tying it to BU/AIM doesn't work at all since not all sets have BU/AIM Remember being able to make it perma is a side effect and not the intended operating standard for this particular change. |
If the intention was that it should be a once every so often ability then they should have used a different mechanic.
It is unfair that certain sets will be able to spam their snipe and others will not, because god knows they all need the boost.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
|
Well the thing is everyone can make use of this. Some combinations can do it easier than others though.
As for using some other mechanic, after the change to AS for Stalkers people began planning out ways to do the same for Snipes. The problem with Snipes was finding a trigger that's available to all the different AT's that have Snipes available. +To-Hit is one of the few player's can feasibly control on their own.
Quote:
Which is the exact issue.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Well the thing is everyone can make use of this. Some combinations can do it easier than others though.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DMystic
As for using some other mechanic, after the change to AS for Stalkers people began planning out ways to do the same for Snipes. The problem with Snipes was finding a trigger that's available to all the different AT's that have Snipes available. +To-Hit is one of the few player's can feasibly control on their own.
|
It also leads to situations where you might not have as much fun on a team if nobody else has Tactics, which is a pretty bad piece of game design.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
|
Well we won't be able to really tell how good this is until it hits beta.
If it isn't accomplishing what it needs to I'm sure the required amount can be lowered.
Quote:
Sometimes, not usually. Maybe even rarely. It is likely true that more often than not there should be side effects some people can make better use of than others (and the others get their own side effects they do better than others).|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
It isn't usually a good idea to have side effects (Good or bad) that some people can make use of and other cannot.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
If the intention was that it should be a once every so often ability then they should have used a different mechanic.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
It is unfair that certain sets will be able to spam their snipe and others will not, because god knows they all need the boost.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is unfair my Fire blaster gets Blaze. It is unfair my Ice blaster gets Freeze Ray. It is unfair my SS brute gets Rage and Foot Stomp. It is unfair my Grav controller's AoE stun can also position spawns. Lots of things are unfair depending how you look at it. |
I think you missed it. If you buy Arcanavile's line that all blasters were still significantly underperforming with defiance 2.0 then any change meant to help blasters that doesn't actually help all blasters is unfair.
It gets worse when you look at the fact, this actually helps defenders and corruptors even more than it does blasters.
Quote:
That's a logical fallacy.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I think you missed it. If you buy Arcanavile's line that all blasters were still significantly underperforming with defiance 2.0 then any change meant to help blasters that doesn't actually help all blasters is unfair.
It gets worse when you look at the fact, this actually helps defenders and corruptors even more than it does blasters. |
Were Blasters underperforming? Yes
Were some Blasters underperforming more than others? Yes.
So while a fix to Blasters should aim to improve all Blasters it doesn't necessarily need to improve them all by the same amount. The Sustainability buff does aim to increase the performance of all Blasters by a relatively set amount which will (hopefully) fix the first problem. The other buffs (FastSnipe and longer range for T3s) are not going to be equally applicable for all Blasters but will (hopefully) decrease the performance spread between combos. Saying that all changes should beenfit all Blasters is illogical, Arbiter_Hawk said he is going to reduce animation times for Dual Pistols, should all Blasters sets get the same percentage reduction in animation times? Of course not, Dual Pistols has problems with long animation times but not all blast sets do.
So taken as a whole the changes being made do boost the performance of all Blasters but some combos get boosted more than others. To use an example one of the combos that is getting the largest benefit from the changes is AR/Dev but this is a combo that is widely considered to be under-performing even by the standards of Blasters.
Now I'm not saying that the changes as they are are perfect because I don't think they are but I also don't think that they need to boost all Blasters by the same amount. As long as the changes bring all Blasters up to a reasonable level of performance I'm fine if the relative order for which Blasters are "best" changes a bit.
There are suggestions that various people have made which make sense and I suspect we'll see further changes once I24 hits beta. In particular while I'm fine with not all Blasters getting perma-FastSnipe I do think that Build Up should be buffed to the point where it grants FastSnipe with, at most, one To Hit SO. I'd also be ok with a To Hit bonus being added to Defiance so that a Blaster who builds to take advantage of it can get reasonably permanent FastSnipe using Tactics, Kismet and Defiance.
Quote:
There are combinations that are getting 0 boost from the changes. Logically if all blasters were underperforming and you get 0 improvement you will still be underperforming.
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
That's a logical fallacy.
Were Blasters underperforming? Yes Were some Blasters underperforming more than others? Yes. |
Quote:
Will my blaster get mez protection and longer mezzes too from Domination? |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd also be ok with a To Hit bonus being added to Domination so that a Blaster who builds to take advantage of it can get reasonably permanent FastSnipe using Tactics, Kismet and Domination.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Sonic/Mental and Ice/Mental blasters UNITE!!!|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
There are combinations that are getting 0 boost from the changes. Logically if all blasters were underperforming and you get 0 improvement you will still be underperforming.
|
Picturing all the mitigation those particular combinations have makes me wonder if they were kind of OK? That said, in addition to thinking the sustain changes are not enough, I do think Drain Psyche should be adjusted as well.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I guess some Stalkers might take it to give a strong opening by doing Build Up -> Assassin's Strike -> Snipe.
Claws Scrappers could as well but they'd have to deal with the redraw.
And that's with just one buff of Power Siphon, which I believe can be made Perma.
A Dark Melee/INV/Soul or Mu can pull it off as well with Perma Soul Drain and the use of Tactics and Kismet.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection